• Hello everybody! We have tons of new awards for the new year that can be requested through our Awards System thanks to Antifa Lockhart! Some are limited-time awards so go claim them before they are gone forever...

    CLICK HERE FOR AWARDS

TV ► Game of Thrones - please hold the door



REGISTER TO REMOVE ADS
Status
Not open for further replies.

Max

"There's always money in the banana stand."
Staff member
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
6,347
Awards
86
Age
31
Location
The End of Time
Finally saw this season's budget put to good use this episode. It's not like I expect every episode to be a blowout, far from it, I understand the importance of setting up the plot, but man those first three episode were a slow burn. With less than ten episodes left and essentially two different wars on the front, it's nice to see a huge move on screen and get some dragons fucking shit up.

Honestly the only thing I'm not a super big fan of this season is Bran. What a waste, talk about poor writing.
 

Sephiroth0812

Guardian of Light
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
10,531
Awards
37
Location
Germany
Except they're not traitors though. Anyone who sides with Dany is a traitor. The Tarlys are just doing their duty to the crown by killing the actual traitors.

You obviously haven't paid attention to the actual events that happened in season 6.
House Tyrell, through Queen Margaery, was legitimate part of the crown until Cersei murdered two whole generations of them in order to ursurp the throne for herself. Cersei is neither a legitimate monarch nor do the houses of the Reach including Tarly owe her any loyalty.
It is the same situation as with all the Northern houses after the Lannisters murdered Eddard Stark in Season 1 or the murders of Rickard and Brandon Stark by the Mad King which led to Roberts Rebellion in the first place.
Olenna Tyrell and the Reach breaking away from "the crown" is in this case no different and certainly more justified than what Dorne does since Oberyn Martell wasn't murdered, he agreed to a trial by combat and lost, but Ellaria Sand apparently never got that through her thick head.


I mean, he was. By Olenna.
Yep, even in her last scene she still owns the whole performance.

From Jaime's expression I got the vibe he didn't really feel like a "victor" there.

That being said though, I do not actually blame anything on Jaime here, as it is portrayed pretty well that he still tries to keep casualties down and foregoes needless cruelty.
Him indirectly outwitting Tyrion by using a strategy originally deployed by Robb Stark against him is also pretty impressive.
When looking at the current roster of Lannister characters Cersei is truly the only remaining "problem" as it is just as Lady Olenna told him, Jaime is more or less wasting his considerable talent and prowess in the service of his mad sister (which also is a total departure from the books where Jaime more or less ditched Cersei already during the Siege of Riverrun).

In Randyll Tarly's defense, Jaime brought up some pretty good points about the greater good of Westeros (not that we really agree with him), particularly the Dothraki raping and pillaging like Greyjoys on coke. They're more like the southern Glovers; they're allegiance to the Tyrells is sworn and acted upon. When convenient.
I agree on the part of Jaime's general arguments concerning the Dothraki, as Tyrion also made the same arguments to Daenerys, but not on the "greater good of Westeros" parts as when one compares Cersei and Daenerys, Cersei certainly is NOT the "lesser" evil when it comes to Westeros as a whole including the smallfolk.
I'm fuzzy right now if it was actually addressed how much the other Reach houses or the public in general knows about the whole Wildfire explosion that destroyed the Sept and killed the mainline Tyrells (Olenna isn't even a true Tyrell, she's a Redwyne who married into the house), but Randyll Tarly could have at least put the dots together as to why House Tyrell suddenly "switched sides" when they were in league with the Lannisters and the crown beforehand. It isn't that difficult.
Heck, Mace Tyrell and Jaime even led the Tyrell army together last season so for the Tyrells to suddenly turn around and support a Targaryen restoration must have had a greater reason.

There is a key difference though.
The Glovers were weary and exhausted from the War of the five Kings, the Ironborn attacks and the Red Wedding so they refused to aid the Starks (as in Sansa and Jon), but they didn't betray them and actively fought on the side of their enemies.

If you want to compare a northern house to the Tarlys, a better comparison would be the Umbers. They actively sided with the Boltons and fought against the Starks, strictly spoken they're also those who are actually to blame for the death of Rickon Stark because they brought him into Ramsay Boltons reach in the first place (which is why I can understand Sansa advocating for a more harsh approach to the Umbers in Episode 1 of this season, although Jon's decision may hold the greater long-term benefit).

