a question of how

[Smile]

The thing about Axel is that he didn't really seek redemption. That's the main thing setting him apart from Riku who's done pretty horrible things in KH1 too.

 

[Lifes.Lover]

Have to agree with SA, he didn't kill himself just to get Roxas' and Sora's forgiveness, especially if we go with his 'I'm a Nobody and therefore have no feelings' thing. No, he did it in a weird attempt at saving Sora, which in turn saved Roxas, and to run away from his useless and meaningless life.

The whole point, though, is that neither Kairi nor Axel, in their similarities, would accept hanging around with someone just to get to someone else. Do you honestly think that, if Sora had been the one to be used to become whole for Roxas, that she would have taken it lying down? If there's one good quality about Kairi, and, at the same time, one of her worst, it's that she's incredibly stubborn.

She would have tried to find a way to bring Sora out, if that had been the case, and don't be telling her any different. Axel was much the same, hoping that, in kidnapping Kairi, he would be able to draw Sora where he needed, and be able to bring Roxas out.

 

[Smile]

I love how we're so freely comparing Kairi and Axel. then again it's a canon comparison, so.

It really portrays tragically on Namine though. She wanted more than anyone ever to be with Sora, but settled for barely being with his shadow while being hardly a shadow herself.
Meh.

 

[Lifes.Lover]

But, really, they do have a lot in common, when thinking about it. However, Axel is better because he doesn't have a disregard for his other friends besides Roxas.

Well, because she didn't believe she could be anything else.

 

[Smile]

Which is the core of her tragedy :3~
Axel was ironically trying to be closer to being whole by fetching Roxas. Namine went down without a fight ._.

 

[Lifes.Lover]

Which is why Axel is much more like Kairi than he is Naminé.

 

[Heartless Person]

being evil is a way of life not an emotion

 

[Lifes.Lover]

Yes, we know that. In any case, only the OP ever actually called the act of being evil an emotion.

 

[Ikkin]

The times that we see Axel and Demyx make them no less evil than any of the other members. Remember, Demyx, even unwilling to fight as he was, is trained to fight, and did attempt to do harm to Sora.

And Axel... is probably the most 'evil' of them all, because he has no problem in playing whatever side he wants, just to get what he wants. Even if his motives are different, he will attempt anything, even murder, to get whatever he wants.

So, by your logic, every single member of the Organization is evil.

Well, I'm just going by what we saw - Demyx was never actually ordered to kill Sora. The first time Sora fights him, he's under orders to fight Sora to draw Roxas out, and the second time, he's not expecting Sora to be there.

The actual reason for him being at Hollow Bastion is unknown, and it'd probably count towards his evil points, though.

On the other hand, it seems fairly likely that he was forced to join the Organization rather than doing so of his own choosing (or just didn't understand what he was getting himself into), considering how often he doesn't want to be doing the things he's doing. That makes him a bit more ambiguous, in my opinion.

As for Axel, he's a pretty close parallel to Riku, motivation-wise, and we're willing to forgive Riku some pretty nasty things (ie. kidnapping Roxas, putting up with so much of the terrible things that gets done with Roxas, etc.). Even Axel's betrayals are motivated by the same thing (he's not only acting on orders, considering that killing Zexion would probably cause more problems in that case) - and, in any case, there's a fairly large moral difference between killing someone who's a threat to your life (and evil besides) and using an innocent kid for your plans then attempting to kill him when he's no longer of use.

What? And not Demyx's? Remember, he is the same one to use the 'Silence, traitor' line we all know so well. Goes to show he's not all rainbows and sunshine. :E

I'm pretty sure that line was just bravado. It sure sounded like it, anyway. =P

That's mostly what I was talking about when dealing with Axel. Also, he did kidnap Kairi though she had it coming, and was probably glad to get off the islands anyway. Axel did whatever he wanted, gained whatever trust he needed, in order to do what he needed. There's nothing saying that he wouldn't have turned on Xemnas...

Oh, wait, he already did that!

Note that while he does kidnap Kairi, the intent isn't to threaten her so he can force Sora to turn himself back into a Heartless and bring Roxas back. He wouldn't have been apologetic if that was the case - and the novels explain that his real intent was to bring Kairi to Namine in hopes that that would allow him to figure something out. It's not really anything Riku wouldn't have done if he was in Axel's position.

