Is Namine really the Nobody?

[Smile]

Or have we all been fooled?
I'm saying yes.
Conspiracy theory ahead, yey~
Kinda long, so we'll go by points here =D


Kairi in Kingdom Hearts 1
Once the Islands disappear, Kairi's Heart migrates to Sora's Body, leaving Kairi as a physical existence made up from A Body and a Soul, and yet NO HEART. The very definition of a Nobody.


Her Heart, having interfered directly with Sora's as said in the Secret Ansem Reports, later gives Birth to Namine's powers over his Memories. Not only are the Nobody's Memories connected to someone else, they were given birth by a direct connection of Hearts


When you look at characteristics, you'll find most Nobodies (with the Exception of Roxas and Namine) have two charictaristics. One changes from Nobody to Nobody according to his Somebody's strongest traits or lasting impression. Xemnas is the Superior, simple put. Look at Xehanort's Heartless and we can match. Xigbar's a Hill-Billy. Xaldin's strict. Vexen's a science-holic. Lexeaus is silent and stern. Zexion is a conspiring b*tch. Axel is ironically passionate. Demyx is rather infantile and childish. Luxord is British. Marluxia and Larxene have ego issues.
Aside from that one identifying character trait, they'll be prone to bursts of anger, which is by far one of the emotions that is mostly related to instincts than thought.
When dealing with Kairi, it's hard not to notice she smiles just about throughout the entire games, save for when Sora turns into a Heartless.
That's where our Anger management kicks in.
Also look at her KH2 colors - it's staring us in the face - Pink for the smile, and redhead for the anger.
Namine on the other hand shows just about any and all emotions you can think of, from despair, depression and self hatered, through ambition and determination to laughter and happiness and hope upon being "reunited" with Sora at the end of CoM.


I said Secret Ansem Reports? Reread them plzkthxbai. He said so himself -
"She was born from the same process as a Nobody and yet she lacks all the traits of a Nobody".
Aside from that he keeps bringing up theories after theories that some contradict each other. Basically, despite the reports' intentions of telling us what's going on there, Ansem the Wise is actually saying Lol I don't know what she is.
Also, he's not the most objective person when it comes to Nobodies in general and anything that has to do with the Organization in particular. Even if Namine isn't the real Nobody, he'd go out of his way trying to prove she is because Kairi's considered a Princess of Heart while Namine was a Tool for the Organization.


When she was created - Namine says in CoM that she "was alone for so long." Assuming she truly came into "existence" when Sora released Kairi's Heart from his body, that only left her to be found by the Organization and put in solitude... what, a week? Two? A month tops? And even that's exaggerating since plot wise from the moment Sora turned into a Heartless to the start of CoM it hasn't been that long.


Another point - why in the blazes would the Organization built Castle Oblivion without Namine? It's based on Memories, and AtW concluded their experiments were based around Namine and her ability to manipulate Memories. Even with all the help from the Nobodies, it would still take months to build the place - but if we say Castle Oblivion was built because of Namine, that means Namine was created months ago -
At the latest, she was created at the start of KH1, when Kairi lost her Heart when the islands disappeared.
Already a flaw in AtW's theory.
FM+ reference to support this -

Spoiler Show

Vexen and Zexion are talking about moving into their almost complete Castle Oblivion and then
Xigbar comes and tells them how he only just recruited Marluxia.
Even before Larxene, quite a while before Roxas.

That's quite a while.
Me? I say it happened when Kairi got thrown off of Hollow Bastion by Xehanort so she'd find Sora through their KM-PoH bond.
Circumstantial basis - Namine's dress and kid Kairi's.
It still makes a hell lot of sense, if you take into consideration Namine's "I've been alone for so long" comment. Throw in the fact the Org were around at that time (since they were created when their Somebodies turned Heartless - which was when Xehanort did) and you get the perfect chance for them to get their paws on Namine.




I had more, but it's past midnight here and it's been a long day XD; it'll probably come up as the discussion'll go along.
So, c'mon :E whatchu think?

