it can go both ways

[Camilo101]

Can you imagine spiritual pain? I don't, so explain what that means. And i don't see how seperated from god is a bad thing. That ties in with the worship part. How can i love someone i've never met, i've never even seen or heard from? And what implicates our universe is an artificial product, instead of a process with no sentience behind it. Hope you can answer these.

How is the worshipping out of fear ignorant? The sheer fact is that worship is enough to land a criminal heaven is ridiculous. The criminal obviously lacked morals, and i seriously doubt he gains those all of a sudden. The fact that worship outweighs morals shows how unjust that god really is. All vile people that ever lived could end up in heaven that way, while a kind hearted person full of morals is dismissed simply because he wouldn't worship.

You could say that the poeple who murder in name of god or slander are no real christians. That is the no true scotmans fallacy, which is, as the name implies, not an argument but an error in thinking. The crusades were decreed and executed by people who really believed they were good christians. They thought they really followed god's word by spreading it, regardless of method. You might say these were no christians, but that's just trying to get rid of a black page to divert criticism. That would be like me saying that my forefathers never held slaves, only other nations did. Instead of denying you should admit they were wrong and try to learn from it.

I admit that I myself cannot imagine what that pain would feel like, but being completely separated from God, who is our creator would be a horrible thing. You don't see it as a bad thing now because you do not understand it or believe in it, but if you were to die and find out God is real, than you would truly be sorry you have been separated from him.

I understand your confusion about loving God, I myself have asked that before. You can learn about God and come to love him through prayer and reading the Bible. The Bible is God's eternal counsel and mind, and only through that book is anyone able to know him. By reading the Bible you know what God has done for you and that he loves you, as well as what you can do to show your love for him and please him.

Nobody absolutely knows how the universe is created. This discussion is not about the proof that God exists, and I am not trying to prove it because it's something you have to believe and have faith in (proof of God's existence is the same as proof that God created the universe). The Bible says God created the universe, but scientists can only make theories. If you believe in God, you have an answer; if you believe only in science, you are unanswered (or given possible answers). This is part of the main topic of the thread, the fact that it can go both ways, with neither argument absolutely beating the other. Because we will never know for sure until we die.

I didn't say worshipping out of fear was ignorant, I said your example was ignorant because you assumed that the criminal would be worshipping only out of fear. And you did not clearly read my post because worship alone is not enough to get into heaven. Once again this would just be "religion" if you only worshiped God, because how can you love and know someone just by worshipping them? You have to pray to God and read the Bible to accomplish this, and that combined with worship will get you salvation.

The whole thing about what you're saying that's wrong is you think Christianity is only about worshiping God and nothing else, just nothing but a bunch of worship, and you're mistaken. That's what the Hebrews did to golden idols after Moses led them out of Egypt, but their worship meant nothing at all because they were only worshiping empty idols who did not have minds and could not help the people. And again, it doesn't matter how much that criminal lacked in morals, everyone lacks in morals to some degree and therefore they're all imperfect. That's what you're not understanding; that person who has done good in his life has also done sinful things, it's something we all do. You can't make it on good works alone because of the sin inside of us. You have to love God, read the Bible, pray to God and live by his word, as well as worship him for the good things he has done. You're right, that criminal would have trouble adjusting to such things, but if his heart sincerely wanted to change it would be done. For you to doubt such things is to say people who have done evil are and will forever be evil.

How can one expect to be saved and enter God's kingdom if he denies God? Do you think they are entitled to be given eternal life by God when they say "God does not exist." If they reject the Lord, the Lord will reject them. But if they accept the Lord, he will accept them no matter what sins they have committed. Doesn't that make sense? It is not about simply doing good works in life. We are all deserving of hell, absolutely everyone. That's why Jesus asks us to accept him, because he has made the sacrifice for us and therefore through him we have a chance to be saved. Do you understand this?

