Is Namine really the Nobody?

[Smile]

*pulls hair out* why you no listen???

Your theory is based on 3 things

1) The colors of ppl's clothing and their hair, which has nothing to do with anything
2) a big batch of facts that aren't true
3) Saying that all the info we have on KH could be lies

1) Symbolizm, my friend. Saying Kingdom Hearts lacks it is saying the game is all but dead.
2) The only fact I've seen proven to be wrong so far is that I thought the Org built CO when they found it. What else did I miss in, remind me?
3) Well, I'm only saying what they prove themselves. KH1's "Ansem" being Ansem was a lie, need I remind you. A Somebody proven to be a Nobody. Roxas is this close to officially having a Heart, and he's a Nobody. Who's to say Namine isn't the same?

Kairi is not a nobody, because a Nobody has no heart. Kairi is a Princess of HEART, which implies she has a heart. Namine returns to Kairi at the end of KH2. The only reason Kairi was still wandering around after she lost her heart is b/c she was a PoH, meaning that since she couldn't turn into a heartless, her body remained, this is said in the Secret Ansem Reports. Not b/c she's a Nobody.

1) PoHs are only really mentioned in KH1. Afterwards no one refers to Kairi as a PoH. On the other hand, look at the vast amount of times Sora's refered to as a KM, Riku as a wielder of Darknes, and a Keyblade Wielder, Roxas's connection to the Keyblade, etc. Kairi's connection to the PoH is lacking at best.

2) You still don't contradict her body remained. Beacuse the lack of Darkness it didn't go poof to be recreated differently in the Realm of Darkness - something even the stronger Nobodies go through which explains the differences in appearences. Sora turned Heartless, his body disappeared, and we got Roxas who materialized elsewhere with slightly different looks. Kairi's body, however, stayed right where it is... or not, come to think of it - she disappeared along with the islands and materialized somewhere else when the islands went poof. PoH status could explain why she still looks the same but she did lose her heart and her body vanished. Go tell me those facts are wrong too.

3) Much like Roxas had Sora's Keyblade powers due to him being his Nobody (ok even if you wanna say he has his own heart, he has TWO Keyblades. That means Sora's in there somewhere as well), the same could be said about a PoH's powers (and since she's the only PoH ever to lose her heart, there's nothing to base nor contradict this). Who's to say Namine's powers as PoH didn't linger on in Kairi?
Ok you know what? A point that bothered me since forever, especially in the way it was shown. Why didn't Kairi help the other PoHs in Hollow Bastion? Sora said she'd get in his way; they never talked about that. Also - hey, he turned into a Heartless and she got him back. How'd that be getting in his way if she could do that again? Or more?
Who knows, maybe she depleted the PoH powers she had when she pulled him back from being a Heartless, and was only able to get access to them again when Namine and her met again in KH2?

 

[carsonj]

Refer me please to the place that specifically said that Namine and Roxas were created together. It's easy to think that way if you think she was created when he did in Hollow Bastion, but if there's not a forced connection between them, it doesn't mean he couldn't have been created in HB while she was created in DI or prior.

Secret Ansem Report 9

Namine was a witch who controlled the memories of others.

Most likely these powers were achieved through a special process when she was
born.

Namine is a Nobody, created when a young girl's heart left her body.

Yet she has no corresponding Heartless.

This is because the "young girl" in this case was a princess.

Kairi, a resident of Radiant Garden over which I had ruled, was one of the
Seven Princesses that uphold the realm of light.

With no darkness in her heart, Kairi produced no Heartless, and instead of
vanishing, her body remained in the realm of light.

In other words, both the Nobody called Namine and the Heartless- proof of a
lost heart- are extremely unstable beings who lack the bodies needed to
produce a Nobody. Therefore, they also lack Kairi's memories. One reason for
this maybe that Kairi's heart did not return to the darkness when separated
from her body, but rather migrated to another vessel... deep within Sora's
heart.

That is, Namine is an alter ego of the Kairi who has directly interfered with
Sora's heart. Could this be why Sora and those hearts are connected to him
were able to have their memories controlled?

She is a "non-being" in the truest sense of the word; having not even become a
Nobody and with nowhere left to go, she is but the most fleeting of shadows.

If she wasn't born during the time on DI then the only logical time was during HB, that was the only time when Sora's heart was lost.

Secret Ansem Report 10

I have arrived at a hypothesis.

I believe that Namine was born as a special type of Nobody when Sora attacked
himself with te Keyblade, causing his and Kairi's hearts to leave their bodies
simultaneously.