 

[afrobutt]

Or have we all been fooled?
I'm saying yes.
Conspiracy theory ahead, yey~
Kinda long, so we'll go by points here =D

I'm listening

Kairi in Kingdom Hearts 1
Once the Islands disappear, Kairi's Heart migrates to Sora's Body, leaving Kairi as a physical existence made up from A Body and a Soul, and yet NO HEART. The very definition of a Nobody.

Kairi is a PoH, meaning she has no darkness in her heart (shes just ****ing insane). Heartless are made from the darkness in ppl's hearts, so no heartless. BUT, she did lose her heart so a Nobody was made. Also, because of her PoHness, her body remained in the Realm of Light

Her Heart, having interfered directly with Sora's as said in the Secret Ansem Reports, later gives Birth to Namine's powers over his Memories. Not only are the Nobody's Memories connected to someone else, they were given birth by a direct connection of Hearts


When you look at characteristics, you'll find most Nobodies (with the Exception of Roxas and Namine) have two charictaristics. One changes from Nobody to Nobody according to his Somebody's strongest traits or lasting impression. Xemnas is the Superior, simple put. Look at Xehanort's Heartless and we can match. Xigbar's a Hill-Billy. Xaldin's strict. Vexen's a science-holic. Lexeaus is silent and stern. Zexion is a conspiring b*tch. Axel is ironically passionate. Demyx is rather infantile and childish. Luxord is British. Marluxia and Larxene have ego issues.
Aside from that one identifying character trait, they'll be prone to bursts of anger, which is by far one of the emotions that is mostly related to instincts than thought.
When dealing with Kairi, it's hard not to notice she smiles just about throughout the entire games, save for when Sora turns into a Heartless.
That's where our Anger management kicks in.
Also look at her KH2 colors - it's staring us in the face - Pink for the smile, and redhead for the anger.
Namine on the other hand shows just about any and all emotions you can think of, from despair, depression and self hatered, through ambition and determination to laughter and happiness and hope upon being "reunited" with Sora at the end of CoM.

i have no idea what u are saying. So each member of OXIII has mental problems, congratz. I don't see how this helps your theory >.>; And Namine isn't rlly depressed, ever. And Kairi doesn't get exaccsivly mad, so again what are you trying to say?

I said Secret Ansem Reports? Reread them plzkthxbai. He said so himself -
"She was born from the same process as a Nobody and yet she lacks all the traits of a Nobody".
Aside from that he keeps bringing up theories after theories that some contradict each other. Basically, despite the reports' intentions of telling us what's going on there, Ansem the Wise is actually saying Lol I don't know what she is.
Also, he's not the most objective person when it comes to Nobodies in general and anything that has to do with the Organization in particular. Even if Namine isn't the real Nobody, he'd go out of his way trying to prove she is because Kairi's considered a Princess of Heart while Namine was a Tool for the Organization.

Namine is different from Kairi cuz Namine wasn't technically born like other Nobodies. She was made along with Roxas, and not from her Somebody, but from Sora who gave her the traits and such to be a Nobody

When she was created - Namine says in CoM that she "was alone for so long." Assuming she truly came into "existence" when Sora released Kairi's Heart from his body, that only left her to be found by the Organization and put in solitude... what, a week? Two? A month tops? And even that's exaggerating since plot wise from the moment Sora turned into a Heartless to the start of CoM it hasn't been that long.


Another point - why in the blazes would the Organization built Castle Oblivion without Namine? It's based on Memories, and AtW concluded their experiments were based around Namine and her ability to manipulate Memories. Even with all the help from the Nobodies, it would still take months to build the place - but if we say Castle Oblivion was built because of Namine, that means Namine was created months ago -
At the latest, she was created at the start of KH1, when Kairi lost her Heart when the islands disappeared.
Already a flaw in AtW's theory.
FM+ reference to support this -

Spoiler Show

Vexen and Zexion are talking about moving into their almost complete Castle Oblivion and then
Xigbar comes and tells them how he only just recruited Marluxia.
Even before Larxene, quite a while before Roxas.

