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13 vessels of darkness



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Sephiroth0812

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I know it's Crazy but.... What about Xion? I mean she is a replica Made by org 13 and, honestly, she had a Not so Big impact on the KH plot. Maybe she will be one of them. I don't know, but i would like To.

That would only be possible with using Time Travel as Xion right now is only a heart (which on top is also forgotten by everyone) that sleeps inside Sora. Her puppet body was destroyed at the end of 358/2 Days so there's no vessel available and that's what Xehanort needs and wants.
Furthermore, as far as we know Xion never had a Xehanort seed, so Xehanort would not be able to control her.

I just thought about all of this last night! And I was thinking about Riku in a black coat seen in Monstrous too. I don't know if mastet Xehanort is one or not. He could've just been brought there by time traveling or something. It just wouldn't make sense! MX was supposed to be gone. He transferred his heart into Terra. And that's true. He said Terra belonged to him. So he has to be in there. I just mentioned something like this on my last post! It's funny. But I don't want to write it again. And my tablet doesn't allow me to paste things on here. And if it does, then I haven't figured it out yet. All in good time I guess. Vanitas would be perfect. But I don't know how he'd get him. When Ven destroyed himself, didn't he and Vanitas's heart merge? And if so... Would that mean that Vanitas' is in SORA!? That can't be good. I think Ansem the wise said something to make me think about th one more. He talks about 4 people in Sora's heart. I'm talking about the scene of him and Riku in 3D.
I also don't think Xehanort chose the scientists in radiant garden. They have a different role in 3.

He is the true and most future Master Xehanort, that has been confirmed both in-game in DDD, the DDD Ultimania as well as the Memorial Ultimania.
Xehanort is only concerned about the bodies which he can control and have as his vessels, so when he infers that Terra still "belongs to him" it can mean the body alone, as just Terra's heart alone cannot really be one of the GoL unless it gets somehow a new body to inhabit.
Vanitas is indeed a highly possible candidate, not only has he the golden Xehanort eyes, he also has a heart of pure darkness as well and was a servant for Xehanort for four entire years.
Vanitas' current status is unknown, all Nomura confirmed was that currently he doesn't have a physical form. Where exactly his heart is is also a mystery. During the final battle in BBS, Ventus engaged in the entire final battle because he did not want to merge with Vanitas, he fought not only to destroy the X-blade but Vanitas himself as well as he even plainly states before the fight. What happened to Vanitas' heart and consciousness after he was defeated has thus not been cleared up so it could be anywhere.
Ansem the Wise in DDD also speaks of "three young people", meaning Xion, Roxas and Ventus. I don't recall him ever mentioning four.
Dilan and Even are said to be still "unstable" by Aeleus, so they might still be possible candidates. Dilan even more so since Xaldin had the pointed ears.
I agree with the notion that Aeleus and Ienzo are most likely headed for a different role though, possibly even as new sidekicks for Lea until Xion and Roxas are restored.

Neither actually. All of that just makes me sigh in sadness at this series horrible handling of information. It is things like this that make me quit caring about the story at all. :frown:

I know it got sidetracked into it but I am more focused on his heart than body. Since the heart is the more important part and people can't return without it no matter where their body is right?
You pointing out Xemnas could have taken ownership of the body because he is partly Terra as well only makes Terra being in Riku seem more possible to me.
I also saw in one of the older threads, I think it was you, that it was mentioned Roxas, Xion and Namine also do not have bodies.
If that is the case wouldn't it be easier to just save Terra the same way they will those three?

You sure? I do not want to derail anybodies thread. :frown:

Despite my fondness for the story of KH as a whole and my like for most of the characters, if there is one complaint besides the sloppy writing I can get 100% behind it is the atrocious handling of the presentation of important information regarding the mysteries of the story.
Kojima's Metal Gear franchise also has a very complex and interwoven story but since I didn't play the series I can't say if Kojima handled it any better than Nomura does with KH.
Nomura and Hideo Kojima are good friends in real life and Nomura also got advice from Sakaguchi (who Nomura reveres as a sort of mentor figure) to make KH more complex in order be able "to compete", so these may actually explain why the KH story is made this way.