Why would you consider turning on Xemnas to be an evil thing, though? Xemnas wanted him dead at that point. Plus, being a double-agent isn't necessarily evil, either - it depends on the motivations. Sure, you can't be both a nice person and a double-agent, but there's a bit of a difference between "not nice" and "evil." =P

I loved how even at death, he tried to reach for Roxas, with the "he made me feel like I had a Heart... you make me feel the same." Shake both Sora and Roxas up, and make Roxas possibly jealous.
And lo and behold he managed to wake Roxas up, just like Xemnas knew he would.
Wonder what he wanted to have him do though, or if he just wanted to go without regrets, regardless of what he was leaving behind. Would so fit him.

...wait, what? I don't really see anything to suggest that Axel was trying to make Roxas jealous. o_0;

Of course he wanted to wake him up, though - he's dying, and just wants to see Roxas one more time. If he wanted something else from him, he would have said it in Final Mix, where he actually does get to see him.

Have to agree with SA, he didn't kill himself just to get Roxas' and Sora's forgiveness, especially if we go with his 'I'm a Nobody and therefore have no feelings' thing. No, he did it in a weird attempt at saving Sora, which in turn saved Roxas, and to run away from his useless and meaningless life.

Pretty sure that the "My heart wouldn't be in it... haven't got one" thing was just Axel being his usual nonchalant self, though I agree that he's certainly not looking for forgiveness.

He was clearly injured before Sora got there, though, considering that he was able to be brought down by a couple of Dusks (I'm pretty sure it was Saix's fault, but I can't remember if that was from the novels, or just speculation). His intentions probably were a mix of wanting to see Roxas again, wanting to save Sora for Roxas' sake, and wanting Sora to take the rest of the Organization down - I doubt there was any "running away from a useless and meaningless life" there so much as "if I'm dying anyway, I might as well go out with a bang."

The whole point, though, is that neither Kairi nor Axel, in their similarities, would accept hanging around with someone just to get to someone else. Do you honestly think that, if Sora had been the one to be used to become whole for Roxas, that she would have taken it lying down? If there's one good quality about Kairi, and, at the same time, one of her worst, it's that she's incredibly stubborn.

She would have tried to find a way to bring Sora out, if that had been the case, and don't be telling her any different. Axel was much the same, hoping that, in kidnapping Kairi, he would be able to draw Sora where he needed, and be able to bring Roxas out.

I think Kairi, as a Princess of Heart, probably has limits on how far she'd be able to go to get Sora back - she has no darkness, after all. Riku is the better comparison here, really, and the reason why it's so difficult to call Axel evil - if Riku was in Axel's place (and Sora in Roxas'), Riku absolutely would have done the same kind of things (though he'd probably be considerably less subtle about it), and no one would call Riku evil for it.

 

[Lifes.Lover]

*cracks knuckles* This'll be fun to type out.

Well, I'm just going by what we saw - Demyx was never actually ordered to kill Sora. The first time Sora fights him, he's under orders to fight Sora to draw Roxas out, and the second time, he's not expecting Sora to be there.

Demyx was most likely ordered to find any means possible of obtaining Roxas, death or otherwise.

'Use aggression to liberate his true disposition.'

The actual reason for him being at Hollow Bastion is unknown, and it'd probably count towards his evil points, though.

He was probably there for the same reason that Saïx was.

On the other hand, it seems fairly likely that he was forced to join the Organization rather than doing so of his own choosing (or just didn't understand what he was getting himself into), considering how often he doesn't want to be doing the things he's doing. That makes him a bit more ambiguous, in my opinion.

Xemnas is more the type to persuade someone to joining the Organization, and then use force to keep them there. And, there's nothing saying that he doesn't want to do what he does because he's lazy.

As for Axel, he's a pretty close parallel to Riku, motivation-wise, and we're willing to forgive Riku some pretty nasty things (ie. kidnapping Roxas, putting up with so much of the terrible things that gets done with Roxas, etc.). Even Axel's betrayals are motivated by the same thing (he's not only acting on orders, considering that killing Zexion would probably cause more problems in that case) - and, in any case, there's a fairly large moral difference between killing someone who's a threat to your life (and evil besides) and using an innocent kid for your plans then attempting to kill him when he's no longer of use.