For your last statement, I'm not denying at all what the Crusaders did or any other bad things Christians have done. However, your comparison is absolutely wrong. Nobody's trying to divert anything, but rather it's doing exactly what you said we should: admitting that what they did was wrong and learning from it. Those men who did those things in the name of God were Christians, but they were not doing godly things. This goes back to what I said before: we're all sinners and we do bad things. You mentioned that they believed they were doing good things; this is exactly what the Jews thought they were doing when they persecuted Jesus for breaking their laws and for claiming he was the Christ. The Jews sincerely thought they were right, but they failed to realize that Jesus was not breaking their laws, but fulfilling them. He was the messiah that they had been waiting for, but they did not realize it (just as it was prophecized by Isaiah).

You are not doing what I recommended: to assess if what people are doing is what God wants them to do (Of course if you are uneducated in the Bible it is hard to assess this so I understand). The Crusades were holy wars against the Muslims because we did not want to tolerate their religion or their spreading empire. In a sense the Crusaders were hating on the Muslims for not believing in God. But that's not what God wants us to do, he tells us to "love thy enemy", which is not what the Crusaders were doing. So it's not about being "real Christians" or not, it's about following God's word. Sincerely believing and accepting Jesus Christ makes you a Christian, but we will always be sinners.

So it's more like if you were to say, "My white fathers held slaves but they didn't think that was wrong. But I as their descendant now know that it was wrong so that is why I accept all races today."

As a final reminder: we're *ALL* sinners. People kill each other out of anger because they're sinners. People steal and lie and cheat because they're sinners. Men abuse and beat their wives because they're sinners. People with abundant wealth refuse to help the homeless because they're sinners. The reason we all do bad things is because *WE'RE SINNERS.* Even Christians. Even the Crusaders. When you decide to bring about more situations about the bad things Christians (or anyone else) have done, remember that it is because they're sinners and will always do bad things. The only man who was ever without sin was Jesus Christ.

 

[Ven-Dono]

As a final reminder: we're *ALL* sinners. People kill each other out of anger because they're sinners. People steal and lie and cheat because they're sinners. Men abuse and beat their wives because they're sinners. People with abundant wealth refuse to help the homeless because they're sinners. The reason we all do bad things is because *WE'RE SINNERS.* Even Christians. Even the Crusaders. When you decide to bring about more situations about the bad things Christians (or anyone else) have done, remember that it is because they're sinners and will always do bad things. The only man who was ever without sin was Jesus Christ.

Speak for yourself. I'm sure there's at least one person who hasn't done anything, nor will do any of those things on this forum.
And since when is it bad not to do charity? It's a good thing to do charity. But it doesn't make you evil not to share. Especially if you want your kids to have a good life.

It's just my mom and I at my home. She just lost her job. Am I going to go around begging? No. I see that as what you would call a "sin".

As for the wager.

Pascal's Wager really seems like a load of BS to me. I can't force myself to believe in God. If I don't believe in something, I don't believe in it. That's it. To persist, for me, would just be to pretend. And God would know that I was faking it right?

Sure, I could go to Church and study the Holy Bible consistently, but wouldn't it be a waste of time and pointless if I didn't actually believe?

Pascal must not have been such a devout Christian to have even produced such a wager.

If I could think of a just God, it would be one that would treasure honest skepticism over dishonest loyalties.

 

[Camilo101]

Speak for yourself. I'm sure there's at least one person who hasn't done anything, nor will do any of those things on this forum.
And since when is it bad not to do charity? It's a good thing to do charity. But it doesn't make you evil not to share. Especially if you want your kids to have a good life.

It's just my mom and I at my home. She just lost her job. Am I going to go around begging? No. I see that as what you would call a "sin".

As for the wager.

Pascal's Wager really seems like a load of BS to me. I can't force myself to believe in God. If I don't believe in something, I don't believe in it. That's it. To persist, for me, would just be to pretend. And God would know that I was faking it right?

Sure, I could go to Church and study the Holy Bible consistently, but wouldn't it be a waste of time and pointless if I didn't actually believe?

Pascal must not have been such a devout Christian to have even produced such a wager.