House Tarly did not only refuse to follow the Tyrells like the Glovers did with the Starks, they actively aided the Lannisters in sacking Highgarden and stealing both the gold and the food of the Reach (which is their own region btw).


Sephiroth's referring to the Tarly's allegiance to house Tyrell, though. In that case, they were in a Jaime Lannister situation where they were bound to screw someone over.
Exactly, and I also dare to propose that the Tarlys or any Reach house for that matter don't owe Cersei any loyalty or oath due to her mass murdering their liege lords Mace, Loras and Margaery Tyrell.
When the Mad King killed Rickard and Brandon Stark (Eddards father and brother) the affected houses also rose in Rebellion so I don't see where there is any difference now concerning Olenna and the Tyrells.

Cersei effectively went Mad Queen in the season 6 finale and did exactly what Jaime killed the Mad King for to prevent.

There's also the fact that Cersei took the throne by force, amidst fear over what happened to Queen Margaery/the High Sparrow. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the people think she killed her own son, tbh (who knows if there'll ever be a book ending to the series to see the fallout from that). The Tarlys chose personal greed over loyalty to the Tyrells and it'll be fun watching their house wiped out as a result.

Correct, as I stated above though I'm not sure how much the public and the other noble houses in Westeros as a whole actually know about the wildfire explosion of the Sept.
That Cersei has some support beyond Qyburn to her claim to the throne might indicate not everyone is aware of/it has not been proven that it was her who orchestrated the whole thing.
And then there's of course also the Zombie-Mountain to take into account.

Considering how Dany reacts to betrayal in general (and what she said to Varys back in Episode 2) I could imagine her feeding Randyll to Drogon if he survived the battle and it would serve him right.
I just hope she won't overdo it and wipe out the whole house (as in Samwells mother and sister, even Dickon should probably be spared), as in this case she would step down to Cersei's level and provide her with more propaganda to paint herself as the "lesser evil".
Cersei is cunning in this regard and would gladly take such a chance up if Dany lets herself make such an error.
 

Zero Sora

Now comes with 50% more bullshit
Joined
Apr 7, 2005
Messages
2,805
Awards
4
Age
34
Location
Australia
Nayru's Love said:
Sephiroth's referring to the Tarly's allegiance to house Tyrell, though. In that case, they were in a Jaime Lannister situation where they were bound to screw someone over.

I get that. I just think it's ironic to call them traitors when they are doing the exact opposite due to their loyalty to the crown superseding all other loyalties.

You obviously haven't paid attention to the actual events that happened in season 6.
I have actually been paying attention, but thanks for talking down to me anyway.

House Tyrell, through Queen Margaery, was legitimate part of the crown until Cersei murdered two whole generations of them in order to ursurp the throne for herself. Cersei is neither a legitimate monarch nor do the houses of the Reach including Tarly owe her any loyalty.
That's not how the monarchy system works. Legitimacy or not, Margaery's family, AND the Cersei have zero claim to the throne. The rightful monarch is a Baratheon. It keeps going up the male line until a proper heir is found. Rob's kids are dead, so then it falls to his brothers. His brothers are dead, then it falls to his father or uncles. Or their father and uncles. It only ever falls to a queen when she is an only child or eldest child of all girls. It never goes up the line of succession on the queen's side of the family. So, the Tyrell's and Lannister's have no claim to the throne despite being married into the family.

Cersei has usurped the throne, making her the rightful ruler now, much like how Robert became King. By going against the rightful ruler, no matter how new, or how illegitimate, you are still a traitor to the crown. Your loyalty, first and foremost, is to the crown and who's head it sits upon. So the Tarly's do in fact owe Cersei their loyalty because they are loyal to the crown which sits upon her head. It doesn't matter who you pledged your eternal loyalty to, the crown comes about all else. Yes, I know. It's bullshit semantics. Unfortunately that's how things go. Everyone else will cease being traitors if Dany wins the throne. But for now, they are considered traitors to the crown.

It is the same situation as with all the Northern houses after the Lannisters murdered Eddard Stark in Season 1 or the murders of Rickard and Brandon Stark by the Mad King which led to Roberts Rebellion in the first place. Olenna Tyrell and the Reach breaking away from "the crown" is in this case no different and certainly more justified than what Dorne does since Oberyn Martell wasn't murdered, he agreed to a trial by combat and lost, but Ellaria Sand apparently never got that through her thick head.

