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Kingdom Hearts III - 'Lost Masters'???



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Prince Enigma

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To those who have yet to see the trailer for Kingdom Hearts 2.5 Remix, I suggest you do so, as this thread will contain a small spoiler from the end of the trailer regarding Kingdom Hearts 3.

So, I know the trailer was for 2.5, and I like everyone else am hugely excited for it, even more so with the trailer showing the KH2 FM and BBS FM scenes included! But also at the end we got a very small hint at what to expect in Kingdom Hearts 3. A reference to 'Lost Masters' specifically at the time of the Keyblade War.

While I initially thought Aqua, she was the only master of the BBS trio so its more likely a ref. to the original Keyblade masters who fought in the war, and, confirming a personal fear of mine that there would be new, original characters being introduced into Kingdom Hearts 3 and it looks like in the form of these 'Lost Masters' that Xehanort is no doubt going to be either using alongside his True Org. XIII (including his as of yet unidentified six unseen members) and also taking time away from the characters we already have and deserve to see get more screen time.

Anyways, (ranting over) what does everyone else think about this Kingdom Hearts 3 hint in the trailer, and what do you think the 'Lost Masters' are/could be?
 

axel95

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I haven't played Chi, so the details may be a little fuzzy. I think that the Lost Masters are the four from Chi. Sora and the gang are probably going to be racing the new Org. 13 to find something the Lost Masters left behind, or the Masters themselves.
 

Solo

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If I have to place a bet, I'd say the lost masters are the Foretellers in Chi.

For those who aren't familiar with Chi, each union is led by their own Foretellers. There are five unions, hence five Foretellers: Ursus, Vulpeus, Anguis, Unicornis, and Leopardus. They are Keyblade wielders with extraordinary prowess who quite possibly possess the title of Keyblade Master as well, and it does seem that they have their own agenda in using the light (Lux) the union members gather for them.
 

Sephiroth0812

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I'm also placing the bet on the foretellers.

The interesting part comes though when we remember that Terra is to be rumored as being already (unwillingly) part of the thirteen seekers according to Xehanort's speech, bringing the number of "known" members up to seven:

- Master Xehanort
- Xemnas
- Ansem
- Xigbar/Braig
- Saix/Isa
- Young Xehanort
- a form of Terra(-Xehanort).

That leaves six free positions and there are/were five foretellers.
If the Foretellers were to be seekers, only the thirteenth (last) member would be missing.
Let Xehanort fill that place with Vanitas and we already have our thirteen seekers.

I wouldn't put it past Nomura to send Riku and Mickey on a ultimatively futile search for the "lost masters" (which btw also means that searching for Aqua, Ven and Terra falls back into Sora's hands) because Xehanort already got somehow a hold on them.
 

Zeke_Aileron

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If I have to place a bet, I'd say the lost masters are the Foretellers in Chi.

For those who aren't familiar with Chi, each union is led by their own Foretellers. There are five unions, hence five Foretellers: Ursus, Vulpeus, Anguis, Unicornis, and Leopardus. They are Keyblade wielders with extraordinary prowess who quite possibly possess the title of Keyblade Master as well, and it does seem that they have their own agenda in using the light (Lux) the union members gather for them.

Don't forget there was a 6th Foreteller that had no direct association to the main 5 Foretellers, so that said person could also be one of the lost masters.
 

Sephiroth0812

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That person whoever it is isn't a foreteller though, as Chirithy says that there where only five books of prophecy given out by the "grand master", not six.
All we know is that this sixth person was also a follower/student of that ominuous "grand master", but what exactly he/she was isn't elaborated upon.
 

Solo

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In addition, the Foretellers do have one thing in common with Master Xehanort: their respective Keyblades have this blue eye embedded on the key chain. MX's Keyblade has one as well, though on the shaft instead of the key chain. The clock-themed No Name Keyblade, wielded by Young Xehanort when MX took possession of his body, does, too.

Also, I'm not sure if I'm seeing things that aren't there (I think I am), but the Unicornis Foreteller seems to resemble MX somewhat. That metallic piece he (assuming the Foreteller is a he) wears on his head forms a goatee-like extension on the chin. Of course, anyone could wear that piece and look like MX especially with most of their face obscured, but still... I can already envision a face resembling MX's hidden underneath that unicorn mask.