If I could think of a just God, it would be one that would treasure honest skepticism over dishonest loyalties.

Forgive me if I confused you, but the sins I mentioned aren't the only sins one can commit. And no, there is not one person on this earth who has been without sin except Jesus. To be without sin is to be perfect, and seeing how we are all cursed with sin, nobody is perfect.

About charity, there is a passage in the Bible when Jesus sees people giving money to the temple. He sees many rich people drop large amounts in, but then he sees a widow who puts in only two copper coins that are of very little value. He said to his disciples, "“I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on." So even if that woman was poor, God valued her offering more than anyone else's, because despite her poverty she did what God wanted. While it is understandable that you wouldn't want to give to charity because you don't have much money, realize that by doing so in the name of God, he will bless you.

And you're right, God does not treasure dishonest loyalties. That was what the Pharisees did, they followed all their rules and said they were men of God, but they really had become greedy and selfish. But there is no reason for him to treasure honest skepticism, if you don't believe in him then you will be punished after death. The Bible says there is only one way to eternal life, which is through Christ. Neither honest skepticism nor dishonest loyalties will get you there.

 

[Ven-Dono]

And you're right, God does not treasure dishonest loyalties. That was what the Pharisees did, they followed all their rules and said they were men of God, but they really had become greedy and selfish. But there is no reason for him to treasure honest skepticism, if you don't believe in him then you will be punished after death. The Bible says there is only one way to eternal life, which is through Christ. Neither honest skepticism nor dishonest loyalties will get you there.

So He punishes intellectuals who need more evidence based on logic to actually give something credit? I don't like such a God anyway. Maybe I would respect such a God more, if He didn't damn those who didn't believe. Disbelief shouldn't cause suffering. Instead, if I even were to believe in God, I would say He should just not give Atheists an afterlife. Serves them right, in my opinion.

Still reading the Bible though. So we'll see. :|

 

[Camilo101]

So He punishes intellectuals who need more evidence based on logic to actually give something credit? I don't like such a God anyway. Maybe I would respect such a God more, if He didn't damn those who didn't believe. Disbelief shouldn't cause suffering. Instead, if I even were to believe in God, I would say He should just not give Atheists an afterlife. Serves them right, in my opinion.

Still reading the Bible though. So we'll see. :|

You don't *need* evidence to give something credit, it's a choice, just like it's a choice to believe. So if you don't believe in God it's your decision. God rewards us for being faithful, and it is written in the Bible that "thou shalt not test the Lord." Jesus performed many miracles in various cities during his life, but many of them still refused to repent and change their ways. He also said that only wicked people seek miracles as a sign of God.

I really would like some more reasons as to why God shouldn't damn those who denied him. I mean really, I just can't comprehend how you think people who reject the Lord should be given eternal life with him. God is merciful, but he is also just. Those who obey him are rewarded, and those who refuse to do so are punished; he says this in the Bible. But because we are sinful, we cannot obey him on every little thing, so he gives us Christ as a way to salvation.

I really don't see how you can't understand this. You seem to think the whole thing is about following God's rules and practices, but the core of it is faith in the Lord. We do these things because we sincerely believe in God and want to please him, not because we are afraid we're going to go to Hell if we don't follow his rules. God is good, he loves us and wants us to have an abundant life, and eternal life with him after this one. He's not some uptight angry God who says "Do this, and this, and that, and this too. Then maybe I'll let you into heaven. If not, TO HELL with you!" What he asks of us is good and will give us happiness, so we need to have *faith* in him and follow his word.

 

[Wehrmacht]

You don't *need* evidence to give something credit, it's a choice, just like it's a choice to believe.

Generally speaking, we don't give beliefs that don't have evidence credibility. It's only natural. Following the evidence and making conclusions based on that usually works out better than making a subjective stab at the truth and acting according to that (like people in ancient times did, they thought sacrificing people in elaborate rituals would please their angry tribal gods).