It is true that the heart is the most important part of a person (it's also the only part that is essentially immortal due to memories being immortal, it can cease to function if damaged too heavily, but never completely erased.), but in order to truly "return" to the physical "living" world a heart needs both a container (body) and a source of lifeforce/fuel (soul) to operate that container. Furthermore, to Xehanort,the body is right now the more important part for his purposes and that's why his statements go towards the bodies.
Just before Sora falls into a coma Young Xehanort says that his heart will sleep inside the Darkness forever, while his body becomes a new vessel for the true Org, showing that the Xehanorts dismiss the hearts and only focuse on the bodies which they need.
This "Xemnas" would be the Xehanort-seed that controls the body, yes, and it would allow Master Xehanort to return to his own body without actually losing the body (Terra's) he was working so hard to acquire in BBS.
The whereabouts of Terra's own heart is then where it gets tricky as it being inside Riku, still inside his own body (the recompletion process that put Xehanort's heart back to its true body should have done the same for Terra after Ansem and Xemnas were defeated), somewhere in the Realm of Darkness or even somehow making its way to the Lingering Will are all viable possibilities.
Then one has to keep in mind that Eraqus' heart is in the mess as well, opening more possible cans of worms.

Yes, Roxas, Xion and Naminé do not have their own bodies because they are new existences derived/spawned from other already existing ones.
It's one of the main problems that comes with these three as for them to "return" as true own individuals there would be the need to somehow prepare/create true functioning bodies for their hearts to inhabit.
We do not know how this will play out though, the only information we have regarding this since Birth by Sleep is that Ansem the Wise's data is somehow the key to achieve it and that Sora is apparently the only one who can do it.
One possible solution might be actual true cloning, for example creating two clones from Kairi's DNA to provide bodies for Xion and Naminé while creating one from Sora's to provide a vessel for Roxas. Another could be that their hearts get awakened and released, then Kairi gives them a MPoHh (magical Princess of Heart-hug) to give them a true human form like she did for Sora in KH 1.
In Terra's case however, there already exists a body that his heart belongs to, just like Aqua and Ven have too.
If it would be easier to plant Terra's heart into a new body somehow and leave his old to "Xemnas" the Xehanort-seed is right now an unanswerable question as we do not know how it will work, but it would certainly be a possibility to keep in mind which could also serve to have Terra fight on the right side alongside his friends and allies and not forcefully against them.
Heck, it is even possible that his heart might be planted into the Lingering Will temporarily until they can truly win back his own body.
Knowing Nomura, this might even lead to Terra somehow addressing the "Terra"-part of "Xemnas" and with Sora's help trigger something in "Xemnas" to truly wanting to become his own person, leading to some of Xehanort's own seeds rebelling against him as they can eventually develop into their own individuals, again displaying Xehanort's main weakness of underestimating the true power of the heart.

As far as I can see yes, as Terra's role does have big ties to the 13 Seekers of Darkness either way.
In terms of who the six unknown ones are there can not be done much else than to list possible candidates and exchange pro and contra arguments as to how and why they could be one of the thirteen anyways.
What we have done here concerning Terra could be done in the same vein for Vanitas, Riku Replica, time-travelled evil KH 1 Riku and any other possible seeker candidate. ;)
 

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Sephiroth0812 said:
Then one has to keep in mind that Eraqus' heart is in the mess as well, opening more possible cans of worms.
Wouldn't Eraqus just stay with Terra or go back to his own body?

maybe xion is one of the 13 and roxas save her after second battle of course
I thought she said she would return to Sora when she was fading? Wasn't the whole thing in Days about her returning to Sora?
 

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Riku harbouring Terra's heart is very possible I think, while Terra's body is still used by Xehanort for his vessels.

He was possessed by Ansem, who is made up of Xehanort and Terra's hearts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a tiny bit of Ansem still left in Riku? By that logic, Terra is there too. Riku says in DDD that he locked Ansem away in his heart, he's still there. So, why can't Terra's heart be in Riku, just locked away with the Xehanort part? It can't escape to find a new body or return the way Xehanort did. Another way to put it, is that the Terra part of Ansem recognised Riku as the boy he chose to be his successor and stayed with him. If Terra-Xehanort is a vessel that is being used, perhaps that is why he can't return yet since its not free for his heart to go to.

