Can Naminé use a Keyblade?

[PkmnTrainerJ]

As Roxas, being Sora's Nobody can surely Naminé can too? If so, what was the point of Xion, as a back up Roxas? Why not just have Naminé do it?

 

[Sephiroth0812]

And why would Naminé be able to do that?
Roxas can use a keyblade because he's Sora's nobody, he was born from Sora's heart when it succumbed to darkness and inhabited Sora's body.

Naminé is not Sora's nobody and therefore can't use a keyblade.

 

[Mirby]

It's as Sephy said; Naminé is not Sora's Nobody and thus can't wield a Keyblade from Sora.

However, if Kairi were able to (due to touching Aqua's Keyblade) then I think the ability may transfer to Naminé.

As for what Xion was, she wasn't a back-up of Roxas. She is a Replica, much like the Riku fought in Castle Oblivion during Chain of Memories. Her name unscrambled (minus the x) is No. i (referencing how i designates an imaginary number in math and how the members of Org. XIII are numbered), which just shows her Replica nature. The Organization's original plan was to use Sora and his Keyblade to collect hearts for Kingdom Hearts. When that fell through and they happened upon Roxas, they decided to use him to that end. At this point, Xion was already created from the data collected from Sora during CoM, which is why she can use the Keyblade.

As Roxas began to develop and grow, Xion was siphoning his strength to become strong herself. This culminated in the Organization switching their lead heart-gatherer from Roxas to Xion, as Roxas was growing weak. When Xion was destroyed, they were going to use Roxas once again. But he ended up in Twilight_Town.exe and then KH2 begins.

Correct me if I'm wrong on anything here.

 

[Goldpanner]

As for what Xion was, she wasn't a back-up of Roxas. She is a Replica, much like the Riku fought in Castle Oblivion during Chain of Memories. Her name unscrambled (minus the x) is No. i (referencing how i designates an imaginary number in math and how the members of Org. XIII are numbered), which just shows her Replica nature. The Organization's original plan was to use Sora and his Keyblade to collect hearts for Kingdom Hearts. When that fell through and they happened upon Roxas, they decided to use him to that end. At this point, Xion was already created from the data collected from Sora during CoM, which is why she can use the Keyblade.

As Roxas began to develop and grow, Xion was siphoning his strength to become strong herself. This culminated in the Organization switching their lead heart-gatherer from Roxas to Xion, as Roxas was growing weak. When Xion was destroyed, they were going to use Roxas once again. But he ended up in Twilight_Town.exe and then KH2 begins.

Correct me if I'm wrong on anything here.

To make this a bit more condensed, you could say she was a back up of Sora, while getting Roxas was a happy accident for the Org. They didn't really care which one was functional, as long as they had a Keyblade. Because of the link between Sora and Roxas, all the memory fragments Namine had messed up in Sora started floating down into Roxas, making Roxas get stronger. But then Xion, being a copy of Sora, also somehow copied their link, which let her then suck those memories out of him. This made her the stronger one in the end.

And haha Twilight_Town.exe

 

[Mirby]

Don't forget that she also got some of Riku's memories too, which may have aided in her overall strength.

 

[Goldpanner]

Don't forget that she also got some of Riku's memories too, which may have aided in her overall strength.

Welll they said that in the novels, and since the scenario writer for the game wrote those novels, then you could assume so. But at the same time, the novels aren't canon, so unless the Snarl of Memories has been explained in a game or interview, I would say that's not a fact yet.

 

[JustDarkMemories]

Who is namine, actually? I have never wondered where she comes from... enlighten me!

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Welll they said that in the novels, and since the scenario writer for the game wrote those novels, then you could assume so. But at the same time, the novels aren't canon, so unless the Snarl of Memories has been explained in a game or interview, I would say that's not a fact yet.

It was also in a big cutscene in Days. The memories Xion viewed during her nightmare were clearly Riku's, the whole conversation with Zexion are memories that can only belong to Riku.

Also, where was it confirmed that the novels aren't canon?
As far as I know the usual policy is that official supplementary material is within canon as long as it doesn't outright contradict primary sources like the games or the main series creator actually outright says it doesn't belong into the continuity.

Who is namine, actually? I have never wondered where she comes from... enlighten me!

The real answer?
No one knows for real what exactly Naminé is when it comes to the type of being.
Ansem the Wise (DiZ) only labeled her as a nobody because he had no better term to describe her.

Naminé is, to be blunt, literally nothing in terms of the parts of a full being as she has no body or soul, yet she still exists somehow and has a will and mind of her own.