I never said that I didn't forgive Axel for the nasty things he did, or Riku for that matter. You misunderstand what I mean. From what you said, all of the members were evil, except for Roxas, Axel, and Demyx. I was showing why Axel and Demyx are evil, too, in keeping with your reasoning. But, according to you, the other members are evil, even though they probably did nothing that the other members, who you deemed weren't evil, wouldn't have done themselves.

I'm pretty sure that line was just bravado. It sure sounded like it, anyway. =P

See now, I would think that, too, if he had backed away in terror like he had when he gave the line 'you shouldn't judge anyone by appearance'. However, when saying 'silence, traitor', you can almost tell he means business, especially considering that immediately afterwards he draws his sitar and fights Sora to the death.

Note that while he does kidnap Kairi, the intent isn't to threaten her so he can force Sora to turn himself back into a Heartless and bring Roxas back. He wouldn't have been apologetic if that was the case - and the novels explain that his real intent was to bring Kairi to Namine in hopes that that would allow him to figure something out. It's not really anything Riku wouldn't have done if he was in Axel's position.

Again, what does Riku have to do with this? Evil is evil, intentions or not. They're forgiven for their motives behind their evil deeds, but that makes the deeds no less evil. Personally, I commend him for kidnapping Kairi. But that's just my biased opinion.

Why would you consider turning on Xemnas to be an evil thing, though? Xemnas wanted him dead at that point. Plus, being a double-agent isn't necessarily evil, either - it depends on the motivations. Sure, you can't be both a nice person and a double-agent, but there's a bit of a difference between "not nice" and "evil." =P

The act of turning traitor is an evil thing. It shows how quickly he is to change his loyalties, considering that he killed a whole slew of people in the name of the Organization, whether they deserved it or not. Whether Xemnas deserved it is an entirely other debate, especially considering that Xemnas was probably the most evil of them all, considering that he was using the fake Kingdom Hearts for more than just getting a new heart.

Pretty sure that the "My heart wouldn't be in it... haven't got one" thing was just Axel being his usual nonchalant self, though I agree that he's certainly not looking for forgiveness.

He was clearly injured before Sora got there, though, considering that he was able to be brought down by a couple of Dusks (I'm pretty sure it was Saix's fault, but I can't remember if that was from the novels, or just speculation). His intentions probably were a mix of wanting to see Roxas again, wanting to save Sora for Roxas' sake, and wanting Sora to take the rest of the Organization down - I doubt there was any "running away from a useless and meaningless life" there so much as "if I'm dying anyway, I might as well go out with a bang."

But that's giving the conjecture that Axel is indeed weak from a previous battle. However, considering that Axel isn't such a strong fighter, why didn't Saïx give him the 'maximum punishment' right then and there, at the same time as taking Kairi? He would have been able to do it easily. Also, his back was turned to the Dusk's which is why they were able to best him in surprise.

I think Kairi, as a Princess of Heart, probably has limits on how far she'd be able to go to get Sora back - she has no darkness, after all. Riku is the better comparison here, really, and the reason why it's so difficult to call Axel evil - if Riku was in Axel's place (and Sora in Roxas'), Riku absolutely would have done the same kind of things (though he'd probably be considerably less subtle about it), and no one would call Riku evil for it.

I never said that Kairi would be able to do it. I just said that she would try, because she is a stubborn person who cares merely for Sora. I call Riku evil for what he did. I'm just able to forgive his actions, much like I do with Axel's, because of his intentions.

 

[Ikkin]

Demyx was most likely ordered to find any means possible of obtaining Roxas, death or otherwise.

'Use aggression to liberate his true disposition.'

I'm pretty sure that Xemnas would have been smart enough to know that killing Sora would be the end of Roxas, too. =P Death causes the soul to leave the body, and a Nobody needs both.

He was probably there for the same reason that Saïx was.

Hence why I said that that'd probably add to the evil points.

Xemnas is more the type to persuade someone to joining the Organization, and then use force to keep them there. And, there's nothing saying that he doesn't want to do what he does because he's lazy.

Xemnas seems like the type, to me, who'd order the destruction of any Nobody who refuses to join his Organization, considering that he ordered the destruction of any defector. =P

And, sure, there's nothing saying that Demyx isn't just lazy, but canon gives more support to the idea that he's scared (or just prefers to ensure his own survival, if you're going to say that being scared is an emotion), and is just more scared of the results of not following orders.