That's quite a while.
Me? I say it happened when Kairi got thrown off of Hollow Bastion by Xehanort so she'd find Sora through their KM-PoH bond.
Circumstantial basis - Namine's dress and kid Kairi's.
It still makes a hell lot of sense, if you take into consideration Namine's "I've been alone for so long" comment. Throw in the fact the Org were around at that time (since they were created when their Somebodies turned Heartless - which was when Xehanort did) and you get the perfect chance for them to get their paws on Namine.

1) Why did u add the Namine thing? A month is a long time >.>
2) OXIII didn't build CO, they found it.



That's all

 

[Gothic_Donald]

LMAO
I LOVE IT
"Luxord is British"

Kairi's heart was in sora's body protecting him from the heartless.
I'm going to assume when yu die on kh 1 that is kairi's heart that comes out
Anyway, Namine was created weird and I'm not sure at what time she was made

It was either whe kairi gave her heart to sora
Or when sora set free his and Kairi's heart

 

[Genocide]

What exactly are you trying to say?

 

[V.A.T.13]

Kairi is a PoH, meaning she has no darkness in her heart (shes just ****ing insane). Heartless are made from the darkness in ppl's hearts, so no heartless. BUT, she did lose her heart so a Nobody was made. Who knows why Karir became a vegetable >.>

The nobody was made once the heart left Sora who HAS darkness in his body.
So Kai's heart touched a little of Sora's darkness and created Namine. (i still don't know how the f*ck you make TWO bodies, one being FEMALE, from ONE male body )

NAMI YOU GODDAMN PLOT HOLE.

 

[ShadowDusk]

Why is she the only one that doesn't have an X anywhere in her name, or can be rearranged to say Kairi. Or is that just an Organization thing.

 

[kyblade24]

What exactly are you trying to say?

for once, I agree with him. what ARE you trying to say? if Namine isn't her nobody, then who is? sure as h*ll not Larxene! please explain.

 

[Stars]

I dunno what u are talking about... but...i think Namine is just shadow of Sora...

 

[SquallLeonheartS]

Why is she the only one that doesn't have an X anywhere in her name, or can be rearranged to say Kairi. Or is that just an Organization thing.

Only Organization members go by that anagramical name with an added "x".

 

[kyblade24]

dude, face it. NAMINE IS KAIRI'S NOBODY!!!!!!! SHE MERGES WITH KAIRI IN TWTNW! EXPLAIN THAT!

 

[Norpthalomus]

They can't take back Namine being a nobody. But, on the other hand, they took back Ansem's name...

 

[Smile]

i have no idea what u are saying. So each member of OXIII has mental problems, congratz. I don't see how this helps your theory >.>; And Namine isn't rlly depressed, ever. And Kairi doesn't get exaccsivly mad, so again what are you trying to say?

Namine is depressed in CoM. Kinda Emo, really. And I'm not saying the Org have mental issues. I'm saying they've nothing BUT said mental issues. Only one identifying trait. Same goes to Kairi while Namine's different. The way her effin character is built (though that can just be her being an undeveloped character, but still)

2) OXIII didn't build CO, they found it

Not according to the FM+ they didn't, not from the scenes I've seen at least.

dude, face it. NAMINE IS KAIRI'S NOBODY!!!!!!! SHE MERGES WITH KAIRI IN TWTNW! EXPLAIN THAT!

Ah, that's my whole point. Namine isn't the Nobody - Kairi is o,o;

Why is she the only one that doesn't have an X anywhere in her name, or can be rearranged to say Kairi. Or is that just an Organization thing.

That's actually a good question, one that kinda makes you wonder.
FM+ reference -

Spoiler Show

The Org Members get the X in their names when they agree, basically, to get a new Heart
eventually and get a new existence, separate from their Somebodies. It's shown
when Xemnas recruits Roxas and says that now that he's Roxas, he's a new him
as opposed to just being Sora's Nobody.

If Namine really is a Nobody, couldn't she have been recruited in the exact same way?
Never once though has it been said Namine wanted to be whole. She just didn't want to be lonely anymore. Other Nobodies don't really care for how many Hearts they exist in. They want a Heart. Namine wants remembrance.

