Don't get me wrong, KH2 WAS done horribly, there's no denying that.
Amen.
But, like you said with Days, once you get past the badly integrated worlds and the loss of brain cells in most characters, KH2 also had a plot, and it served some importance, badly done as it was.
Isn't obvious? Goofy stole them! It's the only explanation as of to why he is so smart and Sora is a complete and utter dumbass! Do the math.
Any way, you are most certainly correct. Kingdom Hearts II served importance...as did Days, only in a separate way as I noted in one of my opening posts in this thread.
With KH2, the actual plot just took place at the beginning, took a break for Sora's adventures through worlds after Mysterious Tower, and then reappeared at TWTNW.
Reika, you adventitiously just confirmed Kingdom Hearts II bears virtually no semblance to a plot (in a more so radical way than any example I have listed.) Allow me to define “Plot”
The plot is the sheer quintessence of the story. It is the very fabric that laces all the subsequent events of the storyline into one massive tale. Essentially, “The Plot” is a conglomeration, a chain, or web, of all the events linking the beginning of a story to the end. Depending on who you ask, the “middle” or how you get to the “end” is the core of the entire story. Thus,
the plot. A “beginning” and an “end” are not a plot. You are neglecting the most imperative piece-
middle/plot itself.
I know that is not the way you meant that, but next time-select your terminology a bit more meticulously
At any rate…you are still partially correct. That is a complete mess, and by no means a plot. If it were an actual plot, the ending would have been literally no where as anticlimactic as it concluded. Kingdom Hearts II has a “plot,” not
plot.
The plot that DID exist was still important to the story. It, as I've said, gave closure to the endings of KH1 and CoM. It showed us what happened to everyone, and set up the next couple of games.
By the way, I never said Kingdom Hearts II was not pivotal to the story-just that it is complete and utter ****. Total difference.
…As for “gave closure to the endings of KH1 and COM” Kingdom Hearts 1? Yes. Chain of Memories? Not at all whatsoever,
unless I have missed some critical piece of information. If so, I request that you enlighten me (I’m serious,not joking around.) This is literally half the reason I loathe Kingdom Hearts II's story.
Reflect on the ending of Chain of Memories. Now, tell me how those events were representative of the end of Kingdom Hearts II? In fact, other than Sora's comatose stasis and the "Thank Namine" note in Jiminy's journal...Chain of Memories references are non-existent-which is disappointing. It is
almost the same as Xion, forgotten and never mentioned again. One of the reasons I loathe KHII is because it disregards all the intriguing elements introduced in COM. It almost feels as if COM was pointless.
I ask you, what purpose did Days serve? How was important to the overall KH plot (NOT importance to the Days plot, but to the overall plot of all KH games)? What good will the knowledge we learned in Days serve for us in future games?
Please refer to my earlier post near the beginning of this thread. It is too
early to make such an audacious conclusion. That is being needlessly dismissive and insular (not saying that you are) The series has not ended-and Xion still has much unexplored potential. I have already admitted most of her actions were "self contained in Days"-but Days did foreshadow (to a lesser extent)
Birth by Sleep, which was unreleased at the time. We learn that Xemnas
is familar with Ventus, and is searching for him (hinting at the fate of a certain someone in BBS) The latter also addresses Xigbar. We learn why Roxas can Dual Wield (you can ramble about not "needing" to know this and it being "retconned"-at the end of the day, it's the new true canon explanation) and so on. So to answer your question, it
has foreshadowed to a "future" game that has already been released. Now, for games that extend
after KH2's storyline, that much I cannot say. However, as I noted in my earlier post:
Xion has been referenced in Blank Points and mentioned in Re:Coded. This alone quantifies that
Xion has a lingering chance of "redeeming"
herself for you ungrateful people
Just be patient. When the franchise ends and nothing comes to light of Days-
then and only
then can we truthfully say it was not needed.
That is why it is worse than KH2 for a KH game, because at least KH2 had SOME importance. Days couldn't even do that. Whether or not it caught your attention or didn't is up to personal preference. I was talking about importance- and necessity-wise with my statement.