I don't think we can rule out Terra's body being a vessel for Xehanort, whether its his original one or not, but I don't think we can rule out Terra's heart being in Riku too, considering Riku's past with Ansem.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Wouldn't Eraqus just stay with Terra or go back to his own body?


I thought she said she would return to Sora when she was fading? Wasn't the whole thing in Days about her returning to Sora?

That's already two more possible cans of worms though, lol.
You can launch several theories already from those two possibilities.


Yes, Xion's heart is sleeping inside Sora just like Roxas and Ventus, that's why Riku meets her alongside the blondie twins when he enters the core of Sora's heart at the end of DDD (where he also speaks with the Data-Ansem the Wise).
As I also explained above, Xion's puppet body was destroyed at the end of Days, so right now, just like Roxas and Naminé, she's an existence of only a heart with no corresponding body and soul available, and thus worthless to Xehanort because to fill seats for his 13, he needs vessels/bodies and not hearts.
 

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And what about Larxene and Marluxia? I know they wanted to betray the organization but they were kinda strong and evil ( larxene...brrr ). Moreover we know nothing about their somebodies, just speculations about true names ( Arlene and Lumiara maybe? ). I see theme being there Honestly. Moreover they are the ones that dealt the biggest damage to Sora by abusing physically and mentally of him, namine, and even Roxas ( larxene ). Moreover, in 358 days we can see that Saix had plans to overthrow the organization with Axel's help as well so i would Not count out Larxene and Marluxia just cause they betray ed the org.
 
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Sephiroth0812

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And what about Larxene and Marluxia? I know they wanted to betray the organization but they were kinda strong and evil ( larxene...brrr ). Moreover we know nothing about their somebodies, just speculations about true names ( Arlene and Lumiara maybe? ). I see theme being there Honestly. Moreover they are the ones that dealt the biggest damage to Sora by abusing physically and mentally of him, namine, and even Roxas ( larxene ). Moreover, in 358 days we can see that Saix had plans to overthrow the organization with Axel's help as well so i would Not count out Larxene and Marluxia just cause they betray ed the org.

While it certainly isn't impossible, it is not very likely.
Larxene and Marluxia were explicitly send to Castle Oblivion to be eliminated because Xemnas knew they were traitors and "useless" to him.
In DDD, Xemnas names several categories of Organisation members "unfit" to become Xehanort vessels:
Xemnas said:
However--through weakness of body...weakness of will...or weakness of trust--most of the original members we had chosen for the Organization were inadequate.
Thus, naturally, they never had a chance to attain their goal. Yet, even this was to be expected.

They fall into one of these because Xemnas actually wanted them gone (unlike Zexion and Vexen, which were killed because Saix wanted it while Lexaeus was a battle casualty).
Saix is a different case however as it was said that Xemnas knew about his "plan" with Axel but was unconcerned and didn't bother to actually stop it which is most likely because Saix already is "half-Xehanort" and a successful vessel.
This way Xemnas, Xigbar and Xehanort could always keep the tabs on Axel's and Saix' "plan" and interfere if it would have become necessary.
 

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Regarding AnsemSoD and Xemnas: We defeated them. This brought back Master Xehanort. Now they get time travelled in for the final showdown. If we defeat them, again, does MX get brought back yet again?
 

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While it certainly isn't impossible, it is not very likely.
Larxene and Marluxia were explicitly send to Castle Oblivion to be eliminated because Xemnas knew they were traitors and "useless" to him.
In DDD, Xemnas names several categories of Organisation members "unfit" to become Xehanort vessels:


They fall into one of these because Xemnas actually wanted them gone (unlike Zexion and Vexen, which were killed because Saix wanted it while Lexaeus was a battle casualty).

I wonder if Xaldin and Vexen are among the 13 vessel of darkness as when they were brought back they were in an unstable condition compared to Lexaeus and Zexion. Vexen especially, since he was the organisation's scientist. He along with Xemnas and Xigbar were the only ones who originally knew the truth about Xion and he did make a somewhat cryptic remark to Ventus about them being destined to meet in the future. We know that Xemnas and Xigbar were just manipulating the other members, but what if Vexen was also in on the real plan?
 

