▽;4786548 said:Can you imagine spiritual pain? I don't, so explain what that means. And i don't see how seperated from god is a bad thing. That ties in with the worship part. How can i love someone i've never met, i've never even seen or heard from? And what implicates our universe is an artificial product, instead of a process with no sentience behind it. Hope you can answer these.
How is the worshipping out of fear ignorant? The sheer fact is that worship is enough to land a criminal heaven is ridiculous. The criminal obviously lacked morals, and i seriously doubt he gains those all of a sudden. The fact that worship outweighs morals shows how unjust that god really is. All vile people that ever lived could end up in heaven that way, while a kind hearted person full of morals is dismissed simply because he wouldn't worship.
You could say that the poeple who murder in name of god or slander are no real christians. That is the no true scotmans fallacy, which is, as the name implies, not an argument but an error in thinking. The crusades were decreed and executed by people who really believed they were good christians. They thought they really followed god's word by spreading it, regardless of method. You might say these were no christians, but that's just trying to get rid of a black page to divert criticism. That would be like me saying that my forefathers never held slaves, only other nations did. Instead of denying you should admit they were wrong and try to learn from it.
I admit that I myself cannot imagine what that pain would feel like, but being completely separated from God, who is our creator would be a horrible thing. You don't see it as a bad thing now because you do not understand it or believe in it, but if you were to die and find out God is real, than you would truly be sorry you have been separated from him.
I understand your confusion about loving God, I myself have asked that before. You can learn about God and come to love him through prayer and reading the Bible. The Bible is God's eternal counsel and mind, and only through that book is anyone able to know him. By reading the Bible you know what God has done for you and that he loves you, as well as what you can do to show your love for him and please him.
Nobody absolutely knows how the universe is created. This discussion is not about the proof that God exists, and I am not trying to prove it because it's something you have to believe and have faith in (proof of God's existence is the same as proof that God created the universe). The Bible says God created the universe, but scientists can only make theories. If you believe in God, you have an answer; if you believe only in science, you are unanswered (or given possible answers). This is part of the main topic of the thread, the fact that it can go both ways, with neither argument absolutely beating the other. Because we will never know for sure until we die.
I didn't say worshipping out of fear was ignorant, I said your example was ignorant because you assumed that the criminal would be worshipping only out of fear. And you did not clearly read my post because worship alone is not enough to get into heaven. Once again this would just be "religion" if you only worshiped God, because how can you love and know someone just by worshipping them? You have to pray to God and read the Bible to accomplish this, and that combined with worship will get you salvation.
The whole thing about what you're saying that's wrong is you think Christianity is only about worshiping God and nothing else, just nothing but a bunch of worship, and you're mistaken. That's what the Hebrews did to golden idols after Moses led them out of Egypt, but their worship meant nothing at all because they were only worshiping empty idols who did not have minds and could not help the people. And again, it doesn't matter how much that criminal lacked in morals, everyone lacks in morals to some degree and therefore they're all imperfect. That's what you're not understanding; that person who has done good in his life has also done sinful things, it's something we all do. You can't make it on good works alone because of the sin inside of us. You have to love God, read the Bible, pray to God and live by his word, as well as worship him for the good things he has done. You're right, that criminal would have trouble adjusting to such things, but if his heart sincerely wanted to change it would be done. For you to doubt such things is to say people who have done evil are and will forever be evil.
How can one expect to be saved and enter God's kingdom if he denies God? Do you think they are entitled to be given eternal life by God when they say "God does not exist." If they reject the Lord, the Lord will reject them. But if they accept the Lord, he will accept them no matter what sins they have committed. Doesn't that make sense? It is not about simply doing good works in life. We are all deserving of hell, absolutely everyone. That's why Jesus asks us to accept him, because he has made the sacrifice for us and therefore through him we have a chance to be saved. Do you understand this?
For your last statement, I'm not denying at all what the Crusaders did or any other bad things Christians have done. However, your comparison is absolutely wrong. Nobody's trying to divert anything, but rather it's doing exactly what you said we should: admitting that what they did was wrong and learning from it. Those men who did those things in the name of God were Christians, but they were not doing godly things. This goes back to what I said before: we're all sinners and we do bad things. You mentioned that they believed they were doing good things; this is exactly what the Jews thought they were doing when they persecuted Jesus for breaking their laws and for claiming he was the Christ. The Jews sincerely thought they were right, but they failed to realize that Jesus was not breaking their laws, but fulfilling them. He was the messiah that they had been waiting for, but they did not realize it (just as it was prophecized by Isaiah).
You are not doing what I recommended: to assess if what people are doing is what God wants them to do (Of course if you are uneducated in the Bible it is hard to assess this so I understand). The Crusades were holy wars against the Muslims because we did not want to tolerate their religion or their spreading empire. In a sense the Crusaders were hating on the Muslims for not believing in God. But that's not what God wants us to do, he tells us to "love thy enemy", which is not what the Crusaders were doing. So it's not about being "real Christians" or not, it's about following God's word. Sincerely believing and accepting Jesus Christ makes you a Christian, but we will always be sinners.
So it's more like if you were to say, "My white fathers held slaves but they didn't think that was wrong. But I as their descendant now know that it was wrong so that is why I accept all races today."
As a final reminder: we're *ALL* sinners. People kill each other out of anger because they're sinners. People steal and lie and cheat because they're sinners. Men abuse and beat their wives because they're sinners. People with abundant wealth refuse to help the homeless because they're sinners. The reason we all do bad things is because *WE'RE SINNERS.* Even Christians. Even the Crusaders. When you decide to bring about more situations about the bad things Christians (or anyone else) have done, remember that it is because they're sinners and will always do bad things. The only man who was ever without sin was Jesus Christ.
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