Can I ask you something, Reika? Using your reasoning, something conflicts me. What distinguishes Chain of Memories from 358/2 Days in matters of overall precedence? Because no matter how much I enjoyed Days: COM>>>>Days. Allow me to explain:
Be pensive for a moment. Vexen, Lexaeus, Zexion, Larxene, and Marluxia are expunged in that game-and are self contained in that
one game. They are not mentioned once in Kingdom Hearts II-as if they never existed. The only exception being their "tombstones" in TWTNW (and only someone who completed COM would even know WTF they meant.) Even so, it is highly unimportant as you can "skip" COM and earnestly not need to know what the hell "Savage Nymph", "Cloaked Schemer", "Silent Hero", "Chilly Academic", and "The Graceful Assassin" mean. That is just how "pointless" they are were in the long run of things. Not even their names are on the tombstones for goodness sakes. Just so you know, I am
not counting KH2:FM+ when I say this.
You can argue that we saw the somebodies/original selves of
the first three in Birth By Sleep-but this contributes nothing to the plot as we were already informed they were ATW’s Apprentices. Moot point there.
The events of Castle Oblivion are totally shot out of the window and are never mentioned (perhaps once in the Secret Ansem Reports, I am not sure.) Even so, not in the main story itself.
The
only thing that mattered was Sora’s stasis
in the end which led to the regaining of his fragmented memories, and Riku's meeting of Diz and conquering AnsemSod which all happened...
in the end. Everything else that happened before
the end relates naught to KHII. (I.E. the five Organization Members, the Riku Replica conflict,
Castle Oblivion altogether)
In the long run of Days, the only thing that
truthfully mattered was Xion’s re-mergence with Sora so that he can finally awaken
in the end.
Both stories are marginally “unimportant” and their plots, per se, have little significance to Kingdom Hearts II-
only their ultimate endings. You have to look at it from all perspectives, not only the ones which support your argument. Calling Days “unimportant” is essentially the same as calling COM “unimportant,” which could not be
farther from the truth. If Days is not a “necessity” then neither is Chain of Memories. Days and COM are arguably more connected than COM/KH2, as Days is
actually integrated with COM. I would reassess that analysis if I were you. The only thing that "saves" this argument (partly) is the fact Days was thought of last-and thus needed to coincide with COM to make things work out. Even so, the principle still stands.
So, the Org members attacking others, including Sora, with Nobodies and Heartless aren't good reasons for attacking them?
Read my prior response to
Smile about the Organization and their control over Nobodies. I happily stand corrected on
that much. My point was, as antagonists, fighting them was borderline worthless
aside from this. They are barely a “true” threat. That is my main point.
The Org kidnapping Kairi and keeping information about Riku's whereabouts while taunting Sora about it isn't reason enough for Sora to get angry enough to go against them? LOLWUT?
Reika,
please replay Kingdom Hearts II. :smile:And did you read that last earlier post? Did The “information” on Riku was negligible, and mentioned…how many times? I will not dissemble to know the answer, but it was never a true driving force for Sora to pursue the Organization. If so, as Smile did, point me to the right direction. Sora imposed his inquiries regarding Riku to Xemnas-who dodged the bullet and threw it all on King Mickey. After that; Riku wut? After that last bit with the Land of the Dragons, Riku was a blimp on the radar. He was “okay” and Sora left it alone. His main focus was actually Kairi…who was abducted…
near the end of the game for no reason other than to provide Sora a true incentive for heading to the World That Never Was and kicking their asses. Crap writing at its finest. A damsel in distress, a total ass pull.
Didn't Days waste that potential even more so? They didn't do anything except give optional NPC comments, or harp on about Xion. :/
Tell me, what’s worse?