 

[V.A.T.13]

Not according to the FM+ they didn't, not from the scenes I've seen at least.

Um, Nomura said himself that the org found the castle, what info are you refering to in FM+?

 

[Smile]

Um, Nomura said himself that the org found the castle, what info are you refering to in FM+?

*scratches chin* in the scene I saw, they said the Castle would be ready soon. Must've misunderstood that as construction as opposed to preperations. My bad then.

 

[carsonj]

Or have we all been fooled?
I'm saying yes.
Conspiracy theory ahead, yey~
Kinda long, so we'll go by points here =D

It's ok, long theories are better.
First point I want to make: Namine was NEVER intended to be Kairi's Nobody, Nomu said it tons of times during CoM, but apparently he wanted to change the idea later.

Kairi in Kingdom Hearts 1
Once the Islands disappear, Kairi's Heart migrates to Sora's Body, leaving Kairi as a physical existence made up from A Body and a Soul, and yet NO HEART. The very definition of a Nobody.

Yes, but, Roxas wasn't created. Namine was created with Roxas, and Roxas wasn't created until the event at HB. Namine was therefore not created until then.

When you look at characteristics, you'll find most Nobodies (with the Exception of Roxas and Namine) have two charictaristics. One changes from Nobody to Nobody according to his Somebody's strongest traits or lasting impression. Xemnas is the Superior, simple put. Look at Xehanort's Heartless and we can match. Xigbar's a Hill-Billy. Xaldin's strict. Vexen's a science-holic. Lexeaus is silent and stern. Zexion is a conspiring b*tch. Axel is ironically passionate. Demyx is rather infantile and childish. Luxord is British. Marluxia and Larxene have ego issues.
Aside from that one identifying character trait, they'll be prone to bursts of anger, which is by far one of the emotions that is mostly related to instincts than thought.

Nobodies feel nothing. They only remember anger and rage.

When dealing with Kairi, it's hard not to notice she smiles just about throughout the entire games, save for when Sora turns into a Heartless.

Also, Sora is a pretty happy go lucky guy. Roxas was not so much during his stay with Org 13. He was different in DTT because of AtW.

Namine on the other hand shows just about any and all emotions you can think of, from despair, depression and self hatered, through ambition and determination to laughter and happiness and hope upon being "reunited" with Sora at the end of CoM.

Namine is special, if she can't feel emotions, she's a really good actress.

When she was created - Namine says in CoM that she "was alone for so long." Assuming she truly came into "existence" when Sora released Kairi's Heart from his body, that only left her to be found by the Organization and put in solitude... what, a week? Two? A month tops? And even that's exaggerating since plot wise from the moment Sora turned into a Heartless to the start of CoM it hasn't been that long.

When you are alone, even a week would seem like a long time. Namine was born in CO, but who knows how long she was there before she was found. And, the Org may have not even liked her, avoiding her and keeping her locked away.

Another point - why in the blazes would the Organization built Castle Oblivion without Namine? It's based on Memories, and AtW concluded their experiments were based around Namine and her ability to manipulate Memories. Even with all the help from the Nobodies, it would still take months to build the place - but if we say Castle Oblivion was built because of Namine, that means Namine was created months ago -

CO was found by the Organization. My personal theory is that it was built during the Keyblade Wars. It is involved in memories because of the experiments that they are doing with Namine and her ability.

FM+ reference to support this -

Spoiler Show

Vexen and Zexion are talking about moving into their almost complete Castle Oblivion and then
Xigbar comes and tells them how he only just recruited Marluxia.
Even before Larxene, quite a while before Roxas.

*Sigh* What they were talking about was the Room of Sleep that Xemnas built in HB. There was the Room of Awakening that they were buliding at CO, they were not actually building the castle.

Good try.

Why is she the only one that doesn't have an X anywhere in her name, or can be rearranged to say Kairi. Or is that just an Organization thing.

Like I said, she was never ment to be Kairi's Nobody. Besides, can Namine even be called a member worth getting a cool name? Also, what better way to shame a freakily created Nobody than give her a totally bogus name?

