Is chivalry dead?



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Is chivalry dead


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Soldier

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Hello,

By this point, most of you have probably heard of chivalry, which was essentially an old code of conduct used in the middle ages for knights. the definition varies over the ages, but here is the basic gist of it
1: be courageous
2: be selfless (put others before yourself)
3: Protect women and orphans, even if they aren't blood related, or are married to someone else.
Basically doing the right thing for anyone and anything you come across, or that's one variant of it. Some twisted it to their own making, another involves pretty much adultery etc. But i'm not focusing on those negative qualities because let's face it, no matter where we are in the world, there is enough of that around.
Of course, as the centuries passed, less and less people began to follow this code, and the ones that did often weren't on the good side of history so to speak, which I find kind of depressing. I know i'll get mixed opinions on this but I think a society with chivalry as a cornerstone feature would have less problems. It doesn't need to be too in depth, just the simple, good hearted formalities of opening the door for a woman or helping someone in need would be fine on their own. So what do you think, is chivalry dead?
Personally speaking, I try to uphold this system in my daily life. Nothing too grand mind you, I'll open the door for a woman or put the needs of others before my own. Little things that in the grand scheme, aren't major, but they do some good.
 

Meow Wow

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Modern Chivalry isn't exactly dead but seems to be staggering, especially in the youth. I see plenty of men (who are likley 30+ And have families) who still practice chivalry but more and more I'm seeing less younger men and kids being taught to be polite to woman by their parents. This is especially prominent in families with no boundaries or lack of rules, which is unfortunately becoming more common. Many teenage and millennial men seem to not care how they treat women and children. I've seen some not even open the door for their girlfriends; which personally makes my blood boil.
Some men I've talked to have said that they're afraid to be polite to woman because of how the woman may react (this is mainly stemmed in 3rd wave feminism and how some of the extremists act creating that fear for them).

On the other hand, I've seen a lot of men, old and young, who are very polite to woman and still practice chivalry. They still open doors for women and children, they still try to help woman and children and are very well rounded and good moraled overall. I can't speak for other cities/states on this because where I live, we're pretty conservative and chivalry is expected from a lot of men. Then again, many of the people I mentioned in the first paragraph moved in from out of state........
Long story short. It's ok in my area of the country but I don't know about others.
 
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Launchpad

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The implication that men should reserve niceties and small helpful gestures for just women is probably more sexist than doing nothing at all.

If a man is unwilling to do these things for other men, it not only implies that women are incapable of taking care of themselves, but calls into question the true intentions of the 'helpful man'.

I'm not interested in doing extraneous favors for strangers very often. I think women usually assume the worst when a male stranger approaches for anything, as men are often lascivious and have a poor reputation for preying upon women in public.

Chivalry isn't dead, people are in fact more mindful and aware of one another's plights today than they have ever been. It's just that old definition of 'chivalry' is odd and serves to create a larger divide between people rather than bringing them closer together.
 

alexis.anagram

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On principle, there's nothing wrong with being kind to other people and looking out for their best interests.

In practice, chivalry has been used to justify pushing people (in particular women and queer folks) out of positions of influence and high stature in society, and as an excuse to keep women dependent in order to affirm masculine demagoguery both within and outside of the household-- which itself is not a role befitting of all men. As gender roles are being expanded there's really no use for chivalry per se; what's the point when a man can be as or more effeminate than the women around him, and have that be a celebrated fact of their friendship (as it ought to be). Queer and trans gender theory break this down further, because the basic dichotomous framework of "male honor" established vis-a-vis the subversion of female autonomy just doesn't hold up when you view it through the lens of a culture that doesn't place any value on, or at least doesn't value the same definition of, that premise.

Basically it's part of a really restrictive and period-specific Eurocentric outline of gender norms, and therefore an unrealistic expectation to foist upon a diverse national and global society which exists, you know, right now. It's dying of natural causes.
 