 

[Mirby]

Naminé is a very special... whatever she is. As Sephy said above, the only reason she's labeled as a Nobody is because nothing else fits. And even that term isn't quite accurate...

I'm hoping that they'll explain just WHAT she is in either 3D or 3...

 

[Odysseus]

Well, it's not certain what Naminé even is, but it has come to be accepted that she's some form of Nobody, created from both Sora and Kairi. Seeing as they both can wield Keyblades, I can't see a reason why she wouldn't be able to.

 

[Goldpanner]

It was also in a big cutscene in Days. The memories Xion viewed during her nightmare were clearly Riku's, the whole conversation with Zexion are memories that can only belong to Riku.

Yeah, but nowhere in the game does it say whether it was a one-time thing, or if it had lasting effects. You can assume it does, because there is evidence even in Coded that Sora has got Riku memories inside him, but until we know for sure we can't talk like it's 100% true.

Also, where was it confirmed that the novels aren't canon?
As far as I know the usual policy is that official supplementary material is within canon as long as it doesn't outright contradict primary sources like the games or the main series creator actually outright says it doesn't belong into the continuity.

That's what canon means, the original source texts. This is because canon doesn't (or shouldn't in a well written series) change, it's only built upon. The fact that things in interviews and novels can contradict the source material means that even when they don't, or haven't yet, they need to be taken with a grain of salt, aka they exist on a sort of second-tier and even third-tier canon.

What you describe as 'the usual policy' is something each gamer, or each community, decides for themselves. I say this as someone who has dedicated a lot of time and effort into translating those interviews and novels, so don't think I don't consider them important.

Besides, do you really expect Nomura to come out and say 'lol guys the stuff in the novels is often wrong and also sometimes I change my mind after interviews'? People make money from supplementary material, that's why they pump it out in the first place. He's not going to try and make them sound unimportant.

 

[billyzanesucks]

I'm hoping that they'll explain just WHAT she is in either 3D or 3...

Maybe it will be explained when the scene with Kairi at the mansion is shown.

 

[Neptun]

considering Namine can only alter the memories of Sora (and those connected to him, blah), it's obvious that there is a deep connection between those two. In fact, Ansem speculates that Namine had a direct contact with Sora's heart when born. I wouldn't be too surprised if she was able to summon Sora's keyblade and use it.

in fact, before birth by sleep was released, this was my favourite theory as to why Kairi was able to hold the Destiny Embrace considering she merged with Namine only moments earlier.

 

[Gram]

i can see her maybe being able to at least hold one but no full on summon and kickass with like roxas.
namine, whatever she may truly be, was born when kairi's heart left sora and went back to kairi so like Neptun said she has a strong connection to sora's heart (her memory powers) however she isnt sora's nobody and to be honest we dont even know if she is a nobody.

however her 'other' (kairi) can, at the very most, use a keyblade. so if roxas, who could wield sora's, not only summon sora's and on top of that borrow vens for his duel wielding i dont see why namine couldnt at least hold one without it vanishing, tho cause kairi doesnt have one of her own and seeing as how she isnt sora's nobody she cant use sora's.

Twilight_Town.exe

rofl haha xD nice

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Yeah, but nowhere in the game does it say whether it was a one-time thing, or if it had lasting effects. You can assume it does, because there is evidence even in Coded that Sora has got Riku memories inside him, but until we know for sure we can't talk like it's 100% true.

Does it really matter if it was "one-time" or more often? Fact is Xion gained access to Riku's memories and some of them flowed into Sora due to her ability.
You gave the evidence for that from Coded yourself. If Xion sucked out memories more than once or just this one time is on that regard rather irrelevant since the "damage" is already done, Sora has memories of Riku inside himself due to outside meddling, and I highly doubt it will just be overlooked in the future.

That's what canon means, the original source texts. This is because canon doesn't (or shouldn't in a well written series) change, it's only built upon. The fact that things in interviews and novels can contradict the source material means that even when they don't, or haven't yet, they need to be taken with a grain of salt, aka they exist on a sort of second-tier and even third-tier canon.

What you describe as 'the usual policy' is something each gamer, or each community, decides for themselves. I say this as someone who has dedicated a lot of time and effort into translating those interviews and novels, so don't think I don't consider them important.

Besides, do you really expect Nomura to come out and say 'lol guys the stuff in the novels is often wrong and also sometimes I change my mind after interviews'? People make money from supplementary material, that's why they pump it out in the first place. He's not going to try and make them sound unimportant.