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Mmmm i don't think so honestly...it's a weird question o_O. I hope so much for a Vexen comeback! He lost his life cause he wanted to protect the organization so he is very loyal to xemnas. As u said he was responsabile of Xion and Riku replica.
 

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I just feel that Vexen is to useful to be discarded by Xehanort. Sure he is not all that powerful but he is probably the most intelligent of the old Organisation. Also he seemed kind of shady in BBS.
 

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I just feel that Vexen is to useful to be discarded by Xehanort. Sure he is not all that powerful but he is probably the most intelligent of the old Organisation. Also he seemed kind of shady in BBS.

Vexen is one of the most underrated in the organization just cause he died first. Sure it was defeated by Sora but actually Killed by Axel. He was Not meant to die in Castle Oblivion ( as Xemnas says in 358/2 days) and he is Not that weak , When in the organization u have people such as Demyx and Luxord. Yeah he is kinda shady ( still Not Larxen ) but to me he deserves a comeback along with other members.
 

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After fighting Vexen in KH2 (2.5) I don't think I could ever consider him weak. His mind was obviously valued and the data fights are just data of the real ones so I doubt his battle power was lacking.
 

Sephiroth0812

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I wonder if Xaldin and Vexen are among the 13 vessel of darkness as when they were brought back they were in an unstable condition compared to Lexaeus and Zexion. Vexen especially, since he was the organisation's scientist. He along with Xemnas and Xigbar were the only ones who originally knew the truth about Xion and he did make a somewhat cryptic remark to Ventus about them being destined to meet in the future. We know that Xemnas and Xigbar were just manipulating the other members, but what if Vexen was also in on the real plan?

Those two certainly have a higher probability than Larxene or Marluxia, as not only are they stated to be still "unstable" in DDD, Xaldin also has the pointed ears that could be a hint towards a Xehanort seed while Vexen was more or less a very valuable asset due to his mind and intellect.
When speaking of BBS, Even did not only make this remark, he was also able to somehow see/sense that Ventus has a heart of pure light and that it was made so artificially when he first sees him at the entrance of Ansem's castle:
BBS said:
Ven: Leave this to me!

Aeleus: Stop!

Dilan: But you're just a child!
(The guards look at each other and continue forward.)

Even: Now who do you think will defend the castle if you two go skipping off?
(A man in a lab coat walks toward them.)

Aeleus: But, that boy...

Even: Never you worry about him. He's a special case.

Aeleus: A what?
Dilan: Even is right. Lord and castle come first. The boy will have to fend for himself.

Even: Which reminds me, His Lordship was asking for you.
(The guards walk toward the castle gates.)

Even: A heart devoid of darkness? Stripped clean of it, at that... Very questionable.
The bold parts are the interesting parts as it seems that Even knows more about Ventus than he lets on. Who knows, maybe Braig wasn't the only apprentice of Ansem Master Xehanort had contact with already at the time of BBS?


Vexen is one of the most underrated in the organization just cause he died first. Sure it was defeated by Sora but actually Killed by Axel. He was Not meant to die in Castle Oblivion ( as Xemnas says in 358/2 days) and he is Not that weak , When in the organization u have people such as Demyx and Luxord. Yeah he is kinda shady ( still Not Larxen ) but to me he deserves a comeback along with other members.

It is true that Xemnas counted Vexen's demise as "unexpected" and a hindrance to his plans, so he definitely didn't count him in on the list of those he wanted to get rid of. Castle Oblivion was also meant to be a research facility for the Organisation so Xemnas most likely send Vexen there to do more research to further the agenda of the Organisation.
Zexion was also not meant to die by Xemnas, it was Saix that wanted him out of the way.
Axel however mentions in the secret reports available in 358/2 Days that killing Vexen was not part of his and Saix's plans either and that he just got caught in the middle of the overlapping different plans of different groups at Castle Oblivion:
Secret Report Day 28 said:
I've uncovered most of what I need to know about the Replica Program, but where's the other one? I can't find any trace of it. ...Vexen was caught in the middle. Pitiable, but unavoidable. I could not risk his Program falling into their hands. Of greater concern are the traitors. Not the obvious turncoats, but the ones who will get in his and my way. The Keyblade master is not our enemy.