Namine emerged as Kairi's Nobody... but the body and soul necessary to exist
as a Nobody belonged to Sora.

When a person's heart is stolen, a Heartless is born with no sense of self,
and the body and soul left behind give rise to a Nobody.

But what if one willingly releases one's heart from one's body?

Sora and Xehanort retained their selfhood even after becoming Heartless.

Then there are Kairi and Namine.

Kairi was exceptional for having had no darkness within her heart. Also
exceptional was that her heart, once freed, migrated to a new vessel- Sora.

The combination of the two theoretically unlikely exceptions may be behind
this anomaly.

Secret Ansem Report 12

Apart from Namine, Nobodies retain their memories of their time as humans, but
Sora's Nobody, Roxas, has lost Sora's memories.

This is likely because Sora's time as a Heartless was short, having recovered
his heart and returned to his human form soon after leaving behind Roxas, his
Nobody.

It would seem Roxas is much like Namine. Namine is Kairi's Nobody, but came
into being via Sora's body and soul.

Likewise, Roxas is Sora's Nobody, but was left behind because Sora's Heartless
regained human form using Kairi's heart instead of his own.

If that's not proof enough, I don't know what is.

And the one strongest emotion that still somehow differentiate them from even other Nobodies. You can tell the Org members apart by characteristics, The one other emotion they "remember" the most. Xemnas not remembering anything other than anger and rage only shows that's what signifies his Somebody rather than it being said about all Nobodies.

No. The Nobodies only remember anger and rage because that's what is left. Emotions come from the heart, not from the body. Nobodies pretend to have emotions, and anger and rage are the easiest to immitate. If you don't know what crying is, you can't cry.
To quote saix to further prove that emotions come from the heart "If I had a heart, this is where I'd die of laughter."

Returning to my theory that they needed to at least customize the Castle because of Namine, and that would take a while - more than when she was supposedly created in HB.

No they wouldn't. Nobodies, like Heartless, are controlled by higher ranking Heartless or Nobodies. Org XIII very easily could have sent thousands of Nobodies to do their work at CO. Do any of them look like the type of people who get their hands dirty if they don't have to?

ironically, by not putting an X in her name they give her a form of a Somebody's Identity. More so than saying "No, you're not part of us, you freak" (and why would they say that? We all saw how badly they need her in CoM, Sora would've been their pawn, Marluxia's conspiracy aside. The original objective was to enslave Sora, Marluxia just wanted to be the puppet master instead of handing him over) they're actually saying, in a small, ****ed up way - "You're somebody different." even with the X names, they're still based on their Somebody's names. Namine, however, is given a free identity separate from even Kairi.

For one, they did need her in CO, but they also didn't like her. She was a manipulable pawn by them, they couldn't give a crap about Namine.

Second, why would they give a loser Nobody a cool name?

Third, they only give X names to their members. Namine isn't a member.

 

[Smile]

If that's not proof enough, I don't know what is.

I already said why I have a hard time accepting AtW's hypothesis.

1) That's what they are - theories. They start with him admitting he has little to no idea what Namine is, to him merely theorizing possible explanations.
2) His lack of objectiveness when dealing with Nobodies in general and anything Org related in particular.
I know it's dim but it's a hope I'm desperately clinging to.

No. The Nobodies only remember anger and rage because that's what is left. Emotions come from the heart, not from the body. Nobodies pretend to have emotions, and anger and rage are the easiest to immitate. If you don't know what crying is, you can't cry.
To quote saix to further prove that emotions come from the heart "If I had a heart, this is where I'd die of laughter."

I never said they actually had those emotions, just that they were rather obvious when looking at them from outside. They "know" those feelings because that's what their Somebodies "knew" the most and left them with that.

No they wouldn't. Nobodies, like Heartless, are controlled by higher ranking Heartless or Nobodies. Org XIII very easily could have sent thousands of Nobodies to do their work at CO. Do any of them look like the type of people who get their hands dirty if they don't have to?

I'll start by saying that the Org members at CoM dirtied their hands well enough without calling a single Nobody, or a Heartless for that matter when it mattered more (Marluxia's the exception but he too did it only after he lost once to Sora)
I'll continue by saying that especially since Vexen had to do with CO, he'd hardly let some clumsy, foolish Nobody do what a man of science should. He simply wouldn't trust them not to ruin the experiment.

For one, they did need her in CO, but they also didn't like her. She was a manipulable pawn by them, they couldn't give a crap about Namine.

Right. Which was why they were so pissed off when she ruined their plan of having the Keyblade Master at their mercy. Quite a valuable pawn if you ask me.