Exactly. It's no different. Breaking away from the crown makes you a traitor.
 

Sephiroth0812

Guardian of Light
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
10,531
Awards
37
Location
Germany

I get that. I just think it's ironic to call them traitors when they are doing the exact opposite due to their loyalty to the crown superseding all other loyalties.
I don't remember it being said that loyalty to the crown has to/should supersede everything else, as this would for example have forced Jaime to become a kinslayer when the Mad King ordered him to kill his own father.
Kinslaying is one of the highest taboos in Westeros, probably right behind breaking guest right (hence why the Freys and Ramsay Bolton are both especially despicable even in the morally rotten setting that is GoT).

I have actually been paying attention, but thanks for talking down to me anyway.
Nah, in fact after rereading that part I have to profoundly apologize. My wording there was way off the rails.

That's not how the monarchy system works. Legitimacy or not, Margaery's family, AND the Cersei have zero claim to the throne. The rightful monarch is a Baratheon. It keeps going up the male line until a proper heir is found. Rob's kids are dead, so then it falls to his brothers. His brothers are dead, then it falls to his father or uncles. Or their father and uncles. It only ever falls to a queen when she is an only child or eldest child of all girls. It never goes up the line of succession on the queen's side of the family. So, the Tyrell's and Lannister's have no claim to the throne despite being married into the family.

Cersei has usurped the throne, making her the rightful ruler now, much like how Robert became King. By going against the rightful ruler, no matter how new, or how illegitimate, you are still a traitor to the crown. Your loyalty, first and foremost, is to the crown and who's head it sits upon. So the Tarly's do in fact owe Cersei their loyalty because they are loyal to the crown which sits upon her head. It doesn't matter who you pledged your eternal loyalty to, the crown comes about all else. Yes, I know. It's bullshit semantics. Unfortunately that's how things go. Everyone else will cease being traitors if Dany wins the throne. But for now, they are considered traitors to the crown.

Exactly. It's no different. Breaking away from the crown makes you a traitor.

If we really want to argue semantics though the most "legitimate" claimant to the throne would be technically Gendry as he's, bastard or not, a true child of Robert Baratheon.
All other "Baratheons" are either dead or omitted from the TV Series which has taken a life of its own compared to the books (if we talk the books Olenna wouldn't even be in charge of House Tyrell because Mace has two other sons besides Loras and I highly doubt that they would all go boom if the events from the finale of the 6th season also happen somehow in the books).

It's really plain semantics then, lol, as I was indeed referring to their more direct loyalty to their liege lords.
But lets wait and see how Daenerys handles this. Randyll Tarly himself should certainly get some just desserts for betraying his liege lord, but if she extends it to the whole family/house she's not really any better than Cersei.
 

Zero Sora

Now comes with 50% more bullshit
Joined
Apr 7, 2005
Messages
2,805
Awards
4
Age
34
Location
Australia
I don't remember it being said that loyalty to the crown has to/should supersede everything else, as this would for example have forced Jaime to become a kinslayer when the Mad King ordered him to kill his own father. Kinslaying is one of the highest taboos in Westeros, probably right behind breaking guest right (hence why the Freys and Ramsay Bolton are both especially despicable even in the morally rotten setting that is GoT).

Loyalty to the crown being absolute is generally how a monarchy operates. Defying your King is an act of treason.

If we really want to argue semantics though the most "legitimate" claimant to the throne would be technically Gendry as he's, bastard or not, a true child of Robert Baratheon.

Considering how many of Robert's bastards were slaughtered, I could see a bastard as have a legitimate claim to the throne. However, that being said, it is possible the "Naturally Dead" rule applies in GoT. "Naturally Dead" means a bastard has zero claim to the throne as they are considered "dead" as soon as they are conceived. But, just because the "Naturally Dead" rule exists, this doesn't always stop bastards from trying to usurp the throne for themselves. Which is why they would still be killed, just to be safe.

It's really plain semantics then, lol, as I was indeed referring to their more direct loyalty to their liege lords. But lets wait and see how Daenerys handles this. Randyll Tarly himself should certainly get some just desserts for betraying his liege lord, but if she extends it to the whole family/house she's not really any better than Cersei.

I want him dead too. Mainly because he's been a huge dick to Sam though.
 