Spoiler Spoiler Show


The blue eyes, though, have to say something. There's no way they are there for no reason. I wouldn't be surprised if later on MX turns out to be connected to the Foretellers somehow. It could be that he was the sixth disciple, it could be that he was the Unicornis Foreteller, or something else, we don't know. But that said, I'm putting dibs on the possibility of a relation existing between MX and the Foretellers.
 
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MATGSY

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I assumed it refers to the casualties of the KBW at the Keyblade Graveyard.
 

Sephiroth0812

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In addition, the Foretellers do have one thing in common with Master Xehanort: their respective Keyblades have this blue eye embedded on the key chain. MX's Keyblade has one as well, though on the shaft instead of the key chain.

Also, I'm not sure if I'm seeing things that aren't there (I think I am), but the Unicornis Foreteller seems to resemble MX somewhat. That metallic piece he (assuming the Foreteller is a he) wears on his head forms a goatee-like extension on the chin. Of course, anyone could wear that piece and look like MX especially with most of their face obscured, but still... I can already envision a face resembling MX's hidden underneath that unicorn mask.

Spoiler Spoiler Show


The blue eyes, though, have to say something. There's no way they are there for no reason. I wouldn't be surprised if later on MX turns out to be connected to the Foretellers somehow. It could be that he was the sixth disciple, it could be that he was the Unicornis Foreteller, we don't know, but I'm putting dibs on the possibility of a relation existing between MX and the Foretellers.

To be honest that looks more like the metallic jaw-piece Vanitas wears than anything MX-like.

So far we know only that this "blue demonic" eye has something to do with Darkness, as all shown items sporting that emblem had something to do with Darkness and were mostly used to cause destruction.
Considering the time of the Foretellers and the whole Keyblade War is said to have happened tens of thousands of years ago Xehanort logically couldn't be anyone of them nor the sixth follower as according to history all of them experienced the Keyblade War first-hand.
Xehanort in his curiosity and madness yearns to know what exactly happened during the Keyblade War and thus seeks to restart it even if that means the end of everything. He wouldn't need to do that and seek these "answers" if he was already present at that time since he would have experienced it first-hand either as a foreteller or as the sixth disciple...

I won't deny that there is possibly a connection/relation between Xehanort and the foretellers, but I doubt it'll be something that results in Xehanort being actually alive during the times of the Keyblade War.

No, in fact I'm thinking about a more sinister variant and a twist that would be worthy of Nomura. I don't play Chi and thus do not exactly know how the foretellers act and what they do, but the fact that they have this eye on their Keyblades, the tomes they got apparently "predicting" the future and the phrase "light falls to darkness", I'm actually suspecting that the Foretellers are the ones who eventually bring about the Keyblade War themselves, possibly because each one deciding that he/she possesses the right path/strategy to avert the apocalypse and thus should be the only one leading the "forces of light". Under the Foreteller's leadership, the unions turn against each other and one wielder after the other falls to darkness.
This way, the Foretellers bring about the very apocalypse they wanted and fought to prevent by their own actions, possibly even driven mad by the books of prophecy they possessed because the events predicted there were what got them to take up arms in the first place.
The sixth follower, the only one without a book, would be the only one to remain sane and possibly even the one who helped and guided the surviving children to eventually rebuild the world.

Going from that assumption, there is this snippet from the Xehanort reports in BBS:
Xehanort's Report II said:
Our Master instructed us to don armor while traveling between worlds, so that we might shield ourselves from the darkness. But there, in the Lanes Between, I could feel the force of it—the power—and from then on, I forwent my armor's "protection." I had been told the darkness would devour me, but what terrors could it possibly hold, so long as I found the strength to control it?

Then there is this from the new teaser:
E3 Teaser said:
Then I take it you also know of the "lost masters"

On that land shall darkness prevail and light expire. But you knew that, didn't you?

We already have a place where "darkness prevails", that being the RoD itself and, curiously, the lanes between themselves.
When Xehanort stopped to use his armor and went travelling without protection from the Darkness, who is to say that he didn't meet something or someone out there? Something or someone "lost" out in that sea of darkness since ancient times.
It is said that Xehanort gained much of his current knowledge from very vast and long travels, yet who says that those travels had to be all within some specific worlds?