I really would like some more reasons as to why God shouldn't damn those who denied him. I mean really, I just can't comprehend how you think people who reject the Lord should be given eternal life with him. God is merciful, but he is also just. Those who obey him are rewarded, and those who refuse to do so are punished; he says this in the Bible.

Punishing people for not returning your love is petty and cruel. It's like pulling pranks on a girl who turned you down. I sympathize with the Jehova's Witnesses' interpretation of the Bible, because it says all that awaits us is eternal sleep, which suits me just fine.

 

[Nyangoro]

Punishing people for not returning your love is petty and cruel. It's like pulling pranks on a girl who turned you down.

Not exactly how it works, but this isn't in Religion, so yeah.

 

[Camilo101]

Generally speaking, we don't give beliefs that don't have evidence credibility. It's only natural. Following the evidence and making conclusions based on that usually works out better than making a subjective stab at the truth and acting according to that (like people in ancient times did, they thought sacrificing people in elaborate rituals would please their angry tribal gods).

Punishing people for not returning your love is petty and cruel. It's like pulling pranks on a girl who turned you down. I sympathize with the Jehova's Witnesses' interpretation of the Bible, because it says all that awaits us is eternal sleep, which suits me just fine.

You're saying that logically it makes sense not to believe in things of which there is no evidence. Naturally, it makes sense not to do that. But faith is something spiritual, not natural or logical. Religion itself is based on spiritual beliefs. And regardless of what you have said, it's still a choice to believe in something or not to.

Your example is completely ignorant and downplays the situation. Lmao and on an impulsive note it makes me laugh because it's so ridiculous. God is not some boy who has a crush on us. He's our heavenly father, our creator. When we reject him, he doesn't get angry and immediately smite us. He loves us so deeply that even though we are always disobeying him (because of sin) and sometimes disbelieve in him, he'll never let go of us as long as we live. He will always forgive us if we are willing to repent. After giving us a lifetime, a precious gift of life AND a way to everlasting life by accepting Christ, if we turn that down then how can you feel entitled to be saved? It's a lifetime of forgiveness, not just asking someone once. It's an eternity of damnation, not just a prank. It's his children who he created with his own hands, not just some girl he thought was kinda cute.

 

[Wehrmacht]

You're saying that logically it makes sense not to believe in things of which there is no evidence. Naturally, it makes sense not to do that. But faith is something spiritual, not natural or logical. Religion itself is based on spiritual beliefs. And regardless of what you have said, it's still a choice to believe in something or not to.

I agree that faith isn't based on logic or reason and that illogically, some sort of God can exist, nor do I think any less of people of faith, but the thing is you can make that sort of claim about anything you'd normally find ridiculous.

"Believing in the tooth fairy isn't about logic or reason, it's about faith, she only rewards the truly faithful", etc.

It's very easy to come to the conclusion that religion is a human construct born from loneliness, despair, and lack of knowledge. I may not necessarily agree with it in full, but it's an easy enough conclusion to come to based on what we know.

I wouldn't really mind if God rewarded blind faith but punishing people who are just following where the evidence leads isn't really fair to them.

Also believing isn't really a choice, and if it is, like you said, God doesn't reward dishonest loyalties and some people aren't really capable of giving him honest loyalties without some more decisive proof because that's just the kind of people they are, and God should know because he made them that way.

Your example is completely ignorant and downplays the situation. Lmao and on an impulsive note it makes me laugh because it's so ridiculous. God is not some boy who has a crush on us. He's our heavenly father, our creator. When we reject him, he doesn't get angry and immediately smite us. He loves us so deeply that even though we are always disobeying him (because of sin) and sometimes disbelieve in him, he'll never let go of us as long as we live. He will always forgive us if we are willing to repent. After giving us a lifetime, a precious gift of life AND a way to everlasting life by accepting Christ, if we turn that down then how can you feel entitled to be saved? It's a lifetime of forgiveness, not just asking someone once. It's an eternity of damnation, not just a prank. It's his children who he created with his own hands, not just some girl he thought was kinda cute.