I would be cautious when dismissing Luxord as weak though as he was one of the last Organisation members standing together with only Saix and Xemnas himself in KH 2.
 

Olympian

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Well Vexen is only weak in comparison to most of the other organisation members. It is mind and his ability to create replicas that makes him so valuable to the organisation. Still he is an interesting character and I hope he is among the 13 darkness's.

I wouldn't rule out Luxord either. Sure he likes to gamble a lot but he is still willing to do his job unlike Demyx. I still can't understand how he made it into the organisation in the first place.
 

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So I have a "theory". It's more of a possible observation/maybe needing clarification. It's my first "theory" so let me down easy. lol. Anyway... I rewatched some DDD scenes and it made me think. There were a few things that stood out to me.
1. YX states that he had to gather versions of himself from the past to start a new organization.
2. YX states that he will go back to his own time and not remember anything that he experienced.
3. When Xigbar shot the arrows around Sora and the Organization members appeared, only Xigbar and YX had their hoods down.

The first one makes me think that maybe the versions he is collecting aren't actually part of the organization, just being used to help create the organization. By past versions, I take this to mean Xemnas and Ansem SoD. Thats where the list stops. They were tasked with finding vessels for Xehanort. The reason I believe this is because of #2.

If YX, Ansem SoD, and Xemnas go back to their own times, then how could they still be a part of the new Organization, especially since they don't remember anything that they experienced. And, furthermore, if others from the new organization went back to their own times, then wouldn't the same hold true for them? I just think that the time travelers are basically used as a method for Xehanort to be able to collect vessels. Why would he count them in the 13 if they were only temporarily able to be there. If he was seriously not expecting Sora to be rescued, wouldn't he have been freaking out since a great number of his 13 were no longer usable since they had to return to their own time? All of this is kinda supported by #3.

Xigbar shoots his arrows down and the organization members appear. All hooded at first. then it shows YX with his hood down. Every other time we've seen a hooded figure and we already know their identity, they appear with their hood down. So if Ansem SoD and Xemnas were part of the 13, why weren't their hoods down? Sora had already come into contact with Xemnas, so at least his hood should have been down.

And the other thing that kind of ties into this is the new scene in Re:Coded. Briag has that conversation with YX. I think (in support of YX just helping collect vessels) YX uses his keyblade recreate Xigbar and Siax. I mean a fresh nobody hasn't had time to grow a heart and it would be easier to put MX heart in them (makes sense to me anyway).

So my point is, I don't think YX, Xemnas, or Ansem SoD are part of the new Organization. I might have been wrong on some things, but again, go easy on me. It's my first "theory".:tongue:
 

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I always just thought the organizetion members that Xigbar somehow brought there were just illusions. That's why it never crossed my mind why their hoods were up. It's weird to think that YX said you can travel through time, but time itself is immovable. Yet he can grab a bunch of versions of himself through time? How would he do that without taking them from where they were originally? And if that's what he did, then isn't that changing time? Xehanort says you can't change what's destined to happen. But grabbing people from the past seems to me like it would change the future. I try to understand time traveling… it's easier thinking about it in my head than trying to write down what I think. I wish they didn't have to add time traveling! It's so crazy!
 

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There's Master Xehanort, Xemnas, Ansem, Young Xehanort, Xigbar, and Isa. TV Tropes posits that Braig is also in the organization which would be easier. Vanitas doesn't even have to undergo the Nort process since he's pure darkness, and just has to be pulled through from a moment when he's with Master Xehanort.

Still hoping Scar and Frollo are forcibly inducted into the Organization, with as much darkness as they have within them. Prince Hans would also be a fine candidate, the monstrous sociopath he is, if Frozen is included.
 

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I kinda like the idea of Ansem and Xemnas not coming back. DDD made them far from interesting. (master Xehanort too) I'd be kinda bummed not to see young Xehanort again though.
 
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