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He might be shocked but quickly forgives them, especially Ienzo since the youngest of the apprentices is like a son to him.Yeah he should be able to return. Since Riku and Mickey are searching for Aqua, stands to reason once they find her they should find Ansem.
I'm curious how he will react once he sees his four apprentices again.
He might be shocked but quickly forgives them, especially Ienzo since the youngest of the apprentices is like a son to him.
In real life, I'd agree. In this series, not so much.I highly doubt he will "quickly" forgive them, even if he has a new perspective on the Nobodies. What Xehanort and the apprentices did to him and to Radiant Garden (as well as thousands of people while in the Organization), they had done willingly. Just because they seem to be helping Sora now doesn't mean he (or anyone else) should forget the things they did.
I fully expect DiZ to forgive the apprentices in a single scene, honestly likely in one of the credit scenes we'll see him finally return to RG and the apprentices will bow and beg for forgiveness and he will forgive, likely with a focus on Ienzo in particular since they seemed to have a father-son thing there. I really doubt there will be much conflict between them in any real sense.
I'm a bit concerned for these characters who think abuse, kidnapping, manipulation, murder, and straight up genocide aren't a big deal as long as you apologize for it.Which honestly, at least in my personal view, is a general flaw and case of bad storytelling which goes through the entire series at this point.
Nearly every transgression and bad action taken by characters, no matter how heinous and how many victims and traumas it produces, gets neither addressed properly nor has consequences for the perpetrator.
Even in the case of the series' "best" (because more outlined and detailed) redemption arc the only crimes of Riku that were actually addressed were those committed against Sora and Kairi personally and a short part about destroying his home world which was brought up by one of the antagonists but quickly dropped again.
There's full forgiveness granted with a finger snap for most things which is not only somewhat boring from a narrative perspective when everyone gets the same treatment regardless of the severity of their actions, but also sends a weird message about that no matter how shitty the things you do, in this universe you will neither face consequences for them (except maybe bested in battle) nor do you ever owe your victims more than a verbal "sorry" and "I've changed".
There are so many different tropes around the concepts of redemption and atonement, including those where the victim can fully rightfully refuse to forgive their tormentor and/or simply state that they never want to see them again, yet the KH series seems to default either to "Easily Forgiven" or a "redemption arc" which has only the first (feeling remorseful) and last (getting forgiven) step present skipping all the steps in-between which should actually be about the character earning a possible forgiveness at the end and is the main point of a full redemption arc.
At first I was somewhat irritated when browsing through the net that there are several parts of the fanabse who are unhappy or even angry with the fact that Kairi is more or less "forced" by the narrative to spent time with Lea, a person who certainly did shitty things to her but who is at least remorseful, but by now I begin to see where those people come from as it is just one example of what this series does more regularly.
I'm a bit concerned for these characters who think abuse, kidnapping, manipulation, murder, and straight up genocide aren't a big deal as long as you apologize for it.
I'm a bit concerned for these characters who think abuse, kidnapping, manipulation, murder, and straight up genocide aren't a big deal as long as you apologize for it.
In real life, I'd agree. In this series, not so much.
Let us not forget how quickly Ienzo forgave Lea for literally murdering him.
I fully expect DiZ to forgive the apprentices in a single scene, honestly likely in one of the credit scenes we'll see him finally return to RG and the apprentices will bow and beg for forgiveness and he will forgive, likely with a focus on Ienzo in particular since they seemed to have a father-son thing there. I really doubt there will be much conflict between them in any real sense.
You know, I think that might actually have been a mistranslation? Searching for it now, I see it mentioned in a quick summary of a then upcoming interview, but then it isn't said in the more detailed summary and in the actual fully translated interview it isn't mentioned at all.Nomura did say that Kingdom Hearts III is going to be dark.
- There are so many characters, so the story is dark and he is not planning it to end it all at once.
- Each character story must be settled. This will involve members from the former Organization XIII.
— With all that quality content being packed into each world, there’s no doubt that KH3 is becoming quite the rich game indeed.
Nomura: With the amount of characters involved this time, the story is also becoming quite rich. Because of the chain of events so far, the number of both friend and foe have multiplied. There’s too many to even have them all assemble together in one place (wry laugh). Additionally, I can’t just let each character speak one line and just be done with.
— Counting the number of Seekers of Darkness and Guardians of Light, just that number is a crazy amount...
Nomura: Yeah, and I have to solve all the problems that each of those characters have been carrying on their backs this whole time (wry laugh). There’s also every member of the old Organization XIII...