 

[Smile]

It's ok, long theories are better.
First point I want to make: Namine was NEVER intended to be Kairi's Nobody, Nomu said it tons of times during CoM, but apparently he wanted to change the idea later.

o.o! Nomura <3

Yes, but, Roxas wasn't created. Namine was created with Roxas, and Roxas wasn't created until the event at HB. Namine was therefore not created until then.

Refer me please to the place that specifically said that Namine and Roxas were created together. It's easy to think that way if you think she was created when he did in Hollow Bastion, but if there's not a forced connection between them, it doesn't mean he couldn't have been created in HB while she was created in DI or prior.

Nobodies feel nothing. They only remember anger and rage.

And the one strongest emotion that still somehow differentiate them from even other Nobodies. You can tell the Org members apart by characteristics, The one other emotion they "remember" the most. Xemnas not remembering anything other than anger and rage only shows that's what signifies his Somebody rather than it being said about all Nobodies.

CO was found by the Organization. My personal theory is that it was built during the Keyblade Wars. It is involved in memories because of the experiments that they are doing with Namine and her ability.

Returning to my theory that they needed to at least customize the Castle because of Namine, and that would take a while - more than when she was supposedly created in HB.

*Sigh* What they were talking about was the Room of Sleep that Xemnas built in HB. There was the Room of Awakening that they were buliding at CO, they were not actually building the castle.

Good try.

No no no. Vexen specifically talked about moving into CO and that's why he needed to talk to Xemnas. Now Xemnas was gone because he was in the room of Sleep, yes, but Vexen was talking about the initial move to CO.

Like I said, she was never ment to be Kairi's Nobody. Besides, can Namine even be called a member worth getting a cool name? Also, what better way to shame a freakily created Nobody than give her a totally bogus name?

[/QUOTE]

ironically, by not putting an X in her name they give her a form of a Somebody's Identity. More so than saying "No, you're not part of us, you freak" (and why would they say that? We all saw how badly they need her in CoM, Sora would've been their pawn, Marluxia's conspiracy aside. The original objective was to enslave Sora, Marluxia just wanted to be the puppet master instead of handing him over) they're actually saying, in a small, ****ed up way - "You're somebody different." even with the X names, they're still based on their Somebody's names. Namine, however, is given a free identity separate from even Kairi.

 

[Kiwise]

Never once though has it been said Namine wanted to be whole. She just didn't want to be lonely anymore.

Yes, she did. In the novel, she told Axel she wanted to meet Kairi. (This is why Axel kidnapped Kairi. He "wanted to help them meet.")

An odd smile was plastered to Axel's face. He seemed to be at a complete loss of what to do.
"Axel, I wanted to ask you for a favor," Namine said, with a peculiar hint of determination in her voice. "Kairi...I want to meet her," Axel raised an eyebrow at these words. If a nobody like Namine was to meet their real self - they would disappear. All that would be left would be the real person – Kairi.
"Real self, huh?"
"Then I'll be whole," Namine look towards the ground at she spoke.

Here.



I like your theory, but I think there are too many holes in it at the moment. Good job, though.

Also look at her KH2 colors - it's staring us in the face - Pink for the smile, and redhead for the anger.

I don't think I understand what you mean by this. Kairi was never angry. Ever.



Also, about Namine not having an 'x' in her name, I figured it was because she was alone so long that she decided to name herself before the Organization found her. They all called her a witch, so, for whatever reason, I doubt that they had much incentive to change her name and make her one of them.
Also, 'kai' means 'sea.' 'Nami' means 'wave.' So, the names are related... A little.

Xemnas is the Superior, simple put. Look at Xehanort's Heartless and we can match. Xigbar's a Hill-Billy. Xaldin's strict. Vexen's a science-holic. Lexeaus is silent and stern. Zexion is a conspiring b*tch. Axel is ironically passionate. Demyx is rather infantile and childish. Luxord is British. Marluxia and Larxene have ego issues.