Aren't the novels doing just that? Expanding on the already known material instead of contradicting it?
The manga, yes, I know that one contradicts the "highest" canon more than once but I haven't yet heard from one of the novels doing that.

Really? That's surely not the case in all fandoms, as I know for sure that i.e. Star Wars has an entire official team dedicated to fit written works into the continuity with approval from George Lucas.

I still think there needs to be made a difference between certain "head-canons" for some parts of the fandom who apparently can't accept some facts of the series or that some old explanations turned out to be not entirely correct, the wider overall series-canon (including interviews, the Ultimanias above all and partly the novels) and of course the narrow "purist"-canon who only look at the games themselves.

considering Namine can only alter the memories of Sora (and those connected to him, blah), it's obvious that there is a deep connection between those two. In fact, Ansem speculates that Namine had a direct contact with Sora's heart when born. I wouldn't be too surprised if she was able to summon Sora's keyblade and use it.

in fact, before birth by sleep was released, this was my favourite theory as to why Kairi was able to hold the Destiny Embrace considering she merged with Namine only moments earlier.

As far as we know Naminé was born from Kairi's heart using Sora's body and soul as an intermediary, there was no mention of Sora's heart being involved in Naminé's birth.
Sora's heart gave birth to Roxas, not to Naminé.

Lol, if that would be true Naminé would be the third being to be able to either use or copy Sora's keyblade.

i can see her maybe being able to at least hold one but no full on summon and kickass with like roxas.
namine, whatever she may truly be, was born when kairi's heart left sora and went back to kairi so like Neptun said she has a strong connection to sora's heart (her memory powers) however she isnt sora's nobody and to be honest we dont even know if she is a nobody.

however her 'other' (kairi) can, at the very most, use a keyblade. so if roxas, who could wield sora's, not only summon sora's and on top of that borrow vens for his duel wielding i dont see why namine couldnt at least hold one without it vanishing, tho cause kairi doesnt have one of her own and seeing as how she isnt sora's nobody she cant use sora's.


rofl haha xD nice

That she may be able to hold a keyblade without it immediately vanishing might indeed be possible since Kairi has the potential wielding ability.
Naminé is certainly not the fighting type though so her getting a keyblade would be rather odd.

 

[Goldpanner]

Does it really matter if it was "one-time" or more often? Fact is Xion gained access to Riku's memories and some of them flowed into Sora due to her ability.

"one-time" = snarl of memories was just a bonk up involving Xion, Roxas and Riku
"lasting effects" = the bonk up travelled to Sora and will impact on events in the future

That second one is a very well thought out and well supported theory, but not a 'fact' yet.

You gave the evidence for that from Coded yourself. If Xion sucked out memories more than once or just this one time is on that regard rather irrelevant since the "damage" is already done, Sora has memories of Riku inside himself due to outside meddling, and I highly doubt it will just be overlooked in the future.

I don't get what you are trying to argue. I believe in this theory. I was the one who published the novel evidence for it. I've followed the threads explaining the Coded links. What are you arguing here? There is evidence for our theory therefore everyone can go home, folks?

In fact, there are even counterarguments to what those memories in Coded meant. This is what Audo [reverse-rebirth @ tumblr] had to say to me about it:

the argument, if i remember correctly, is that the memories of Riku we're shown in Coded when the journal is repaired is hinting that Riku's memories are in Sora, right? but that's not what coded says about it. well, not really. in the end, it says that the journal is a "collection of everything we felt together--it's our hearts." this would, obviously, extend to Riku as well, which is why his own memories are there, as well as Mickey's, Sora's, etc. that's how i took it. so it isnt that Sora has Riku's memories, it's that the journal has just a whole wack of shit that shouldnt be possible going on, lol. because it's KH.

here's the specific line: “Gosh, our time together brought back a flood of memories. The day I set out on my first adventure. The day I made a new friend. It made me realize that the journal isn’t just a list of events. It’s a collection of everything we felt together—it’s our hearts.” said by mickey

the Pluto thing is definitely a Mickey memory or whatever, or its related to Mickey, anyway, imo. it's tough in that Coded decides to drop the whole "fix a world, get a cool unseen moment from KH1" after doing it like... twice. but there is absolutely NOTHING to suggest that scene has anything to do with Riku. and given Mickey's comment at the end of the game, about being in Traverse Town the same day Sora was, and how we know he got into the Dark Realm via a naturally occuring COD there, and how Pluto disappears in the beginning of the game only to show at the end with a letter from Mickey, it's clear that scene is showing the moment Mickey went into the Dark Realm, imo.