In DDD, Ansem SoD tells Riku that "Darkness holds our sleep" and Ansem the Wise later speaks of "Hearts sleeping in darkness" like Roxas, Ven and Xion do within Sora's heart. However, worlds have hearts as well and I assume that the original, undivided world also had a heart.
What if all the people of the old world, including the foretellers, who perished in the grand apocalypse that destroyed everything, are actually "still around" in the form of their hearts sleeping somewhere just like Roxas, Ven and Xion do within Sora?
This somewhere would be of course for most existences the true, original Kingdom Hearts itself, but what if some hearts were for whatever reason not returned to KH but sleep somewhere hidden in the darkness of the lanes between or the RoD? These would be as "lost" as the tormented ones Sora is supposed to save who are connected to his own heart (TAV, Roxas, Naminé, Xion and AtW).
I wouldn't put it past Nomura that Xehanort, having essentially the same ability to connect hearts as Sora, somehow made "contact" with the hearts of one or more of the foretellers, gaining some information from connecting with them. Since I doubt the foreteller's were all-knowing, the snippets of info Xehanort would get from them would only serve to increase his curiosity even more, leading to his increasing obsession to maybe find the hearts of the other foretellers, maybe even the sixth disciple and one of the books of prophecy in order to gain knowledge not only on what exactly happened in the Keyblade War, but also on the true nature of the X-blade and the true KH.
 

Solo

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Ah, it seems you missed a minor edit but substantial edit on my post in which I said "or something else". In hindsight, I wouldn't think that the relation is that obvious either, since as you said Master Xehanort was curious to see the outcome of the Keyblade War with his own eyes. He wouldn't have gone through all the trouble had he actually been someone from the past, that is to say a survivor of the Keyblade War aeons ago.

As for the events foretold on the last page of the Script, yeah, it is possible that they had actually taken place in the past, being the age of darkness that followed the Keyblade War itself. The scenario of the unions turning against each other isn't that far-fetched a guess, really, as the game tells that the light gathered by each union is used by the respective Foretellers for purposes yet unknown. The fact that each union also competes each week to see who can gather the most light might indicate something as well, although it might only be mere game mechanics. Thus, reiterating what you said, the prophecy doesn't need to fulfil itself in KH3 as it does seem that it had been fulfilled.

Back to Xehanort, this discussion about the possibility of him being related or connected to the Foretellers reminds me of an ages-old theory I've seen floating about somewhere that Xehanort himself is an amnesiac entity of someone from the olden days, those of the Keyblade War itself, who actually managed to keep living on by body-hopping, and that even his current body is not his own. But I really don't think Nomura would go with that as it would just be... I don't know, I just don't think I could sit well with that.
 

luna1017

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I am personally hoping everyone is right about the "Old Masters" being the Foretellers. If KHIII really is the last game of the Kingdom Hearts series, I'd rather they not end it with introducing new characters, especially if they're given so much focus and importance.

New question now: Who are those two people talking in the trailer and are they important?
 

OathkeeperRoxas XIII

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I am personally hoping everyone is right about the "Old Masters" being the Foretellers. If KHIII really is the last game of the Kingdom Hearts series, I'd rather they not end it with introducing new characters, especially if they're given so much focus and importance.

New question now: Who are those two people talking in the trailer and are they important?


Sorray if what I say is harsh, but didn't you keep up with any news? KHIII is the Finale of the XEHANORT saga, not the series.
 

Solo

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New question now: Who are those two people talking in the trailer and are they important?

The one on the left is Young Xehanort, and the one on the right, Young Eraqus. I believe their identities alone say something about their importance. ;)

Sorray if what I say is harsh, but didn't you keep up with any news? KHIII is the Finale of the XEHANORT saga, not the series.

I do think that her point is not without merit, though. Introducing at the end of the saga an entirely new character who will play a huge role (I must stress that) might not be the best route to take, as it would require working a whole lot of background information and backstory into the game so as to justify his / her late inclusion into the picture and make him / her a well developed character.

To be frank, the resources and effort are better used to develop and / or characterise those to whom development and / or characterisation is overdue, such as Kairi.
 