Second, why would they give a loser Nobody a cool name?

Hardly a loser seeing what she can get people to do for her and how valuable she was in CoM. She was the whole point in that game, and very valuable to them until she stopped being just a pawn.

Third, they only give X names to their members. Namine isn't a member.

Which on itself can support my theory since if she's not a Nobody they would only use her instead of making her join. They use from Crawlers up to Sorcerers. Namine could give them the Keyblade Master on a silver plater. Why wouldn't they want her in the organization, unless she rebelled or something so they put her in isolation?

 

[afrobutt]

1) PoHs are only really mentioned in KH1. Afterwards no one refers to Kairi as a PoH. On the other hand, look at the vast amount of times Sora's refered to as a KM, Riku as a wielder of Darknes, and a Keyblade Wielder, Roxas's connection to the Keyblade, etc. Kairi's connection to the PoH is lacking at best.

...and? Once again, u've managed to point out something pointless >.<. Maybe they just don't care about her. Regardless, she's still a Princess of Heart, she was one of the keys to opening the Keyhole of HB. This implyies she has a heart

2) You still don't contradict her body remained. Beacuse the lack of Darkness it didn't go poof to be recreated differently in the Realm of Darkness - something even the stronger Nobodies go through which explains the differences in appearences. Sora turned Heartless, his body disappeared, and we got Roxas who materialized elsewhere with slightly different looks. Kairi's body, however, stayed right where it is... or not, come to think of it - she disappeared along with the islands and materialized somewhere else when the islands went poof. PoH status could explain why she still looks the same but she did lose her heart and her body vanished. Go tell me those facts are wrong too.

You lost me. Because of my confusion, I'm just gonna repeat myself. Kairi lost her heart at DI, then when it went away she was warped elsewhere just like the rest of DI's residents. Because she was a PoH her body remained in the Realm of Light, but since she had no heart she was all zombie like. Granted this is like being a Nobody, but not rlly cuz she couldn't think or anything, just go Soooooooora. Then Sora stabbed himself, and Kairi got her heart back. B/c Sora lost 2 hearts, two Nobodies were made. Then Kairi gave Sora a hug and he came back.

3)

Much like Roxas had Sora's Keyblade powers due to him being his Nobody (ok even if you wanna say he has his own heart, he has TWO Keyblades. That means Sora's in there somewhere as well), the same could be said about a PoH's powers (and since she's the only PoH ever to lose her heart, there's nothing to base nor contradict this). Who's to say Namine's powers as PoH didn't linger on in Kairi?
Ok you know what? A point that bothered me since forever, especially in the way it was shown. Why didn't Kairi help the other PoHs in Hollow Bastion? Sora said she'd get in his way; they never talked about that. Also - hey, he turned into a Heartless and she got him back. How'd that be getting in his way if she could do that again? Or more?
Who knows, maybe she depleted the PoH powers she had when she pulled him back from being a Heartless, and was only able to get access to them again when Namine and her met again in KH2?

More random info. In this context, maybe Roxas is a PoH too? Hell, maybe now Sora might be part PoH and they can all go to their Heart castle and be queens together (Sarcasm end) Sora didn't want Kairi around, so he left her at TT. And to awnser your final pointless question, Maybe Kairi just nvr lost her PoH powers. Done

 

[Smile]

I'm just happy to see people are taking me seriously *rolls eyes*

 

[Wehrmacht]

I'm just happy to see people are taking me seriously *rolls eyes*

You would be surprised at what people take seriously on these forums.

As for your OP, tl:dr at the moment. However, I can tell from the thread title and the posts on this page that something is obviously wrong with your thought process.

Now let's see...

 

[Smile]

However, I can tell from the thread title and the posts on this page that something is obviously wrong with your thought process.

Now let's see...

Do tell, this sounds interesting o,o

 

[Wehrmacht]

Mmkay.

Kairi in Kingdom Hearts 1Once the Islands disappear, Kairi's Heart migrates to Sora's Body, leaving Kairi as a physical existence made up from A Body and a Soul, and yet NO HEART. The very definition of a Nobody.

Except she wasn't. This is a special case. If her body and soul had gone off somewhere by themselves, and created another being with a different personality/appearance, then it would have been a nobody.

Her Heart, having interfered directly with Sora's as said in the Secret Ansem Reports, later gives Birth to Namine's powers over his Memories. Not only are the Nobody's Memories connected to someone else, they were given birth by a direct connection of Hearts

Okay, and....?