Chuman

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the words neckbeard come to mind. chivalry is an outdated concept and being “nice” to women because of their gender is usually done by guys who expect something in return and speaks volumes about how they view ladies. if you can’t hold the door you’re kind of an asshole- that’s common courtesy.
 

Meow Wow

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I think another problem is that if you practice chivalry, you're regarded as a creep; and if you don't, you're regarded as an asshole.

I also think it depends on the context of what he's doing. For a complete stranger, I don't think anyone would go for more than holding a door or helping someone who very clearly is struggling and needs help(with asking first, of course). Odviously, this isn't very creepy by its own, but if a man were to be going beyond acts of common courtesy then I would start to think it's a little creepy.

In its self, there is nothing wrong with teaching a little boy to be a gentleman when he grows up and giving him the tools to be able to do so. I think it produces a better result than letting them do what they want without consequences. Especially when dating comes in the picture, because that's when chivalry becomes a large factor. Most woman won't go on another date with a man again if he doesn't practice chivalry on the first [few] dates despite saying chivalry isn't nessarally. It bleeds into things like paying the bill and again, holding the door. So to say Chivalry isn't nessassary and dead isn't exactly true but to say it's alive and well isn't exactly true too. It's one of those mixed situations.
 

Launchpad

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the words neckbeard come to mind. chivalry is an outdated concept and being “nice” to women because of their gender is usually done by guys who expect something in return and speaks volumes about how they view ladies. if you can’t hold the door you’re kind of an asshole- that’s common courtesy.
DO NOT HOLD OPEN THE DOOR FOR ME. I AM LAZY AND SLOW AND I'M PROBABLY READING SOMETHING. I WILL INTENTIONALLY SLOW DOWN IF YOU HOLD THE DOOR FROM FAR AWAY.
 

Chuman

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DO NOT HOLD OPEN THE DOOR FOR ME. I AM LAZY AND SLOW AND I'M PROBABLY READING SOMETHING. I WILL INTENTIONALLY SLOW DOWN IF YOU HOLD THE DOOR FROM FAR AWAY.
holding the door for someone 20 feet away is really awkward and that makes it wack lol, but if someone is a few feet behind you and is gonna have to reopen it when you let it shut in their faces then its the right thing to do imo
 

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Just gotta remember the right code-words for holding doors and you're good to go.

Girl: M'lady
Guy: M'laddie
Infectious Disease: Malady
 

Launchpad

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holding the door for someone 20 feet away is really awkward and that makes it wack lol, but if someone is a few feet behind you and is gonna have to reopen it when you let it shut in their faces then its the right thing to do imo
Don't hold it open and make me walk past you, just hold it open so I can then take hold of the door myself and we can both proceed.
 

Chuman

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Don't hold it open and make me walk past you, just hold it open so I can then take hold of the door myself and we can both proceed.
i’ma stop you right here dude. its sounding a little like we’re about to go on our first date and discussing proper ettiquite beforehand. i’ll just agree, let this convo die out, and make it clear you arent my type
 

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i’ma stop you right here dude. its sounding a little like we’re about to go on our first date and discussing proper ettiquite beforehand. i’ll just agree, let this convo die out, and make it clear you arent my type
We're not going to meet after work and you are definitely not getting cookie.
 

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In practice, chivalry has been used to justify pushing people (in particular women and queer folks) out of positions of influence and high stature in society, and as an excuse to keep women dependent in order to affirm masculine demagoguery both within and outside of the household-- which itself is not a role befitting of all men. As gender roles are being expanded there's really no use for chivalry per se; what's the point when a man can be as or more effeminate than the women around him, and have that be a celebrated fact of their friendship (as it ought to be). Queer and trans gender theory break this down further, because the basic dichotomous framework of "male honor" established vis-a-vis the subversion of female autonomy just doesn't hold up when you view it through the lens of a culture that doesn't place any value on, or at least doesn't value the same definition of, that premise.