You're missing the point here. When it all comes to down it, you can follow just about all his commandments and be a good person generally, but if you have faith in another God or none, he punishes you for it even though there's not really much reason to believe in him over all other Gods (and I'm sure many people would want to be with him if they thought he was real). You can find people who are sure their beliefs are true in any religion, they go on about how much peace their faith gives them and they'll tell numerous stories of miracles and prayers supposedly answered by this God. They have no reason to just abandon their faith like that, under what authority do you claim that what they feel and believe in is a lie?

Imagine if you died and found out Christianity was wrong, and then you're up in the clouds and some big guy in the sky says: "Well, nice try, but you picked the wrong faith, enjoy the fire and brimstone." You'd probably find this unfair, right? I mean, you *knew* God was real, you followed what you felt was true, and now you're going to suffer for it forever and there's nothing you can do about it. Which is another thing, why does the punishment need to be eternal anyway? The whole point behind punishment is that you learn something from it, learn why what you did was wrong and apply the knowledge you've gained to the rest of your life. That's why punishments are temporal, not endless.

 

[Camilo101]

I agree that faith isn't based on logic or reason and that illogically, some sort of God can exist, but the thing is you can make that sort of claim about anything you'd normally find ridiculous.

"Believing in the tooth fairy isn't about logic or reason, it's about faith", etc.

Also believing isn't really a choice, and if it is, like you said, God doesn't reward dishonest loyalties and some people aren't really capable of giving him honest loyalties because that's just the kind of people they are.

You're missing the point here. When it all comes to down it, you can follow just about all his commandments and be a good person generally, but if you have faith in another God or none, he punishes you for it even though there's not really much reason to believe in him over all other Gods (and I'm sure many people would want to be with him if they thought he was real). You can find people who are sure their beliefs are true in any religion, they go on about how much peace their faith gives them and they'll tell numerous stories of miracles and prayers supposedly answered by this God. They have no reason to just abandon their faith like that.

Imagine if you died and found out Christianity was wrong, and then you're up in the clouds and some big guy in the sky says: "Well, nice try, but you picked the wrong faith, enjoy the fire and brimstone." You'd probably find this unfair, right? I mean, you *knew* God was real, you followed what you felt was true, and now you're going to suffer for it forever.

Nothing is impossible with God. You can't just say people are the way they are and will never come to believe in God. So it is a choice. If someone really wanted to be saved and started reading the Bible and praying to God and practicing his word, you can't say they're just never gonna believe it. That might happen of course, but you don't know for sure. Once again you give an outrageously whacky example. Everyone *knows* that the tooth fairy was made up, nobody sincerely believe she exists but children. And the tooth fairy just takes your teeth and gives you a quarter, that's nothing compared to what God has given us: everything. I've also said before that we don't just have a blind faith, we know God through the Bible. It's not just made off the top of our heads like a "flying spaghetti monster." There's a possibility that such monster exists just as much as God exists, but there's no background on it or record that covers thousands of years. Someone just thought of it and said "Hey, it could happen!" So there is a lot more reason to have faith in God than in a monster, even if both could possibly exist.

For your last statement, I remember reading in Revelations that God separates those who have done good works and bad works on judgement day. The good at that point will be given a chance to repent and accept Jesus. So it makes sense that if someone who believed in another faith but still did good works, they will be given another chance for repentance. However it clearly said that non-believers would be thrown into the lake of fire. I have to read more, but I'm assuming if you at least accepted some kind of faith and did good works you would still have a chance. But to go and say "There is no God, I don't believe in that stuff," then you're just condemned.

 

[Ven-Dono]

Nothing is impossible with God. You can't just say people are the way they are and will never come to believe in God. So it is a choice. If someone really wanted to be saved and started reading the Bible and praying to God and practicing his word, you can't say they're just never gonna believe it. That might happen of course, but you don't know for sure. Once again you give an outrageously whacky example. Everyone *knows* that the tooth fairy was made up, nobody sincerely believe she exists but children. And the tooth fairy just takes your teeth and gives you a quarter, that's nothing compared to what God has given us: everything. I've also said before that we don't just have a blind faith, we know God through the Bible. It's not just made off the top of our heads like a "flying spaghetti monster." There's a possibility that such monster exists just as much as God exists, but there's no background on it or record that covers thousands of years. Someone just thought of it and said "Hey, it could happen!" So there is a lot more reason to have faith in God than in a monster, even if both could possibly exist.