I never said that I didn't forgive Axel for the nasty things he did, or Riku for that matter. You misunderstand what I mean. From what you said, all of the members were evil, except for Roxas, Axel, and Demyx. I was showing why Axel and Demyx are evil, too, in keeping with your reasoning. But, according to you, the other members are evil, even though they probably did nothing that the other members, who you deemed weren't evil, wouldn't have done themselves.

Well, to be fair, I was dealing in possibilities - I'd said that those were the members who were possibly not evil, because we hadn't seen them do anything as bad as the others. They probably would have, but as far as we know, they didn't.

See now, I would think that, too, if he had backed away in terror like he had when he gave the line 'you shouldn't judge anyone by appearance'. However, when saying 'silence, traitor', you can almost tell he means business, especially considering that immediately afterwards he draws his sitar and fights Sora to the death.

Well, at that point, he didn't really have any chance left - Sora and Donald had both called him out as a Nobody, and were convinced that he was just trying to trick them. His actions aren't inconsistent with pure self-preservation (which is why some people like to say that Sora's in the wrong there, though I think they go a bit too far).

Again, what does Riku have to do with this? Evil is evil, intentions or not. They're forgiven for their motives behind their evil deeds, but that makes the deeds no less evil. Personally, I commend him for kidnapping Kairi. But that's just my biased opinion.

...well, Riku was brought in because I figured that most people considered him not to be evil. XD;

I don't think that evil can be determined purely by deeds, though. Case in point:
- Person A has no money or health coverage. She breaks into a pharmacy in the middle of the night and steals some medicine that she needs for her child, who will die without it.
- Person B breaks into the same pharmacy in the middle of the night and steals the same medicine to sell on the black market.

The deed is the same in both cases - the person broke into the pharmacy and stole medicine. But, I'm not sure you'd really want to call what Person A did evil. The value of the end state has to factor in somewhere.

Plus, the question is whether the character is evil, not whether they did evil things, and that definitely depends on why they did what they did. After all, even Sora's killed people, and most people still consider him good.

The act of turning traitor is an evil thing. It shows how quickly he is to change his loyalties, considering that he killed a whole slew of people in the name of the Organization, whether they deserved it or not. Whether Xemnas deserved it is an entirely other debate, especially considering that Xemnas was probably the most evil of them all, considering that he was using the fake Kingdom Hearts for more than just getting a new heart.

Would you call an undercover officer who pretends to be a drug dealer to bust a drug ring evil? Intentions are important, once again.

Plus, Axel never really changes his actual loyalty, just his apparent loyalty. He was never loyal to anyone but himself and Roxas, from the beginning. Plus, it's quite likely that, in Axel's case, he never killed anyone who wasn't an Organization member - Org XIII probably didn't start spreading Heartless until Sora was there to take advantage of, if what we've seen of 358/2 Days is any indication - and every single Organization member that he killed (or whose death he plotted) not only deserved it, but was a legitimate threat to either Roxas or Axel himself.

But that's giving the conjecture that Axel is indeed weak from a previous battle. However, considering that Axel isn't such a strong fighter, why didn't Saïx give him the 'maximum punishment' right then and there, at the same time as taking Kairi? He would have been able to do it easily. Also, his back was turned to the Dusk's which is why they were able to best him in surprise.

Probably because Axel ran. =P Kairi, of course, would probably try to run if the two Nobodies were fighting, and Axel could have used the distraction to get the heck out of there.

Plus, it's not exactly difficult for a Nobody to escape even if they're in a critical condition, considering the portals; if Saix decided that he wanted to draw his punishment out, Axel could probably get away.

As for whether or not he only got taken down by the Dusks because they surprised him, that's not really what's suspicious. The thing is, he stayed down until Sora cut them off of him, when he should have been able to do something. Plus, he spends half of his fight as an ally in the classic "low HP" pose with only quick bursts of action; he's certainly animated to look like he's already spent.

I never said that Kairi would be able to do it. I just said that she would try, because she is a stubborn person who cares merely for Sora. I call Riku evil for what he did. I'm just able to forgive his actions, much like I do with Axel's, because of his intentions.

Ah, okay. You're probably right that she'd try (though I do think she cares for Riku too, or else she would have let him leave when Sora didn't know who he was =P ).