I don't personally think this necessarily means there aren't Riku memories in Sora, btw.

But you know what? It's still not canon yet.

Aren't the novels doing just that? Expanding on the already known material instead of contradicting it?

Nope. They expand, but only on their own tier. The information they present isn't considered when making new titles, which means they can end up contradicting first-tier canon when new games come out. Axel and Saix's history in the KH2 novels, off the top of my head. And ‘Somewhere in Time’ was completely destroyed by Days, start to finish. You can go look for them yourself, if you like.

Star Wars has an entire official team dedicated to fit written works into the continuity with approval from George Lucas

And if you know enough to say that, you should also know that it is a lot more complicated than that. This summary, for example, includes lots of quotes that show even Leland Chee acknowledges that the 'film-only continuity' only answers to itself.

This doesn't help your argument, btw. You were trying to argue the opposite; that someone has to confirm the novels as not canon. Kind of the way you're talking about the Riku-memory-theory. Something is canon until directly stated otherwise? You're free to develop your own personal canon in that way, as long as you realise if you try to impose it on other people you'll end up in conversations like this.

I still think there needs to be made a difference between certain "head-canons" for some parts of the fandom who apparently can't accept some facts of the series or that some old explanations turned out to be not entirely correct, the wider overall series-canon (including interviews, the Ultimanias above all and partly the novels) and of course the narrow "purist"-canon who only look at the games themselves.

First of all, that is very similar to what I said: that there are different tiers of canon, and that the games are first-tier.

Second of all, when you get down to it, it is very very difficult to separate the headcanon of an individual/fan community with the 'true' canon, because your true canon could very well look like headcanon to someone else. While we're all looking at the same game, we're all interpreting it with our different minds and attitudes and beliefs etc etc. Unless the facts they are using are wrong, I don't think there's a wrong way to interpret something.

 

[Xickin]

Probably not, Roxas was Sora's nobody and could use the Keyblade before he turned into a heartless
Namine was created before Kairi got a Keyblade, and Kairir PHYSICALLY recieved hers from Riku not her heart

 

[Sephiroth0812]

"one-time" = snarl of memories was just a bonk up involving Xion, Roxas and Riku
"lasting effects" = the bonk up travelled to Sora and will impact on events in the future

That second one is a very well thought out and well supported theory, but not a 'fact' yet.

It's been a while I saw the Days-Walktrough, but was Roxas even involved in it? I thought it were only Xion and Riku.
Xion took on Roxas's appearance for a while but I can't remember that he himself was there.

If you look at it that way ok, it can't be counted as a 100% fact yet, but there are very strong hints towards it.

I don't get what you are trying to argue. I believe in this theory. I was the one who published the novel evidence for it. I've followed the threads explaining the Coded links. What are you arguing here? There is evidence for our theory therefore everyone can go home, folks?

In fact, there are even counterarguments to what those memories in Coded meant. This is what Audo [reverse-rebirth @ tumblr] had to say to me about it:

I don't personally think this necessarily means there aren't Riku memories in Sora, btw.

But you know what? It's still not canon yet.

I'm not arguing anything really, lol.
Apparently it's more like we got a different interpretation of what is canon here. ^___^

That whole thing from "Audo" you posted there is plenty much just overgeneralizing things. The things Mickey remembered there were triggered by his adventure with Data-Sora inside the journal, not by Mickey's memories being in the journal.

Nope. They expand, but only on their own tier. The information they present isn't considered when making new titles, which means they can end up contradicting first-tier canon when new games come out. Axel and Saix's history in the KH2 novels, off the top of my head. And ‘Somewhere in Time’ was completely destroyed by Days, start to finish. You can go look for them yourself, if you like.

Ah yeah, now I get it.
When a novel is written and something inside it contradicts already established stuff from a game it is automatically non-canon, however when a later game brings up new stuff that contradicts other stuff in older novels which was considered canon before the new explanation/situation in the new game takes priority.

They fleshed this backstory out in the KH2-novels already? And it contradicts stuff seen in BBS, correct?
I really need to read them...I only read the Reverse-Rebirth one up to since all parts are finished.

Can't read japanese, that's the big hindrance. lol.

And if you know enough to say that, you should also know that it is a lot more complicated than that. This summary, for example, includes lots of quotes that show even Leland Chee acknowledges that the 'film-only continuity' only answers to itself.