1. Having those NPCs and having
some sort of relation with them in Days, pairing in missions and what not, getting clearer insight on their personalities and realizing just how Organization XIII functions as a whole-
OR
2. Making them substandard antagonists that are rarely seen throughout the game, and apparently so insignificant, other than Xaldin, Xemnas, Saix, we don’t even
learn their damn names. Had I not wasted two years of my life living on KingdomHearts2.net/Khinsider.com two years before KH2 released- I would have no idea WTF Xigbar, Demyx, and Luxord’s names were the first time I fought them. Once again, we have to refer to the
Journal to know the name’s of who the hell we just killed. While you a trying to kill them, and know that they are “dangerous,” you have no idea WTF their names are. Think about that.
Introducing “important” characters in a story, and
having you fight them,
without telling you their damn names. Think about that.
I’m not going to sit here and lie that Days did not squander the potential of Organization XIII. But I adamantly stand by KHII doing it
radically worse. At least I have a sense of who they are in Days-as opposed to KHII.
Are you describing them in Days here, or in KH2? It's hard to tell.
Kingdom Hearts II. However,
both of them sadly suffer from it.
This is, AGAIN, true in Days, as well. What importance did Demyx and Luxord have in Days? What backstories for each member was given to us in Days, that we SHOULD have learned SOMETHING about, considering the player character lived with them for almost a friggin year?
…I’m not arguing with that, Reika. I concur that we should have learned more about them in Days, it’s only sensible. I never said it was not present in Days, just
worse in Kingdom Hearts II for the reasons I listed.
You hold these things against KH2, when Days is just as guilty, if not more so!
…No. I actually do not. All I responded to
you initially was: “You hold these things against Days, when KH2 is just as guilty, if not more so!” when you said:
Face it: as a KH game, it sucked worse than KH2.
See the irony here?
While Days is in fact,
guilty, Kingdom Hearts II is worse in that retrospect. Both are “guilty”, only
I feel KH2 is more so.
I do agree with that. But a lot of Days was unnecessary, as well, so KH2 shouldn't be the only game taking crap for having unnecessary elements. :/
AAAAGGGHHH! Lol You're saying the exact opposite of what I am. You’re taking everything I am thinking and just swapping the names of the games. All I mean is:
“But a lot of KH2 was unnecessary, as well, so Days shouldn't be the only game taking crap for having unnecessary elements. :/”
I am not saying Days is without its faults. Keep that in mind.
That's better than taking a great character like Roxas and deciding, "Hey, let's throw in another Kairi clone, have Roxas do jack shit plot-wise, for almost a year, except fanboy over said Kairi clone, which he'll do even after she dies!"
…This is subjective, that is, your definition of “jack shit.” There clearly is not “jack shit” to do in the Organization in the first place XD. I enjoyed his interactions with Xion, every second of it. With that said, I feel introducing a
great character, then abandoning him
all together is
light years more shitty than pairing him with a character you so happen to hate. That is the
definition of wasted potential. Better yet, it’s the definition of “pointless character.” Because get this: *whispers*
…in KH2…Roxas’ only purpose was to re-merge with Sora so that he could finally awake. Other than that…his struggles or time in the Org. is pretty much meaningless.None of it greatly affects Kingdom Hearts II’s overall plot. Oh wait…that sounds
just like a “
certain” character! *facepalm*
Alright, do you see where I’m going here? Not trying to get into another why “Character X is not pointless” argument, but I believe you caught the gist of what I am trying to get across.
I do not feel Roxas is anything near a pointless character,
because of Days. In Kingdom Hearts II alone, he was a plot device. Plain and simple. I felt no sympathy at his lost. Days allowed me to appreciate Roxas…and attain a slight distaste for Sora. It’s funny how it had opposite effects on the both of us.
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If you felt Xion wasted Roxas’ potential as a character, cool. I can see why. But no matter what, that potential remained “untapped” in duration of both games if you look at it without bias. Honestly, I would have loved to see more of Roxas' growth outside from Xion myself. At the same time, I was satisfied with Days nonetheless.
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Also....liking the story is heavily depended on whether you like Xion.
In a nutshell, pretty much this. I find myself using 358/2 Days story almost interchangeably with Xion herself. In fact...I'm pretty sure I did it several times with this post XD
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