I guess it's just a question of semantics, really. You say they're both evil but forgivable because of their intentions, while I say they're both dark but not quite evil because of their intentions.

...the real question then is, do you at least agree that most of the other members are both evil and not as forgivable based on their known intentions?

 

[Weeaboo]

This thread is getting too theoretical.

 

[Lifes.Lover]

I'm pretty sure that Xemnas would have been smart enough to know that killing Sora would be the end of Roxas, too. =P Death causes the soul to leave the body, and a Nobody needs both.

Except, in the end, if Roxas died, it would take care of their traitor problem. Also, even though Xemnas says that he needs the keyblade to release hearts and take them up to the fake Kingdom Hearts, it's been shown that any weapon will release hearts and send them up to the fake Kingdom Hearts. This means that Xemnas had no reason to care about whether Sora or Roxas died.

When thinking about this, it's all too easy to see Demyx given an order to obtain his objective through whatever means. Kinda like that missive 'Bring them back, dead or alive' that pops up in movies, except that Demyx wouldn't be bringing them back.

Hence why I said that that'd probably add to the evil points.

Glad to know we agree on this.

Xemnas seems like the type, to me, who'd order the destruction of any Nobody who refuses to join his Organization, considering that he ordered the destruction of any defector. =P

Except, really, there's no way to tell. Xemnas had twelve other members in his organization, but that doesn't mean that there weren't other Nobodies out there, wandering around in space. Also, he did nothing to try to include Naminé, who had powers over Sora, and she's a Nobody. In terms of weakness, she's probably not that far off Demyx.

And, sure, there's nothing saying that Demyx isn't just lazy, but canon gives more support to the idea that he's scared (or just prefers to ensure his own survival, if you're going to say that being scared is an emotion), and is just more scared of the results of not following orders.

Of course, there's also nothing saying that Demyx wasn't just faking everything that came out of his mouth in a bid to catch Sora off guard. It's my belief that not everything we see of Demyx is actually truthful of the real Demyx. Sure, he might be more fun, but that doesn't mean that he's incapable of being extremely cruel, just like the rest of the Organization.

Well, to be fair, I was dealing in possibilities - I'd said that those were the members who were possibly not evil, because we hadn't seen them do anything as bad as the others. They probably would have, but as far as we know, they didn't.

The strange thing, though, is that you don't consider these members to be evil, because you've never seen them attempt to do the same things that the others did. That doesn't mean that they didn't. They would have been ordered to do evil things by Xemnas, and, obviously, they didn't turn traitor until much later. That shows to me that any deeds they did, justified or not, they didn't worry over or care about.

Well, at that point, he didn't really have any chance left - Sora and Donald had both called him out as a Nobody, and were convinced that he was just trying to trick them. His actions aren't inconsistent with pure self-preservation (which is why some people like to say that Sora's in the wrong there, though I think they go a bit too far).

If he was truly one for self-preservation, he would have done what he did in Olympus Coliseum, and turn tail and run. Or he would have made one of eensy-winsy little portals that you mention with Axel, and run. But he stayed, and fought, because of a mission, maybe. Because he really isn't all goody-goody sunshine, quite probably.

...well, Riku was brought in because I figured that most people considered him not to be evil. XD;

You haven't met me yet. Hi, I'm Lifes.Lover, and I think what Riku did was evil, but I forgive him because he realizes his mistakes, turns good, and he did it for a pretty stupid, spoiled, brattish reason, but a non-evil reason, at least.

I don't think that evil can be determined purely by deeds, though. Case in point:
- Person A has no money or health coverage. She breaks into a pharmacy in the middle of the night and steals some medicine that she needs for her child, who will die without it.
- Person B breaks into the same pharmacy in the middle of the night and steals the same medicine to sell on the black market.

The deed is the same in both cases - the person broke into the pharmacy and stole medicine. But, I'm not sure you'd really want to call what Person A did evil. The value of the end state has to factor in somewhere.

The deed is evil. Person A did it for the right intentions, whereas Person B did not, but, in the end, the actions are the same. She stole something that, in the end, might not make much of a matter to the pharmacy, but, depending on what that medicine is, it could probably have been very expensive. And because that medicine was stolen, it can't be sold to someone just as deserving, who worked hard to afford the money to spend it on that medicine for their child. There's more than one side to every story.