Prince Enigma

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I haven't played Chi, so the details may be a little fuzzy. I think that the Lost Masters are the four from Chi. Sora and the gang are probably going to be racing the new Org. 13 to find something the Lost Masters left behind, or the Masters themselves.

I haven't played Chi either, though I do want to. I like the idea of Sora and co racing against Xehanort's Org. to try and find something these Lost Masters left behind (a secret weapon? wait, no, that sounds too familiar...), it sounds like (with the information we have thus far) that KH3's story needs a little plumping here and there.

If I have to place a bet, I'd say the lost masters are the Foretellers in Chi.

For those who aren't familiar with Chi, each union is led by their own Foretellers. There are five unions, hence five Foretellers: Ursus, Vulpeus, Anguis, Unicornis, and Leopardus. They are Keyblade wielders with extraordinary prowess who quite possibly possess the title of Keyblade Master as well, and it does seem that they have their own agenda in using the light (Lux) the union members gather for them.

Thank you for filling me in on what and who the Foretellers are. Now I don't have a problem if these Lost Masters are these Foretellers, it sounds like the lore about them could fit in quite nicely to KH3 and it would be awesome to see varying degrees of power amongst Keyblade wielders in the game should the Foretellers be these Lost Masters. I'm not sure, I sadly haven't played Chi like I've said so I don't know much about there skills with a Keyblade but from what you've said they sound like they know there stuff.
It would be preferable that these Lost Masters aren't original new characters Nomura is thinking about chucking in the game only to have them killed off at the end. He NEEDS to stop doing that!

I'm also placing the bet on the foretellers.

The interesting part comes though when we remember that Terra is to be rumored as being already (unwillingly) part of the thirteen seekers according to Xehanort's speech, bringing the number of "known" members up to seven:

- Master Xehanort
- Xemnas
- Ansem
- Xigbar/Braig
- Saix/Isa
- Young Xehanort
- a form of Terra(-Xehanort).

That leaves six free positions and there are/were five foretellers.
If the Foretellers were to be seekers, only the thirteenth (last) member would be missing.
Let Xehanort fill that place with Vanitas and we already have our thirteen seekers.

I wouldn't put it past Nomura to send Riku and Mickey on a ultimatively futile search for the "lost masters" (which btw also means that searching for Aqua, Ven and Terra falls back into Sora's hands) because Xehanort already got somehow a hold on them.

I like your idea of these Foretellers/Lost Masters filling up the empty seats in Xehanort's Org. that way we wouldn't have any stupid inclusions Nomura threw in just for the fun of it. You know, like Xaldin for example and him being all like 'By the way, Xaldin was wearing contacts and ACTUALLY has gold eyes too!' Vanitas also kind of has to be in it right? If that scene from DDD is anything to go by.
I also think no matter what way the story goes, one group of the main characters whether it be Lea and Kairi, or Riku and Mickey, or Sora, Donald and Goofy, ONE group will be going on some useless, plot-filling/wasting search for something or other.

I assumed it refers to the casualties of the KBW at the Keyblade Graveyard.

I thought that too, and sincerely hoped that wasn't the case because it would mean introducing new characters which shouldn't happen in KH3 what with the already insane no. of characters we already have that need proper resolving. I think now it could be these Foretellers who are these Lost Masters, and it would be much better route to go down, especially if they are also to be the other members of Xehanort's Org.

Back to Xehanort, this discussion about the possibility of him being related or connected to the Foretellers reminds me of an ages-old theory I've seen floating about somewhere that Xehanort himself is an amnesiac entity of someone from the olden days, those of the Keyblade War itself, who actually managed to keep living on by body-hopping, and that even his current body is not his own. But I really don't think Nomura would go with that as it would just be... I don't know, I just don't think I could sit well with that.

While I quite like that theory, I also don't think Nomura will do that. We all know Xehanort's gonna get it some way or another in KH3, there's not much point giving him even more of a backstory. The old coot's convoluting polluting enough already.

I am personally hoping everyone is right about the "Old Masters" being the Foretellers. If KHIII really is the last game of the Kingdom Hearts series, I'd rather they not end it with introducing new characters, especially if they're given so much focus and importance.