Last edited:
D

Deleted member 36435

Guest
season reminder the show is poorly written fan fiction

ok i'll be back in a year
 

Noir

Bronze Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
Messages
2,417
Awards
11
Age
30
Books are great. Show is great.
I don't get the problemo.

All I know is this season has been some of the best I've seen.

Besides, it can't be that bad of a fanfiction. We haven't reached levels of yiffing yet. Someone would have tried shipping the Direwolves with something by now.
 

Max

"There's always money in the banana stand."
Staff member
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
6,347
Awards
86
Age
31
Location
The End of Time
Books are great. Show is great.
I don't get the problemo.

All I know is this season has been some of the best I've seen.

Besides, it can't be that bad of a fanfiction. We haven't reached levels of yiffing yet. Someone would have tried shipping the Direwolves with something by now.

But yeah. Ghost and Sansa for life <3 and they name their little one Jon.
 

Zero Sora

Now comes with 50% more bullshit
Joined
Apr 7, 2005
Messages
2,805
Awards
4
Age
34
Location
Australia
Books are great. Show is great.
I don't get the problemo.

Yes, the show is great and the books are also great. However, compared to the books, the show is a piece of shit. I don't actually think that, I'm just parroting everyone who hates the show and prefers the books.

Personally, I'm just amazed that a piece of shit is a worldwide phenomenon. /s
 

Zero Sora

Now comes with 50% more bullshit
Joined
Apr 7, 2005
Messages
2,805
Awards
4
Age
34
Location
Australia
Well diddly me sideways. We have two more characters with a claim to the throne: Jon, and the returning Gendry. With the reveal that Rhaegar annulled his first marriage and then married Lyanna, this means Jon is not a bastard at all. He is now the true born heir to the Targaryen throne. He has a batter claim to the throne than Dany now. If Dany ever found out, I wonder how she would handle this? This could potentially set the two of them at odds. I'm interesting in seeing how all these characters with claims to the iron throne play out.

Also, man I'm really loving Gendry right now. Dude is badass.

Also forgot one thing. That is one awesome line up for the mission north of the wall.
 

Max

"There's always money in the banana stand."
Staff member
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
6,347
Awards
86
Age
31
Location
The End of Time
Well diddly me sideways. We have two more characters with a claim to the throne: Jon, and the returning Gendry. With the reveal that Rhaegar annulled his first marriage and then married Lyanna, this means Jon is not a bastard at all. He is now the true born heir to the Targaryen throne. He has a batter claim to the throne than Dany now. If Dany ever found out, I wonder how she would handle this? This could potentially set the two of them at odds. I'm interesting in seeing how all these characters with claims to the iron throne play out.

Also, man I'm really loving Gendry right now. Dude is badass.

Also forgot one thing. That is one awesome line up for the mission north of the wall.

Yeah, now this was definitely a good episode, definitely set up several awesome plot threads for the remainder of the series. Can't wait to see how this unravels now, this was definitely my favorite episode of the season so far.
 

Ovafaze

idyllic dream
Joined
Nov 13, 2008
Messages
2,983
Awards
11
I have a feeling Jon will end up killing Dany by the end of it all and fulfill the prophecy of Azor ahai but I know that would be to predictable
 

Zero Sora

Now comes with 50% more bullshit
Joined
Apr 7, 2005
Messages
2,805
Awards
4
Age
34
Location
Australia
Funny, I had the same feeling, but with the roles reversed.

Personally, I just wanna see major characters die. I feel like we've been cheated this season so far.
 
D

Deleted member 36435

Guest
here's who dies for real click at ur own risk
Spoiler Spoiler Show
 

Chuman

Dad of Boy
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
12,681
Awards
44
Age
25
here's who dies for real click at ur own risk
Spoiler Spoiler Show
damn if only you were as much like littlefinger as you like to portray yourself, people could pretend to tolerate you more

tl;dr you know nothing, bigtoe
 

Recon

Art of War
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
5,497
Awards
18
here's who dies for real click at ur own risk
Spoiler Spoiler Show

but what will happen to gendry?
 

Zero Sora

Now comes with 50% more bullshit
Joined
Apr 7, 2005
Messages
2,805
Awards
4
Age
34
Location
Australia
Since people are talking about leaks, I think it's about time I avoid this thread for the next two weeks. I fear I'll click on a spoiler tag and get a leak instead.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top