Plus, the question is whether the character is evil, not whether they did evil things, and that definitely depends on why they did what they did. After all, even Sora's killed people, and most people still consider him good.

No, the question, to be technical, was whether or not we felt the Organization to be evil, due to evil being a state of emotion, which they clearly couldn't feel. Do you honestly think, after hearing what I've said before, that I don't consider some of what Sora did as just as evil? Especially where the Organization is concerned?

I consider him good because of why he does it. I consider him tempestous and hasty because of what he did.

Would you call an undercover officer who pretends to be a drug dealer to bust a drug ring evil? Intentions are important, once again.

Plus, Axel never really changes his actual loyalty, just his apparent loyalty. He was never loyal to anyone but himself and Roxas, from the beginning. Plus, it's quite likely that, in Axel's case, he never killed anyone who wasn't an Organization member - Org XIII probably didn't start spreading Heartless until Sora was there to take advantage of, if what we've seen of 358/2 Days is any indication - and every single Organization member that he killed (or whose death he plotted) not only deserved it, but was a legitimate threat to either Roxas or Axel himself.

No, but the situations are not one and the same. Xemnas didn't do it for the good of the people, like the undercover officer. Xemnas didn't order Axel to do it to save Sora. He did it to get rid of the traitors, and nothing more. Axel didn't do it because he wanted to save Sora. He did it because it was an order.

You are right, though. Axel's true loyalty is merely to himself. I don't even consider Roxas to be near that true loyalty, because he does turn on Roxas because he believes that Roxas doesn't care for him anymore. In the end, though, he still 'cares' about Roxas, but that doesn't mean that, for an infinitestimal amount of time, he didn't turn on Roxas in much the same way that he turned on the Organization.

Probably because Axel ran. =P Kairi, of course, would probably try to run if the two Nobodies were fighting, and Axel could have used the distraction to get the heck out of there.

Plus, it's not exactly difficult for a Nobody to escape even if they're in a critical condition, considering the portals; if Saix decided that he wanted to draw his punishment out, Axel could probably get away.

As for whether or not he only got taken down by the Dusks because they surprised him, that's not really what's suspicious. The thing is, he stayed down until Sora cut them off of him, when he should have been able to do something. Plus, he spends half of his fight as an ally in the classic "low HP" pose with only quick bursts of action; he's certainly animated to look like he's already spent.

Oh, yes, Kairi ran, which means that Saïx chased after her, and not Axel, who was the traitor. Saïx knew very well that having Kairi didn't matter. Also, Kairi was taken before the events in Hollow Bastion, where Axel was seen, healthy and whole. LOL, no pun intended. He even begins to tell Sora about her, but doesn't get the chance. So, if he was injured before the fight with Sora, and I agree with you that he wasn't at par, then who was it, and why did they do it? If it was Saïx, then there was no Kairi to get in the way of him recieving the maximum punishment.

Ah, okay. You're probably right that she'd try (though I do think she cares for Riku too, or else she would have let him leave when Sora didn't know who he was =P ).

That's really all that I was saying. Yeah, no, she doesn't show any care for Riku. I can't believe that she was given the right of telling Sora about Riku. She's dismissive of Riku at any time during every game, until the very end, where it doesn't matter. Of course, Riku was just as dismissive of her before he became embroiled in a supposed 'competition' with Sora over who cared for her more.

I guess it's just a question of semantics, really. You say they're both evil but forgivable because of their intentions, while I say they're both dark but not quite evil because of their intentions.

Agree to disagree?

...the real question then is, do you at least agree that most of the other members are both evil and not as forgivable based on their known intentions?

Not necessarily. Again, their actions are evil, but their intentions, at the least, were for the same thing that both Axel and Demyx sought after. What we're shown of them is more evil, but there is nothing to say that Axel and Demyx weren't just as evil, or didn't do the same things at some point in time. So, all in all, they're all evil, but their intentions garner them sympathy.

 

[Ikkin]

Except, in the end, if Roxas died, it would take care of their traitor problem. Also, even though Xemnas says that he needs the keyblade to release hearts and take them up to the fake Kingdom Hearts, it's been shown that any weapon will release hearts and send them up to the fake Kingdom Hearts. This means that Xemnas had no reason to care about whether Sora or Roxas died.

