What's the big problem with KH2 plot wise

[8298906]

oh boy, where to begin...

• disney and final fantasy getting shafted for poopy organization fellers (i don't give a flying patooty what people say, disney and final fantasy ARE what make this series so popular).
• nobodies -- stupid concept, the heartless were a perfectly fine enemy.
• the organization in general; we could have been fine with like four or five members, not fcuking thirteen.
• stupid xehanort twist -- an episodic series would have been quite alright.
• implying that sora is gay for riku. it's not true by any means, but the way their friendship is written in this game is terrible.
• axel. no, not because he is significantly less cool than in chain of memories, but because his friendship with roxas suffers the same problems as sora and riku's. i know they're not REALLY gay for each other, but the writing does not help prove that. days somewhat redeems his originally stupid motives in kh2, but that doesn't change the fact that his friendship with roxas seems like one giant yaoi-fest.
• sora/kairi relationship handled very poorly. once again, bad writing makes it seem like sora cares more about riku than kairi, which is just heavily untrue.
• nomura trying to shove way too many ideas into one series. very cluttered, as the above poster put rather nicely.

I agree with the majority of what your saying besides 2,3,& 4. But yeah I wish things could have been handled differently in KH2, but thanks for summing everything up. I just wanted to why exactly why people put KH2 down so much when I feel it was a alright game better than Days says this poster.

hey, at least its plot isn't as bad as days', but that's for another thread.

I heart you for this quote.

 

[scubasteve]

I agree with the majority of what your saying besides 2,3,& 4.

understandable. i guess it's just a matter of personal preference. i think nobodies, xehanort, and the organization would have been perfectly fine if they were handled a little better but, i don't know, i just thought they were all severely contrived ideas. entertaining ideas, yes, but painstakingly contrived.

I heart you for this quote.

<3

 

[tri-blade]

If I had 1 problem with KH2, it was the ratio of guys to girls. When KH 358/2 days was done, we had 1 out of every 7 Organization Nobodies being female. Hopfully, MX recruited just as many females as bad guys as boys in future KH series. Or at lest a 60-40 ratio of guys to girls. X3 Otherwise it was good.

FYI, the Organization was to be a little bland personality wise. I mean, HELLO! they have no hearts! They can't feel anything.

 

[scubasteve]

FYI, the Organization was to be a little bland personality wise. I mean, HELLO! they have no hearts! They can't feel anything.

no, that's the problem. it's disgusting that they're NOT supposed to have emotions, but oh boy, they can PRETEND to have emotions. talk about a pants pooper, nomura, geez make up your damn mind. if they had condensed the organization's numbers down to a reasonable amount (i.e. four or five, tops), and if they actually were emotionless (or better yet, just say they can have emotions, don't pull this stupid bullshit where they can pretend), then it'd be fine.

 

[scubasteve]

what also makes the plot of kh2 bad is that i am sitting here, 18 years old, on a saturday night, discussing the plot, and i can't help but feel a little bit more than slightly embarassed.

 

[loke13]

The promise was that it was supposedly longer than Kingdom Hearts wheras in fact, it was just a bit longer than KH2 instead of the promised "it's twice as long". To make matters worse, pacing was horrendous and that all of the world should not have been reused as some of the second visits weren't needed. When you think about it, if you had to cut out the useless fodder, Kingdom Hearts II would have been shorter than Kingdom Hearts, but in my opinion would be much better recieved.

So yeah, too much padding was one of them. The script added salt to the wounds.

All in all: Square-Enix, sack your writers and hire some new ones. Better yet, hire some western writers since they seem to be far more experienced than the writers you currently have. Even Daisuke was a disaster when it came to Final Fantasy XIII.

I know you didn't just diss my FF13.

 

[Hamster Lord]

I know you didn't just diss my FF13.

Dammit you beat me to it!

 

[Goldpanner]

I agree with all of the problems you said, stevo (except the yaoi part, I'm the type of fan those scenes were written for, sorry D

Buut I think despite the problems, it didn't make me hate the characters or feel like throwing my controller at the wall or anything like that. Unlike fucking Days. I was still interested and I appreciated the new themes they tried to put in. Unlike fucking Days.

I guess... even though it wasn't presented very well, my brain took what it did give me and ran with it and I was pretty happy anyway. Maybe if I'd been hyped for it and tried to theorise about the plot from the secret movies and all that I would have set myself up for disappointment...

 

[Ophan]

I agree with all of the problems you said, stevo (except the yaoi part, I'm the type of fan those scenes were written for, sorry D

Buut I think despite the problems, it didn't make me hate the characters or feel like throwing my controller at the wall or anything like that. Unlike fucking Days. I was still interested and I appreciated the new themes they tried to put in. Unlike fucking Days.

I guess... even though it wasn't presented very well, my brain took what it did give me and ran with it and I was pretty happy anyway. Maybe if I'd been hyped for it and tried to theorise about the plot from the secret movies and all that I would have set myself up for disappointment...

I think the hype died down after a long wait. I wasn't even that excited when i played BBS (which was pretty good). All this drama just seems so out of hand though.

 

[Zarin I Yehudahi]

I lol'd when everyone was hyping over BBS. I like the hype more than the actual games.

 

[State]

Kingdom Hearts II didn't have any problems with the plot of the series, but, games after KH2 are either contradicting a bit or are contributing to the entire plot minutely. But there's a huge contrast between the plots of Kingdom Hearts, Re: Chain of Memories and II.

Kingdom Hearts was about traveling through worlds getting rid of the Hearltess.
Re: Chain of Memories introduced a group of individuals that worked alongside and against themselves.
II introduced what was left of that organization and expanded the story a lot.