Basically it's part of a really restrictive and period-specific Eurocentric outline of gender norms, and therefore an unrealistic expectation to foist upon a diverse national and global society which exists, you know, right now. It's dying of natural causes.
Even as power dynamics between genders evens out, there are still instances where women are more prone to danger than others and would benefit from protection, night life being the prime example. At best, they're harassed; at worst, they're sold into human trafficking. Personally, I've spent a few nights looking after friends who got roofied somewhere along the way; I've also heard of less fortunate stories from others.

On principle, there's nothing wrong with being kind to other people and looking out for their best interests.
That's what modern chivalry should boil down to (or become, I should say). However, I think that traditional chivalry has acknowledged that women tend to be more preyed on than men, and therefore the practice offers itself as a sort of solution, even if just a band-aid solution at that.
 
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alexis.anagram

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Even as power dynamics between genders evens out, there are still instances where women are more prone to danger than others and would benefit from protection, night life being the prime example. At best, they're harassed; at worst, they're sold into human trafficking. Personally, I've spent a few nights looking after friends who got roofied somewhere along the way; I've also heard of less fortunate stories from others.
That's not chivalry, it's just being a good friend. Girls can do this for other girls, guys can do this for other guys. Queer and especially trans people & communities experience the highest risk factors in this regard and with gender norms being deliberately flipped and/or distorted it's common that "chivalry" becomes mocking and theatrical on purpose.

Just because a guy happens to do something nice for a girl does not constitute chivalry. Chivalry is a code of etiquette which emphasizes female fragility as a means to assert/justify/reinforce male authority in social spaces. It's one thing to acknowledge that women are frequently targets of sexual assault. It's another thing to derive from that a conclusion that women need a male chaperone to accompany them when they go out, and/or that female behavior should be monitored by men in order to ensure their safety. That's not a solution in any sense, and again, it's telling that you don't hear men, as a matter of "proper" conduct, talk about accompanying their gay male friends to the bar in order to make sure they get home safely.

That's what modern chivalry should boil down to (or become, I should say). However, I think that traditional chivalry has acknowledged that women tend to be more preyed on than men, and therefore the practice offers itself as a sort of solution, even if just a band-aid solution at that.
It really isn't a solution at all because it frames rape and assault as a matter of individual decision-making (if I'd just had my friend Tommy with me it wouldn't have happened) rather than the larger cultural problem that it is. Again, anyone of any gender can prevent an individual act of sexual assault under the right circumstances, but that doesn't deal with the underlying reality of male/masculine attitudes of entitlement towards women/femmes and chivalry, in practice, only heightens that factor.
 

FFEDerek

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It's not dead but it's not a socially mandatory thing anymore nor specific to gender. It is sweet when it's done but the reality is that we're all adults (or well, some of us?) that should only be expected to respect one another; not endlessly pamper. Grand gestures are reserved for wooing, not expected behavior.
 

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Disclaimer: None of these are facts. Just observations and opinions, feel free to give yours, correct me, etc.


Well, if you want a break down, try these supporting arguments.

+Modern Feminism
+The Existence of Meninist in the current day
+Rape Culture & By extension the perception of men [insert Incel Argument here]
+Modern Day Social Media outlets indirectly amplifying general insensitivity with so much power to "fight back"
+Current psychology and mental state of the youth and respective perceptions


Personally. Morality is largely different lets say now to compared when the baby boomers were in their teens, 20s, and early 30s. Whatever was the societal norm at the time, is not the societal norm today. The evolution of people's opinions, thoughts, and perceptions largely dictates a variety of different opinions, and unfortunately, certain things that used to be set in stone and were universally accepted, are now either held in contempt or questioned as it is no longer a universally shared ideal.

The only thing that seems to still be universally understood and accepted as courtesy, is holding open doors bro. Pretty much how I see it being sliced up I guess.
 
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