When you look at characteristics, you'll find most Nobodies (with the Exception of Roxas and Namine) have two charictaristics. One changes from Nobody to Nobody according to his Somebody's strongest traits or lasting impression. Xemnas is the Superior, simple put. Look at Xehanort's Heartless and we can match. Xigbar's a Hill-Billy. Xaldin's strict. Vexen's a science-holic. Lexeaus is silent and stern. Zexion is a conspiring b*tch. Axel is ironically passionate. Demyx is rather infantile and childish. Luxord is British. Marluxia and Larxene have ego issues.

K, Xigbar is not a hillbilly, <.<. Also Zexion is more manipulative than anything. Also lol british Luxord.

Aside from that one identifying character trait, they'll be prone to bursts of anger, which is by far one of the emotions that is mostly related to instincts than thought.

Eh, they were provoked very often. People are constantly antagonizing them. They even antagonize one another from the looks of it. Also, when did Xemnas, Luxord, and Saix get angry? And no, Saix's berserk mode doesn't really count.

When dealing with Kairi, it's hard not to notice she smiles just about throughout the entire games, save for when Sora turns into a Heartless.
That's where our Anger management kicks in.
Also look at her KH2 colors - it's staring us in the face - Pink for the smile, and redhead for the anger.

Uh, Saix. She got angry at him. Also, that can be attributed to the fact that we don't really see her very often. She's not in many situations where she would be angry. Girl needs moar screen time and character development is all.

Namine on the other hand shows just about any and all emotions you can think of, from despair, depression and self hatered, through ambition and determination to laughter and happiness and hope upon being "reunited" with Sora at the end of CoM.

Naminé is a special nobody. Hence explaining why she would have them. Probably something to do with Kairi still being around and hence her channeling emotions through Kairi's heart or the like.

I said Secret Ansem Reports? Reread them plzkthxbai. He said so himself -
"She was born from the same process as a Nobody and yet she lacks all the traits of a Nobody".

Eh, he was making a pretty general statement.

Aside from that he keeps bringing up theories after theories that some contradict each other. Basically, despite the reports' intentions of telling us what's going on there, Ansem the Wise is actually saying Lol I don't know what she is.
Also, he's not the most objective person when it comes to Nobodies in general and anything that has to do with the Organization in particular. Even if Namine isn't the real Nobody, he'd go out of his way trying to prove she is because Kairi's considered a Princess of Heart while Namine was a Tool for the Organization.

Even so, I would like to think his opinion holds more weight than yours because AtW is, well, wise, and has spent years studying the heart. Until they are contradicted by Nomura or the games, AtW's word is the only thing we have to go on.

When she was created - Namine says in CoM that she "was alone for so long." Assuming she truly came into "existence" when Sora released Kairi's Heart from his body, that only left her to be found by the Organization and put in solitude... what, a week? Two? A month tops? And even that's exaggerating since plot wise from the moment Sora turned into a Heartless to the start of CoM it hasn't been that long.

Eh. It probably seemed like a long time to her. I mean, it's not like she'd have a watch inside that castle and I doubt she would have a very good grasp of time considering how that's probably how Marluxia wanted her to feel like so she would be more willing to do his bidding for him.

Another point - why in the blazes would the Organization built Castle Oblivion without Namine? It's based on Memories, and AtW concluded their experiments were based around Namine and her ability to manipulate Memories. Even with all the help from the Nobodies, it would still take months to build the place - but if we say Castle Oblivion was built because of Namine, that means Namine was created months ago -
At the latest, she was created at the start of KH1, when Kairi lost her Heart when the islands disappeared.

FM+ reference to support this -

Spoiler Show

Vexen and Zexion are talking about moving into their almost complete Castle Oblivion and then
Xigbar comes and tells them how he only just recruited Marluxia.
Even before Larxene, quite a while before Roxas.

That's quite a while.

As already explained to you, they did not build the castle, they found it. Also, AtW contradicts you and I still trust him more.

=3

 

[Smile]

And yet nothing beats your ego jeez

 

[Wehrmacht]

And yet nothing beats your ego jeez

=3 Tell me something I don't know.

But in all seriousness I apologize if I sounded mean or egotistical. I wasn't trying to be.

 

[Smile]

Meh XD;;; not really back just came here digging for some stuff.
All I have to say is what I already said before -
AtW has all the reasons to use Namine being a Nobody as basis for everything that happened rather than the other way around since he's just about the least objective person in existence when it comes to anything that has to do with the organization and Namine had to do with them.
2 - if KH1 taught us anything is that everything presented as fact is to be doubted and eventually contradicted in following games XD; so I'm hopeful