New question now: Who are those two people talking in the trailer and are they important?

I agree with you here for reasons mentioned above.
 

luna1017

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The one on the left is Young Xehanort, and the one on the right, Young Eraqus. I believe their identities alone say something about their importance. ;)
Oooh O_O yeah I agree with that.


I do think that her point is not without merit, though. Introducing at the end of the saga an entirely new character who will play a huge role (I must stress that) might not be the best route to take, as it would require working a whole lot of background information and backstory into the game so as to justify his / her late inclusion into the picture and make him / her a well developed character.

To be frank, the resources and effort are better used to develop and / or characterise those to whom development and / or characterisation is overdue, such as Kairi.

Once more, I agree with you on that. I'd rather they develop characters like Kairi instead of introducing a new character and dumping a background on us. I'm fine, though, if they just simply introduce a new character without giving that much importance then giving them importance in the following games. You know how when they first introduced Organization XIII, the other members weren't given that much background? How it was a bit like "Ok here are some bad guys. Fight them. They'll be important later."? I'm okay with that. But if it can be helped, yeah I'm not for totally new characters.

Besides, I feel introducing new characters, leaving old ones undeveloped and not making use of the really mysterious ones will leave the story hanging. It won't come full circle. Unless they use those characters in the later games, of course.

Sorray if what I say is harsh, but didn't you keep up with any news? KHIII is the Finale of the XEHANORT saga, not the series.

Yes I've heard of that, but I wasn't sure how far they were actually willing to go with the series with Xehanort out of the picture. But since it seems official, then I stand corrected.They are going to continue with it. I still don't think they should end the saga with completely new characters with heavy backstories, though.
 

luna1017

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Not saying they're going to be dumped. I'm just saying it would be better to end an entire saga with at least sizable development for less-developed characters instead of introducing new ones with heavy backstories. There will surely be plenty of time to develop in the later games. But a saga is ending, and unless a character is meant to be mysterious, it's really best to develop the ones who were introduced at the very start of the series. Kairi's already going to learn to use the Keyblade. She's one of the major characters. They may as well end the saga with some development, then possibly develop more in the future games.

A saga can end with some loose ends to tie it to the next one. It's actually better that way to keep the fans excited. But it's different when they end with introducing completely new characters and focus on them while leaving the older and undeveloped ones hanging.
 

Gram

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To be honest that looks more like the metallic jaw-piece Vanitas wears than anything MX-like.

So far we know only that this "blue demonic" eye has something to do with Darkness, as all shown items sporting that emblem had something to do with Darkness and were mostly used to cause destruction.
Considering the time of the Foretellers and the whole Keyblade War is said to have happened tens of thousands of years ago Xehanort logically couldn't be anyone of them nor the sixth follower as according to history all of them experienced the Keyblade War first-hand.
Xehanort in his curiosity and madness yearns to know what exactly happened during the Keyblade War and thus seeks to restart it even if that means the end of everything. He wouldn't need to do that and seek these "answers" if he was already present at that time since he would have experienced it first-hand either as a foreteller or as the sixth disciple...

I won't deny that there is possibly a connection/relation between Xehanort and the foretellers, but I doubt it'll be something that results in Xehanort being actually alive during the times of the Keyblade War.

No, in fact I'm thinking about a more sinister variant and a twist that would be worthy of Nomura. I don't play Chi and thus do not exactly know how the foretellers act and what they do, but the fact that they have this eye on their Keyblades, the tomes they got apparently "predicting" the future and the phrase "light falls to darkness", I'm actually suspecting that the Foretellers are the ones who eventually bring about the Keyblade War themselves, possibly because each one deciding that he/she possesses the right path/strategy to avert the apocalypse and thus should be the only one leading the "forces of light". Under the Foreteller's leadership, the unions turn against each other and one wielder after the other falls to darkness.
This way, the Foretellers bring about the very apocalypse they wanted and fought to prevent by their own actions, possibly even driven mad by the books of prophecy they possessed because the events predicted there were what got them to take up arms in the first place.
The sixth follower, the only one without a book, would be the only one to remain sane and possibly even the one who helped and guided the surviving children to eventually rebuild the world.