This doesn't help your argument, btw. You were trying to argue the opposite; that someone has to confirm the novels as not canon. Kind of the way you're talking about the Riku-memory-theory. Something is canon until directly stated otherwise? You're free to develop your own personal canon in that way, as long as you realise if you try to impose it on other people you'll end up in conversations like this.

Holy crap...what a long essay about that.
In all honesty while I am an avid Star Wars fan I tend to avoid the "wars" concerning the fandom itself.
Still, that one was a very interesting and refreshing read despite its length...and shows that apparently several "fandoms" of different franchises have more or less the same problems.

If anything came over as me "imposing" something I have to apologize, that was clearly not the intention.
I'm just someone who tends to use the "true until disproven" approach more often than the "untrue until proven" since it has a way more positive vibe to it.

On the other hand though I have also no problem with seeing things changing, disproven or explained otherwise in the series since it is still a work in progress.
I won't lash out and scream "retcon" as if it were the baddest thing in the whole world.

First of all, that is very similar to what I said: that there are different tiers of canon, and that the games are first-tier.

Second of all, when you get down to it, it is very very difficult to separate the headcanon of an individual/fan community with the 'true' canon, because your true canon could very well look like headcanon to someone else. While we're all looking at the same game, we're all interpreting it with our different minds and attitudes and beliefs etc etc. Unless the facts they are using are wrong, I don't think there's a wrong way to interpret something.

Yeah, indeed, also I think that our ranking of the tiers varies a bit, as I count both the games and interviews (especially the ultimania-ones) as first-tier, but when in doubt the games still take priority.
The novels would be second-tier level canon while the mangas would land into third-tier.

This is, I realize now, especially true for a series like KH which is also intentionally designed to be interpreted differently by its creator.
I fully agree that in some cases there isn't a wrong way to interpret things, which also makes things more interesting if people remain civil.
Still, some things like i.e. Xemnas is Terra, Roxas is Ventus or Kairi has an own keyblade are plain wrong, there's no arguing about that...

Probably not, Roxas was Sora's nobody and could use the Keyblade before he turned into a heartless
Namine was created before Kairi got a Keyblade, and Kairir PHYSICALLY recieved hers from Riku not her heart

I don't think that has anything to do with it.
Kairi has the ability to wield a keyblade since she was 4 years old when she accidentally touched Aqua's keyblade.
Kairi didn't get an own keyblade yet, she was not choosen by her own keyblade. The one she received from Riku in KH2 was borrowed, it is not her personal one.

 

[Neptun]

As far as we know Naminé was born from Kairi's heart using Sora's body and soul as an intermediary, there was no mention of Sora's heart being involved in Naminé's birth.
Sora's heart gave birth to Roxas, not to Naminé.

Lol, if that would be true Naminé would be the third being to be able to either use or copy Sora's keyblade.

Secret Ansem's Report 9

I should have expected nothing less from a Keyblade-wielding hero. Sora and friends defied the machinations of Organization XIII and rescued Naminé. Naminé was a witch who controlled the memories of others. Most likely these powers were achieved through a special process when she was born. Naminé is a Nobody, created when a young girl's heart left her body. Yet she has no corresponding Heartless. This is because the "young girl" in this case was a princess. Kairi, a resident of Radiant Garden over which I had ruled, was one of the Seven Princesses that uphold the realm of light. With no darkness in her heart, Kairi produced no Heartless, and instead of vanishing, her body remained in the realm of light. In other words, both the Nobody called Naminé and the Heartless—proof of a lost heart—are extremely unstable beings who lack the bodies needed to produce a Nobody. Therefore, they also lack Kairi's memories. One reason for this maybe that Kairi's heart did not return to the darkness when separated from her body, but rather migrated to another vessel...deep within Sora's heart. That is, Naminé is an alter ego of the Kairi who has directly interfered with Sora's heart. Could this be why Sora and those hearts are connected to him were able to have their memories controlled? She is a "non-being" in the truest sense of the word; having not even become a Nobody and with nowhere left to go, she is but the most fleeting of shadows.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

As so often, this can be read several ways.

The one "interfering" with Sora's heart in this case was Kairi's heart, which indeed gave birth to Naminé.

The notion of Sora's heart not being involved might therefore indeed untrue, but it was still only an indirect influence, just like Ven's heart indirectly influenced Roxas, as Roxas was born from Sora's heart just like Naminé was from Kairi's.

That still gives no clear hint or possibility that Naminé could ever gain access to Sora's keyblade like Roxas could though.