Just because God is a lot more significant than the tooth fairy, doesn't mean he is anymore valid. You're whole argument right there had little to no logic. Just because something has existed for a long time, just like I said in my first post in another thread, doesn't make it anymore valid than "Superman".

 

[Nyangoro]

Not to go off topic, but given the path that this thread is heading down, I figured I'd post something I've been a bit curious about.

Now, often times, I've heard the notion that religion is for the weak, depressed, hopeless group that need something to get their spirits up (which, in and of itself, I've found odd as another argument against religion is the idea that the cruel nature of the world makes a caring God impossible, but that's another thought entirely). While I'm sure that there are a multitude of people that have come to religion via troublesome times, I wouldn't deny the existence of God (whichever "version" someone may believe) solely because of that. My main thought behind this is that a good majority of past cultures (at least the ones we normally hear of) have some form of God (whether it be monotheistic, polytheistic, pantheistic, and whatever other possible forms they may take). Now, I understand that one could make the argument that, in the scientifically bereft annals of history, man needed some way to explain the world around him (and used the various theistic concepts to explain it); but I'm curious as to why all these cultures (which were largely separated from each other) would all choose some form of deity (or, if it helps, in the supernatural). I find it strange that people from all over the world would have a concept of a higher being or power as opposed to simply contriving more natural explanations (or even simply an "it just is" explanation). While there are a multitude of different religions and deities, I can't help but think that the likelihood of a higher being/power (in my thinking, the Christian God) is improved by this.

 

[Ven-Dono]

Not to go off topic, but given the path that this thread is heading down, I figured I'd post something I've been a bit curious about.

Now, often times, I've heard the notion that religion is for the weak, depressed, hopeless group that need something to get their spirits up (which, in and of itself, I've found odd as another argument against religion is the idea that the cruel nature of the world makes a caring God impossible, but that's another thought entirely). While I'm sure that there are a multitude of people that have come to religion via troublesome times, I wouldn't deny the existence of God (whichever "version" someone may believe) solely because of that. My main thought behind this is that a good majority of past cultures (at least the ones we normally hear of) have some form of God (whether it be monotheistic, polytheistic, pantheistic, and whatever other possible forms they may take). Now, I understand that one could make the argument that, in the scientifically bereft annals of history, man needed some way to explain the world around him (and used the various theistic concepts to explain it); but I'm curious as to why all these cultures (which were largely separated from each other) would all choose some form of deity (or, if it helps, in the supernatural). I find it strange that people from all over the world would have a concept of a higher being or power as opposed to simply contriving more natural explanations (or even simply an "it just is" explanation). While there are a multitude of different religions and deities, I can't help but think that the likelihood of a higher being/power (in my thinking, the Christian God) is improved by this.

I feel that with religion, people make personal Gods according to themselves. You usually don't see people that believe in a God that isn't on their side. Now, I'm not saying people won't believe in the same God that others do. Just that they make up this God to have morals congruent to their own.

Where the "weak-minded" part comes in, is that when people come to a church or synagog or whatever, they see people that greet them warmly. The people they meet are happy to welcome another member to their group. The church or any other place like it, is kind of like a less modernized psychotherapy. It helps it's members by giving them the chance for forgiveness, and letting the members who are satisfied and happy share their experiences. Truly warm feelings that would make someone comfortable with their life. I think the actual faith, God, Satan, and all that come second.

It's just that all these warm feelings and banding together soon lead to hating others for being different. Not saying that all religious hate, just that in my experience, they outcast people with different views. Because they refuse to take part in their merriment.