When thinking about this, it's all too easy to see Demyx given an order to obtain his objective through whatever means. Kinda like that missive 'Bring them back, dead or alive' that pops up in movies, except that Demyx wouldn't be bringing them back.

There was still no implication that that was what the orders were. Demyx left the first time, without turning it into a battle to the death, which wouldn't have been the case if the orders were "bring him back, dead or alive."

Demyx is clearly afraid not to follow orders, and leaving would have been defying orders if the order was "bring him back dead or alive," but not if it was "try to wake Roxas up."

Xemnas also clearly doesn't want Sora dead, because Saix has to ask him if he can kill Sora at the end. "Might"s don't really matter when canon is pretty clear. =P

Except, really, there's no way to tell. Xemnas had twelve other members in his organization, but that doesn't mean that there weren't other Nobodies out there, wandering around in space. Also, he did nothing to try to include Naminé, who had powers over Sora, and she's a Nobody. In terms of weakness, she's probably not that far off Demyx.

It didn't matter if Namine was in the Organization, since they were using her anyway - and they certainly coerced her into doing what they wanted.

Plus, considering how much Axel seemed to dislike every Org member who wasn't Roxas, does it really seem likely that he'd have joined without some measure of coercion?

Of course, there's also nothing saying that Demyx wasn't just faking everything that came out of his mouth in a bid to catch Sora off guard. It's my belief that not everything we see of Demyx is actually truthful of the real Demyx. Sure, he might be more fun, but that doesn't mean that he's incapable of being extremely cruel, just like the rest of the Organization.

Nothing except Occam's Razor. Demyx is clearly supposed to be more sympathetic than, say, Xaldin, so it's just so much simpler to take him at face value.

Plus, cruelty is never a trait of the Punchclock Villain. He does bad things, sure, but he doesn't seem to be the type to like it. (Which, really, is why I tend to consider him on a different level from most of the rest)

The strange thing, though, is that you don't consider these members to be evil, because you've never seen them attempt to do the same things that the others did. That doesn't mean that they didn't. They would have been ordered to do evil things by Xemnas, and, obviously, they didn't turn traitor until much later. That shows to me that any deeds they did, justified or not, they didn't worry over or care about.

I suppose I shouldn't have said they weren't evil, just that they weren't on the same level. I tend to consider "evil" too harsh a word for a character who does bad things that are proportional to their intentions, and both Axel and Demyx have additional factors that allow them to get away with more (coercion in both cases, and Roxas in Axel's).

I do think that 358/2 Days is going to make it seem like the Organization did more fighting Heartless and less spreading Heartless before they had Sora to fight Heartless for them, though. =P

If he was truly one for self-preservation, he would have done what he did in Olympus Coliseum, and turn tail and run. Or he would have made one of eensy-winsy little portals that you mention with Axel, and run. But he stayed, and fought, because of a mission, maybe. Because he really isn't all goody-goody sunshine, quite probably.

Except that he's probably more scared of Xemnas than of Sora. =P He looked like he wanted to run, then thought better of it, after all.

You haven't met me yet. Hi, I'm Lifes.Lover, and I think what Riku did was evil, but I forgive him because he realizes his mistakes, turns good, and he did it for a pretty stupid, spoiled, brattish reason, but a non-evil reason, at least.

...wait, we're both talking about KHII Riku, right? KH Riku was evil-but-forgivable, I agree. KHII Riku's reasons aren't really spoiled and bratty, just desperate. He still does some pretty questionable things, though, which is what's at issue.

The deed is evil. Person A did it for the right intentions, whereas Person B did not, but, in the end, the actions are the same. She stole something that, in the end, might not make much of a matter to the pharmacy, but, depending on what that medicine is, it could probably have been very expensive. And because that medicine was stolen, it can't be sold to someone just as deserving, who worked hard to afford the money to spend it on that medicine for their child. There's more than one side to every story.

But is the person evil? That's the question.

No, the question, to be technical, was whether or not we felt the Organization to be evil, due to evil being a state of emotion, which they clearly couldn't feel. Do you honestly think, after hearing what I've said before, that I don't consider some of what Sora did as just as evil? Especially where the Organization is concerned?

I consider him good because of why he does it. I consider him tempestous and hasty because of what he did.

Well, the last part is the important part - you consider Sora good despite "evil" actions, so you clearly consider intentions to matter when it comes to the morality of the character.