WIN. THIS IS WIN.
"Luxord is British," I love it. XD

 

[Smile]

In other words, I need to get my paws on the Novels XD;
It still doesn't mean Namine is the Nobody and Kairi the Somebody though. When the two parts meet, one of them disappears. More so than Kairi is the Somebody, Namine just doesn't see herself as such, so she blends into Kairi instead of the other way around.

And Kairi was angry when Sora turned into a Heartless and she announces she won't let him leave with the most childish, angry pout ever.


Ok now I reread the part from the novel and I must say - it all fits in nicely with her misconception of herself as being the Nobody. Even more so than being the Nobody, it's her own conception of being a Witch that was never meant to be there. Part of the issue about Namine is that she's too shrouded in Mystery to be taken at face value, so it really is possible that the Organization either lied to her or they themselves don't know the truth. My point still holds though - Namine wanted to be remembered, not to exist.
And seeing with her own eyes Sora chose his real memories over her (though there's a good reason I say, they made a promise to meet once he woke up, a promise Namine wasn't able to keep, so it's not like he actually gave up on her) Namine had very little choice but to believe returning to Kairi would be the only way for her to be in Sora's Heart, or any other heart.
Also, at this point it's after her year with Riku, another painful act in her life where right before her eyes an Existence altered beyond recognition.
Going back to Kairi would be A) placing the responsibility on something else, something Sora himself did in a way when he turned into a Hearltess (free Kairi's Heart, fall into the same Darkness as Riku did, and lose his Heart, feelings and memories on the way - the perfect escape), B) A way to ensure to herself nothing like that would happen to her - more so than because she became whole, but because she'd be a part of someone else instead of her own being.
(Icing on the cake - Namine's the firmest believer in SoKai, so in a way, she's getting her man at the end.)
I can say that because people remembered Sora, so when Roxas and him fused Sora was the dominant figure in everyone's eyes - including himself, having not known about Roxas. Also, Roxas was pushed into a corner as far as his own existence was concerned, in no small part thanks to Namine's infamous "You were never supposed to exist".
Roxas and Namine said it themselves - they're the way they remember each other, but there was no one there to really Remember Namine - Kairi was pretty incapable of accepting her, knowing not the truth or seemingly caring (unless that too is covered in the novel at which case I'll be thrilled to see what they did with the KaiNami Nobody/Somebody issue) especially with Sora around, Sora who forgot her, and Riku who... well, we all know how good Riku is at giving up one's sense of self, especially if there's a Sora involved.

Rant's point - her saying she wants to be whole can be explained with her misconception of being a Nobody. Another meaning to whole - being with the person she loves, and CoM allegedly showed Sora chose Kairi over her.

 

[afrobutt]

*pulls hair out* why you no listen???

Your theory is based on 3 things

1) The colors of ppl's clothing and their hair, which has nothing to do with anything
2) a big batch of facts that aren't true
3) Saying that all the info we have on KH could be lies

Kairi is not a nobody, because a Nobody has no heart. Kairi is a Princess of HEART, which implies she has a heart. Namine returns to Kairi at the end of KH2. The only reason Kairi was still wandering around after she lost her heart is b/c she was a PoH, meaning that since she couldn't turn into a heartless, her body remained, this is said in the Secret Ansem Reports. Not b/c she's a Nobody.

Also, Xigbar isn't a hill-billy (not sure how u came to that conclusion >.>), he's an awsome old dude with a surfer-like accent and acts younger then he rlly is. ^^ Just felt like adding that

 

[Genocide]

Refer me please to the place that specifically said that Namine and Roxas were created together. It's easy to think that way if you think she was created when he did in Hollow Bastion, but if there's not a forced connection between them, it doesn't mean he couldn't have been created in HB while she was created in DI or prior.

Well aside from the fact that it's said in game that Namine was created from Kairi's heart when Sora turned into a heartless, I'd say it's the fact that Kairi's heart had no darkness and couldn't create a heartless; thus effectively no nobody. So her heart used Sora's heartless to create said nobody.

There are many plot holes, like why Namine isn't in the Organization. Why did CoM say that Namine built CO?

Simple, the writers didn't think too far ahead. Like someone already said, Namine wasn't meant to be Kairi's nobody.