People probably tend to liken the explaining of the unexplained things to higher powers because what else could do these things beside the powerful right? When we were little, we probably saw our parents or other idols in life doing things we deemed powerful. Like lifting a heavy rock, working a job, driving, etc. So we only know how to explain remarkable things with powerful people or objects.

Just my stab at the Psychology of religion.

 

[Nyangoro]

I feel that with religion, people make personal Gods according to themselves. You usually don't see people that believe in a God that isn't on their side. Now, I'm not saying people won't believe in the same God that others do. Just that they make up this God to have morals congruent to their own.

Where the "weak-minded" part comes in, is that when people come to a church or synagog or whatever, they see people that greet them warmly. The people they meet are happy to welcome another member to their group. The church or any other place like it, is kind of like a less modernized psychotherapy. It helps it's members by giving them the chance for forgiveness, and letting the members who are satisfied and happy share their experiences. Truly warm feelings that would make someone comfortable with their life. I think the actual faith, God, Satan, and all that come second.

It's just that all these warm feelings and banding together soon lead to hating others for being different. Not saying that all religious hate, just that in my experience, they outcast people with different views. Because they refuse to take part in their merriment.

True, many people shape God as they want him to appear/act, but I think that says more about the motives of people entering a religion than on the notion of a deity.

People probably tend to liken the explaining of the unexplained things to higher powers because what else could do these things beside the powerful right? When we were little, we probably saw our parents or other idols in life doing things we deemed powerful. Like lifting a heavy rock, working a job, driving, etc. So we only know how to explain remarkable things with powerful people or objects.

And that's what I'm curious about. Why would we automatically turn to some sort of unexplainable higher power, especially when we're adults? Though a child would have put his parents and role models on idols as an explanation of things relative to them, and adult would have learned that their parents weren't actually all that different from themselves. Just from that, one would assume that other grandiose explanations like had a more natural explanation as well, and that the people would work from that. Instead, we find people turning to nature and/or the unseen as some form of deity; and not just in one single culture, but in a large amount of cultures across the world and its history. The concept of a deity (in whatever form) seems to common to be considered mere coincidence.

 

[Ven-Dono]

And that's what I'm curious about. Why would we automatically turn to some sort of unexplainable higher power, especially when we're adults?

For people that are followers in religion (the vast majority), I suspect just priming from their parents or other teaching figures.

And actually, you don't have to be a child to be ignorant.

I don't even understand why Christians (I don't know much about other religions) feel the need to even have churches/teachings if they say that good people will go to heaven if they haven't heard the Word of God anyway.

 

[Monkey]

You usually don't see people that believe in a God that isn't on their side.

Except for the majority of history people believed in gods that were NOT on their side and you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Nyangoro]

For people that are followers in religion (the vast majority), I suspect just priming from their parents or other teaching figures.

That would account for part of it, but certainly not all of it (especially as widespread as it was/is).

And actually, you don't have to be a child to be ignorant.

Definitely, but the general trend is that you become less ignorant as you grow older; and given the scope, I'd say the general trend applies.

I don't even understand why Christians (I don't know much about other religions) feel the need to even have churches/teachings if they say that good people will go to heaven if they haven't heard the Word of God anyway.

Which Christian church say that people go to heaven because they are "good" people?

 

[Ven-Dono]

Except for the majority of history people believed in gods that were NOT on their side and you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Okay. I'll correct myself. The main branches of religion today. Most monotheistic religions. Modern people have personalized Gods, while it seems our ancestors didn't. Does that sound right?

I never said that I was certain what I said was correct. But saying I have absolutely no idea is a little arrogant.

Plus, if you are going to use yourself as an example to deny my previous posts, surely you must know that one person cannot psychoanalyze themselves? It'd be like a crazy/sane person wondering if they were really insane. You need an outside observer to decide on something. And even then, an outside observer could be wrong.

Which Christian church say that people go to heaven because they are "good" people?

I just believed that to be true because of posts I've read here. And it would make sense for me, if there were truly moral absolutes.

 

[Nyangoro]

I just believed that to be true because of posts I've read here. And it would make sense for me, if there were truly moral absolutes.