No, but the situations are not one and the same. Xemnas didn't do it for the good of the people, like the undercover officer. Xemnas didn't order Axel to do it to save Sora. He did it to get rid of the traitors, and nothing more. Axel didn't do it because he wanted to save Sora. He did it because it was an order.

I was talking about Axel as the undercover officer, not Xemnas. =P And Axel did do it because he wanted to save Sora/Roxas, at least partially; he kills Vexen partially because Vexen was threatening to tell Sora about Roxas and he has Zexion killed because Sora and Riku are "more interesting" even though that was against his orders.

Sure, he was under orders, but it's not like he wouldn't have done it anyway. =P

You are right, though. Axel's true loyalty is merely to himself. I don't even consider Roxas to be near that true loyalty, because he does turn on Roxas because he believes that Roxas doesn't care for him anymore. In the end, though, he still 'cares' about Roxas, but that doesn't mean that, for an infinitestimal amount of time, he didn't turn on Roxas in much the same way that he turned on the Organization.

I dunno, it's kind of odd. He's certainly willing to become a traitor for Roxas' sake considering his "clean up" of Castle Oblivion, but then he goes berserk on Twilight Town Roxas when it becomes clear that he's not the same person anymore.

On the other hand, some things that Axel said suggest that he did consider his loyalty to the real Roxas to be above his concern for himself - he tells the personality-swapped Roxas, "but I'm not getting turned into a Dusk for..." but then changes his tone completely when he thinks that Roxas has started remembering again. He's not getting turned into a Dusk for someone he doesn't know, but if Roxas does remember...

Oh, yes, Kairi ran, which means that Saïx chased after her, and not Axel, who was the traitor. Saïx knew very well that having Kairi didn't matter. Also, Kairi was taken before the events in Hollow Bastion, where Axel was seen, healthy and whole. LOL, no pun intended. He even begins to tell Sora about her, but doesn't get the chance. So, if he was injured before the fight with Sora, and I agree with you that he wasn't at par, then who was it, and why did they do it? If it was Saïx, then there was no Kairi to get in the way of him recieving the maximum punishment.

Well, it's pretty clear that Saix did consider catching Kairi to be worth more than taking down Axel then and there, probably because he knew he could deal with him later.

It does seem likely that Axel's injury was sustained when he didn't have Kairi, though, for the reasons stated. In which case, Axel probably escaped in a way similar to the way Saix escaped Riku when he had him up against a wall. As long as Saix didn't kill him immediately, it wouldn't be difficult for an injured Axel to create a portal behind or beneath himself and let gravity do the rest.

That's really all that I was saying. Yeah, no, she doesn't show any care for Riku. I can't believe that she was given the right of telling Sora about Riku. She's dismissive of Riku at any time during every game, until the very end, where it doesn't matter. Of course, Riku was just as dismissive of her before he became embroiled in a supposed 'competition' with Sora over who cared for her more.

I doubt the intention is for her to be dismissive of Riku, really. Riku's the one who can, supposedly, take care of himself, while Sora's the one who always needs his friends ("he's hopeless without us"). Plus, everyone randomly forgot Sora for a year - of course she'd be more worried about Sora. We just don't get to see her worry about Riku, 'cause Sora's the main character and her screen time had to revolve around him. =P

Agree to disagree?

In this case. ^_^

Not necessarily. Again, their actions are evil, but their intentions, at the least, were for the same thing that both Axel and Demyx sought after. What we're shown of them is more evil, but there is nothing to say that Axel and Demyx weren't just as evil, or didn't do the same things at some point in time. So, all in all, they're all evil, but their intentions garner them sympathy.

No, they're not, in most cases. As I said before, Axel's intentions include helping Roxas even at his own expense, and both Axel and Demyx don't appear to particularly like being part of the Organization. On the other hand, a good portion of the other members are clearly sadistic (particularly Larxene and Saix) and don't have much of a problem with their orders at all, regardless of what they are. That's got to count for something. =P

 

[Zesty]

Here is a question:
If it is true that nobodies have no form of emotion or feeling, is it fair to say their plans were evil, considering evil is a feeling and personality?

They actually said they just wanted hearts. It depends on how you look at it. Ordering the Heartless to turn people is bad, but alot of the heartless were not under their control and then there are the man-made Heartless, who steal hearts so killing them is saving people.