Going from that assumption, there is this snippet from the Xehanort reports in BBS:


Then there is this from the new teaser:


We already have a place where "darkness prevails", that being the RoD itself and, curiously, the lanes between themselves.
When Xehanort stopped to use his armor and went travelling without protection from the Darkness, who is to say that he didn't meet something or someone out there? Something or someone "lost" out in that sea of darkness since ancient times.
It is said that Xehanort gained much of his current knowledge from very vast and long travels, yet who says that those travels had to be all within some specific worlds?

In DDD, Ansem SoD tells Riku that "Darkness holds our sleep" and Ansem the Wise later speaks of "Hearts sleeping in darkness" like Roxas, Ven and Xion do within Sora's heart. However, worlds have hearts as well and I assume that the original, undivided world also had a heart.
What if all the people of the old world, including the foretellers, who perished in the grand apocalypse that destroyed everything, are actually "still around" in the form of their hearts sleeping somewhere just like Roxas, Ven and Xion do within Sora?
This somewhere would be of course for most existences the true, original Kingdom Hearts itself, but what if some hearts were for whatever reason not returned to KH but sleep somewhere hidden in the darkness of the lanes between or the RoD? These would be as "lost" as the tormented ones Sora is supposed to save who are connected to his own heart (TAV, Roxas, Naminé, Xion and AtW).
I wouldn't put it past Nomura that Xehanort, having essentially the same ability to connect hearts as Sora, somehow made "contact" with the hearts of one or more of the foretellers, gaining some information from connecting with them. Since I doubt the foreteller's were all-knowing, the snippets of info Xehanort would get from them would only serve to increase his curiosity even more, leading to his increasing obsession to maybe find the hearts of the other foretellers, maybe even the sixth disciple and one of the books of prophecy in order to gain knowledge not only on what exactly happened in the Keyblade War, but also on the true nature of the X-blade and the true KH.
Back to Xehanort, this discussion about the possibility of him being related or connected to the Foretellers reminds me of an ages-old theory I've seen floating about somewhere that Xehanort himself is an amnesiac entity of someone from the olden days, those of the Keyblade War itself, who actually managed to keep living on by body-hopping, and that even his current body is not his own. But I really don't think Nomura would go with that as it would just be... I don't know, I just don't think I could sit well with that.
^(neither would I. It'd be an attempt to make Xehanort the "victim" which would undermine his character)


I wouldn't, in the slightest way, put most of this beyond possibility. We know darkness "holds sleep", we know hearts "return to darkness" (in which KH is currently lost) when a person perishes and we know that there are ways for hearts in slumber to held somewhere else. (like Roxas in Sora)

If I remember right the ability to connect hearts isn't an exclusive or special ability but one that everyone can do it's just that Sora is one of the few that does.
So Xehanort also using this wouldn't be a surprise to me either.

I've never played Chi myself but from what I've gathered here today these "foretellers" and their suspicious actions seem awfully parallel to Xehanorts.
If they truly did lead to the very war they wished to stop then they did so using others (unions), hoarding light and keeping secrets (uncertainty what they use the light gathered for) may have influenced a young Xehanort and his boundless curiosity.

These foretellers were among the first, if not original 5, users of the keyblade behind their "grand master" right? If so then their understanding of the heart as well as the master exclusive power of releasing hearts would make it very possible they found a way to seal themselves somewhere during the closing days of the war in a pitiful attempt at self preservation.
Eon's later you have Xehanort, curious as he is, accidentally stumbling across one of their seals and coming into contact with one of these foretellers. From there it'd only be a matter of him seeking the rest to sate his curiosity with the "lost masters" themselves, having long been corrupted, pulling Xehanort into madness with them.

I've always found it odd Xehanort could learn so much about how to make false kingdom hearts or even how to reforge the Xblade when such knowledge would've been better left forgotten. (meaning I don't see these as things masters would pass down)
And given the extreme oceans of time this war took place in the past, I highly doubt Xehanort would find any written records or even ruins of this event.
Even the keyblade Graveyard itself is just a large ass desert with thousands of "lifeless" keyblades.
 

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Ugh, I don't want to "read" about [chi] to speculate. I just want to play it~

Is it too hopeful to wish for a KHX localization announcement at E3? ;A;
 
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