Well, according to Christian beliefs, there's no act that you can do that can get you into heaven (unless you count "believe/put trust in/etc." as an act, in which case, sure). The concept is that, from conception, we are sinners and destined to go to "hell" (or, if you don't agree with the literal burning-for-eternity interpretation, feel free to replace "hell" with "not a good place to go"). I should also note that something like "well, we can't possibly have done anything wrong before we were born" doesn't work because, believe it or not, under Christian ideology it is genetic (actually, "hereditary" may be a better word, because I doubt there's an actual "sin gene"). The only way to go to heaven (or achieve salvation) is to accept the offer of mercy that God has given us (Christ's death on the cross and subsequent resurrection, which has a separate explanation as to how that works). Acceptance of that implies a belief (obviously), a placement of trust (if you don't trust him, how can you truly believe it?) and, in my opinion, should show itself through "works" (after all, if someone truly accepted God's mercy, I'd think that they'd have a desire to do good things).

 

[Camilo101]

I feel that with religion, people make personal Gods according to themselves. You usually don't see people that believe in a God that isn't on their side. Now, I'm not saying people won't believe in the same God that others do. Just that they make up this God to have morals congruent to their own.

Where the "weak-minded" part comes in, is that when people come to a church or synagog or whatever, they see people that greet them warmly. The people they meet are happy to welcome another member to their group. The church or any other place like it, is kind of like a less modernized psychotherapy. It helps it's members by giving them the chance for forgiveness, and letting the members who are satisfied and happy share their experiences. Truly warm feelings that would make someone comfortable with their life. I think the actual faith, God, Satan, and all that come second.

It's just that all these warm feelings and banding together soon lead to hating others for being different. Not saying that all religious hate, just that in my experience, they outcast people with different views. Because they refuse to take part in their merriment.

People probably tend to liken the explaining of the unexplained things to higher powers because what else could do these things beside the powerful right? When we were little, we probably saw our parents or other idols in life doing things we deemed powerful. Like lifting a heavy rock, working a job, driving, etc. So we only know how to explain remarkable things with powerful people or objects.

Just my stab at the Psychology of religion.

Ven, there's a word for this idea of yours, of making up personal Gods: idolatry. It's one of the worst sins you can commit, because it's not worshiping the real God. God is an unchanging God, his word is eternal and it's stated in the Bible that anyone who tries to change his word will receive all the punishments of the end of days. I think you're trying to actually say that "People don't believe in a God that is angered by what they do." If you're a homosexual, you might not believe in God because you don't believe God would hate that you have sex with men. If you're a rich greedy businessman, you might not believe in God because you think a true God wouldn't judge you for not sharing your hard-earned wealth.

But God is on our sides, he loves us all and wants all of us to have eternal life with him. When we do evil things is saddens him, and when we refuse to repent it angers him. If anyone's gonna believe in God, they should base their beliefs off the Bible, which is God's eternal mind and counsel. Making up rules and beliefs just to fit your lifestyle is idolatry and is a sin.

For what you said about Churches, that might just be what you've seen from churches, and that's wrong. It says in the Bible that we are to love our neighbors, and that by reading the Bible we have all become preachers and can use the word of God to save others. If you know a Christian that shuns and hates Atheists or other religions, they're not doing God's will. People who have the Holy Spirit in them can't help but feel overjoyed because they know this life is beautiful and another life that's a thousand times better waits for them after death. So naturally they want to bring others into God's grace.

That last thing you said, I agree with that. I really don't see how anyone can think this amazing universe was just randomly created in a huge explosion, and life just happened to only occur on Earth (Yeah I know that's not technically proven but so far it's the only one), and that we just happened to be the only species that even came close to doing such wonderful things like creating and building and writing music and all sorts of ideas. I mean, the universe obviously has laws and properties to it, but who sets these things? How are we able to comprehend these properties if we didn't create them? I believe it's because we came from God, who created these things, and so knowledge of their nature has been passed down to us.