a question of how

[Bellaisima358]

Well, I think they just wanted to be something, and would stop at nothing to get that, making them seem evil.

 

[Z.e.X.i.O.n]

You can't call it evil.
They just wanted to become Somebodies once more.

 

[Smile]

Evil is subjective. Them having a reason doesn't mean a whole lot to the people they hurt.

 

[Key of End]

like everyone is saying everyone deserves to be somone if they r no one at the time

 

[Firo]

Roxas had half of Sora's heart and Lifes Lovers, frustration can be a state mind of as well as an emotion.

 

[ruon]

are we just going to say that org 13 werent evil for the next 9 pgs or are we going to close this thread

 

[Firo]

To some it up certain aspects of there plan was evil but not there intentions. Xemnas was bad just because he was insane.

 

[Smile]

Roxas had half of Sora's heart and Lifes Lovers, frustration can be a state mind of as well as an emotion.

If you want to get physical, every single "emotion" out there is a "state of mind" created by chemical reactions in your body.
That's hardly the case in KH. The Heart becomes frustrated; the Nobody remembers frustration.

are we just going to say that org 13 werent evil for the next 9 pgs or are we going to close this thread

We're going to say the Org weren't evil for more pages with people like me occasionally jumping in and say that they were evil, depending on whose point of view you're looking at and just because they wanted their Hearts back, boo hoo hoo, doesn't make them any less a pack of bastards.

To some it up certain aspects of there plan was evil but not there intentions. Xemnas was bad just because he was insane.

He seemed pretty lucid to me. Now, his Heartless, on the other hand...

 

[Ikkin]

2) don't go there with Namine. Remember, she's much more Sora based than Kairi based.

Namine is "based on" the strength of Kairi's heart along with Sora's body and soul. Roxas actually has Sora's body and soul, so I'd say Namine is at least as much Kairi-based as Sora-based. In any case, the important thing here is the heart, so Kairi would be the point of interest.

(That said, there's nothing at all said about what happens when Nobodies have Others who are still around, so that's all speculation)


Back to the real issue at hand, saying "Organization XIII is evil/not-evil" doesn't seem the right way to go in this particular circumstance. They're each separate people, after all. So, here's a list, judging evilness by actions with proportion to intentions:

- Xemnas is clearly evil, because he intended to use Kingdom Hearts to become more powerful, and was willing to harm others to do that.
- Xigbar is evil, because he was willing to kill Sora because he was no longer of use to the plan. Murdering teenagers takes more to justify than a desire for a heart.
- Xaldin is evil, because he was attempting to turn Beast into a Heartless so he could harvest his Nobody. Taking from someone else the very thing you want to gain yourself, especially when it won't directly get you what you want, is wrong.
- Vexen is evil, because what he had done to the Riku Replica was wrong. Also, creating hearts seems to be very questionable in and of itself.
- Lexaeus is evil, because he tried to corrupt Riku to use as a puppet.
- Zexion is evil, because he wanted to corrupt Riku, then tried to kill him by posing as his best friend and attacking him when he was no longer of use.
- Saix is evil, for the same reason as Xigbar, along with a clear sadistic bent. A character who reacts to the hero prostrating himself to beg for the girl he'd kidnapped in the way Saix did can't be anything but evil.
- Axel is... Axel. He's got very different motivations from the rest of the Organization, and is actually a lot like Riku, so he gets off a bit easier.
- Demyx is... Demyx. He gives off such a strong impression of not wanting to be doing what he's doing that it's hard to see him as evil.
- Luxord is evil, because he set Heartless on Port Royal and tried to kill Sora - after trapping his friends.
- Marluxia is evil, because he threatened a captive girl so she would brainwash a 14-year-old into being his slave, just so he could gain power.
- Larxene is evil, because she's an utter sadist who amuses herself by tormenting those weaker than herself while going along with Marluxia's plan. Plus, she hits Namine, which is an instant mark for the evil side.
- Roxas is... Roxas. We don't really know enough about him during his time with the Organization to tell whether what he did was justifiable or not.

Basically, we have three possibly-not-evil characters, but that requires that none of them actually did some of the kind of stuff we saw other Organization members doing.