Honest question: you guys think there is a slim chance Ansem is Kairi's father?
Honest question: you guys think there is a slim chance Ansem is Kairi's father?
I'll never 100% dismiss the possibility of something, but the chance of it happening is so slim that Sora has a better shot at being her father.Honest question: you guys think there is a slim chance Ansem is Kairi's father?
I'm a bit concerned for these characters who think abuse, kidnapping, manipulation, murder, and straight up genocide aren't a big deal as long as you apologize for it.
It depends on what people find "interesting" to talk about in the first place. Talking about Xehanort in conjunction with Redemption is always going to be a very iffy issue because he is arguably the goal post in this series for "worst evil actions ever perpetrated". In terms of sheer scale and severity so far no one surpasses Xehanort as a repeating offender.Hot take (I haven't given it much thought yet), this could be why I find Xehanort more interesting to talk about. Not excusing him, just more interesting. I could care more about the good guys... if their previous actions meant something and had lasting effects. But with this, mh, inadequacy of portraying redemption, they all kinda feel the same and this feeling only gets stronger with each passing title.
If more things were pointing at Lea being aware of the age and morality discrepancies with the rest of the guys (instead of the exact opposite, the game seemingly rushing to establish he's a-okay to be part of the crew) and him or the others doing something about it, I would definitely be more interested. But as of now? Nice guys being nice to each other. To me this impact the writing more than one could be led to think, since you can't really make meaningful dialogues between these characters unless you go to the big friendship speeches: if there's anything Jiren has proven is that a character needs another separate entity with a different personality in order to work a (potentially) successful verbal interaction. With a different and possibly opposite stance my opportunities to illustrate and expand upon my own ideas increase vastly.
It's like when people debate about Lea meeting Ventus and Roxas, or Roxas meeting Ventus, or Sora meeting Vanitas: I honestly doubt any of these will actually go beyond the one-liner and will be brought up later, for the series never showed it has any intention of doing it this way.
Obviously the still bonafide villains have similar problems (vesselization), but good characters aren't safe either.
Call me tragic, I think KH only worsen the situation. I'm starting to pick up that more people than I would think that grew up with the franchise have developed some questionable opinions on what's right and wrong (inb4 I get this myself from Sephy due to our Xehanort discussions): let alone not seeing why Riku and Lea's redemption arcs aren't perfect and they have holes, there are real Xehanort apologists out there who truly adopt some Nazi-propagandistic speeches to justify his every action: like, I will discuss his theorethical goals any day, but let it be known I do not condone his acts.
And this goes all the way to not being able to tell he was lying while calling Terra a Master.
Obviously there are many more factors and even for fiction this is far from novelty (Griffith did nothing wrong), but KH's overly simplistic way of dealing with deep character issues is making some fans failing to read between the lines.
EDIT: I am totally Off-Topic by now and I apologize. If there's more ground for this discussion I could open a new thread.
Indeed, indeed, full agreement.I mean, there's people like this in real life, too. It's a real cultural problem that victims are sometimes shamed for not accepting the forgiveness of an abuser, and that forgiveness is seen as "being a bigger person" instead of letting the victim choose for themselves what is best for their mental health and safety.
Well, unfortunately, I think you might be right. With the Lea/Ienzo thing, they didn't even mention it so I wouldn't exactly call that "forgiving him", and they're brushing off what he did to Kairi really easily, too. I can easily see them using "We were just following Xehanort/Xemnas" or "We just wanted our hearts back" as an excuse for their actions, even though it doesn't rid them of blame and just points fingers at Xehanort. And I'd argue with that as an excuse because they clearly were invested in Xehanort's schemes and Ienzo knows too much to be an innocent follower. Ienzo had exploited Ansem's trust in him to help Xehanort build the labs under the castle, after all.
Considering all that DiZ had done (especially to Roxas and Namine) in order to get revenge on them, I would hope that they conclude his and the Apprentices story in a better way, although you and others are absolutely right to point out how lazy redemption arcs are in this series. It seems clear to me already that the Apprentices and Lea are pretty much "good guys", despite all they've done or let happen, as long as they aren't on Xehanort's side.
I'm not really expecting DiZ to be important to KH3 anyway, besides the data he left in Sora and his possible return/connection to Aqua, so I'm not expecting much in regards to their potential interactions at all.
tl;dr - the story being darker was likely a mistranslation, and what he actually said was that it was rich.
just to clarify for people who may go into kh3 expecting it to be darker than it might actually end up being.
I'll never 100% dismiss the possibility of something, but the chance of it happening is so slim that Sora has a better shot at being her father.