On all of the others' parts, however, we've seen them do things which are nowhere near in proportion to their goal - and that's the main thing that determines whether a character is good or bad. Riku can be an ambiguously-good guy despite doing some questionable things (ie. working with DiZ) because what he did was in proportion to his goal. The actions of the majority of the Organization, however, were not at all in proportion, and can therefore be classified as evil even if the intention itself, in most cases, wasn't bad.

 

[Lifes.Lover]

The times that we see Axel and Demyx make them no less evil than any of the other members. Remember, Demyx, even unwilling to fight as he was, is trained to fight, and did attempt to do harm to Sora.

And Axel... is probably the most 'evil' of them all, because he has no problem in playing whatever side he wants, just to get what he wants. Even if his motives are different, he will attempt anything, even murder, to get whatever he wants.

So, by your logic, every single member of the Organization is evil.

 

[Weeaboo]

The times that we see Axel and Demyx make them no less evil than any of the other members. Remember, Demyx, even unwilling to fight as he was, is trained to fight, and did attempt to do harm to Sora.

And Axel... is probably the most 'evil' of them all, because he has no problem in playing whatever side he wants, just to get what he wants. Even if his motives are different, he will attempt anything, even murder, to get whatever he wants.

So, by your logic, every single member of the Organization is evil.

I'd have to agree with you on Axel's part.

Remember in COM when he played on Marluxia's side to just get to Sora? He even betrayed Marluxia in a way that he could stop him from taking over the organization. But I guess Xemnas told him to do that. For all we know, he would have taken over the organization if he hadn't saved Sora.

 

[Lifes.Lover]

I'd have to agree with you on Axel's part.

Remember in COM when he played on Marluxia's side to just get to Sora? He even betrayed Marluxia in a way that he could stop him from taking over the organization. But I guess Xemnas told him to do that. For all we know, he would have taken over the organization if he hadn't saved Sora.

What? And not Demyx's? Remember, he is the same one to use the 'Silence, traitor' line we all know so well. Goes to show he's not all rainbows and sunshine. :E

That's mostly what I was talking about when dealing with Axel. Also, he did kidnap Kairi though she had it coming, and was probably glad to get off the islands anyway. Axel did whatever he wanted, gained whatever trust he needed, in order to do what he needed. There's nothing saying that he wouldn't have turned on Xemnas...

Oh, wait, he already did that!

 

[Smile]

I loved how even at death, he tried to reach for Roxas, with the "he made me feel like I had a Heart... you make me feel the same." Shake both Sora and Roxas up, and make Roxas possibly jealous.
And lo and behold he managed to wake Roxas up, just like Xemnas knew he would.
Wonder what he wanted to have him do though, or if he just wanted to go without regrets, regardless of what he was leaving behind. Would so fit him.

 

[Lifes.Lover]

Makes Axel sound kind of petty, doesn't it?

 

[Smile]

He is petty. Comes along with being the selfish bastard we all know and potentially love.
Can't really blame him though. He all but failed his mission and now he was dying.

 

[Lifes.Lover]

Plus, he was a traitor. No way to go but death, I suppose, considering there wasn't much else for him.

 

[Smile]

Iono. Had he managed to live until Sora and Riku would've taken Xemnas down, he'd have been home free.

 

[Lifes.Lover]

Home free for what?

To stick to Sora to be near Roxas like Naminé sticks to Kairi to be near Sora?

To never be able to regain a heart?

He did what he did for a good cause, at the same time as fleeing from being nothing.

 

[Smile]

Axel didn't really lie when he said him and Kairi had a lot in common you know; he would have stayed there even if he wasn't welcome.
And he always could've worked to get Roxas back; it's not unthinkable.

 

[Weeaboo]

What? And not Demyx's? Remember, he is the same one to use the 'Silence, traitor' line we all know so well. Goes to show he's not all rainbows and sunshine. :E

That's mostly what I was talking about when dealing with Axel. Also, he did kidnap Kairi though she had it coming, and was probably glad to get off the islands anyway. Axel did whatever he wanted, gained whatever trust he needed, in order to do what he needed. There's nothing saying that he wouldn't have turned on Xemnas...

Oh, wait, he already did that!

Gah, I agree about Demyx as well. I even forgot he said that line. Sorry!

But yes, Axel deserved to die the way he did. He had done so many traitorous acts that it was inevitable anyway.