 

[Zarin I Yehudahi]

Yet the characterization of the Organization in CoM and Re:CoM was a lot better than in II. I mean I saw Marluxia and Larxene as a bit more three-dimensional than the guys in II save for Axel and Roxas.

 

[Malisteen]

OXIII in CoM where sinister, mysterious, ambitious, and most especially treacherous. An organization of traitors all plotting against each other and yet still working together against the heroes towards an inscrutable end. I think the size of the organization is perfect. It's just enough members to get multiple groups plotting with and against each other.

But all those aspects, so ably handled in CoM's plot, were dropped in KHII. In II, the remaining nobodies aren't particularly mysterious or ambitious. They don't plot against one another. They don't even come off as particularly sinister. We needed more internal politics from them, more cool calculation, at least one sub group plotting against the rest, using sora against each other. Each one should have been the spider at the center of their own tangled web, with all of the webs weaving together into a twisted Xanatos Roulette with Xemnas pulling the strings.

 

[State]

Yet the characterization of the Organization in CoM and Re:CoM was a lot better than in II. I mean I saw Marluxia and Larxene as a bit more three-dimensional than the guys in II save for Axel and Roxas.

OXIII in CoM where sinister, mysterious, ambitious, and most especially treacherous. An organization of traitors all plotting against each other and yet still working together against the heroes towards an inscrutable end. I think the size of the organization is perfect. It's just enough members to get multiple groups plotting with and against each other.

But all those aspects, so ably handled in CoM's plot, were dropped in KHII. In II, the remaining nobodies aren't particularly mysterious or ambitious. They don't plot against one another. They don't even come off as particularly sinister. We needed more internal politics from them, more cool calculation, at least one sub group plotting against the rest, using sora against each other. Each one should have been the spider at the center of their own tangled web, with all of the webs weaving together into a twisted Xanatos Roulette with Xemnas pulling the strings.

Have you agree with both of you. Organization XIII in Kingdom Hearts Re: Chain of Memories seemed more sinister, plotting, dark, mysterious, enigmatic and back-stabbing compared to the sensible, clueless and a little emotional members. Although 358/2 Days contributed little to the group, it gave back that charm of them plotting behind the scenes.

 

[Zarin I Yehudahi]

That wasn't enough for me. Though I was surprised with Saix. Him being Xemnas' bitch

 

[Rabgix]

Was hard to follow with Roxas being the 13th member of ORganization 13. I just didnt understand them till way late game.

 

[flurryflames]

Very interesting concepts. The organization wasn't just thrown into the game they had a purpose. Unlike us Japan had the mysterious member Xenmas in KH FM as the final boss against Sora. He was the one who manipulated Sora and kind of hinted the creation of Roxas.

KH 1 did nothing for me. Complete boring, yeah there were heartless in the game, but they were created from the 6 apprentices so that concludes the forshadowing of the organization in the whole. Then Bingo mystery solved. Now you find out where the heartless orignated from.

They were orignally called the 13th Order in Japan. It meant something, but I forgot what that was. 13 disciples? Maybe it was a magic number that had a nice ring to it. But there was a reason. However you explain the cause it fit. Besides the concept that there are 13 thrones Where Nothings Gather. Maybe because of the elemental issues, but it made sense to have 13 members and not just a few.

Yes there are 13 members, but of course Sora wouldn't be able to handle them all which is why supposably Normura wanted half of them in KH COM. Sora's IQ was down because he chose for Namine to erase his memories of Castle Oblivion and not of his past memories. It was one or the other. He had no choice because she messed with his memories too much. That is why he had no idea who the organization were to begin with. KH COM was the darkest because the organizations' intentions were still dark. Two of them wanted to take over the organization. Three more had other intentions. One was given different orders and he always follows orders. Certain events happen and then the whole game changes. Back stabbing yes, but there were other motives as well.

In KH2 the organization was determined to take down Sora as he was their threat to the goal that they wanted. There were a few cutscenes not added in the US version which Japan only has. So to us it is a little choppy.

They have no emotion, but even Yen Sid said they pretend to which is a ruse. So in other words they want to deceive people to believe that they do. They still have memories and remember those and act upon that. They have no emotions, but what if this is not true? What if Xenmas was messing with their minds to begin with. At times he would remind them that they have no emotions.

True they could have had more developement and I wished they did, but maybe in a future game they will. Kh2 had some plot holes as well, but I guess Normura likes to keep us wondering.

However the only thing that confuses me is the heart. Do they mean they actually don't have an organ heart. Or an emotional one?

The disney worlds seem like a nice touch to me and didn't distract with the story and the side villains added to it. It is interesting to interwine Final Fanasty with Disney.

 

[Jelai]

That wasn't enough for me. Though I was surprised with Saix. Him being Xemnas' bitch

This is what I didn't like about KH2, was how it made Saix seem like Xemnas' bitch, as if Saix were some weakling or pretty much the one-dimensional character that he is (or was). The pop goes the explosion of XemSai yaoi-ness, goodness gracioouussss it's as bad as the badass decay of Axel and the AkuRoku-ness that was all over KH2.

Then Days fixed that by revealing that Saix has been trolling Xemnas all along, which gives Saix a badass upgrade, and it's pretty much one of the few things I liked about Days. I never liked Saix's character and never particularly cared about him—heck I didn't even find his death to be that sad until Days came out and fleshed out more of his character. So now he's one of my Organization favorites. Add in the fact that BBS fleshed out his character even further due to revealing stuff about his Somebody/Other.

I do agree with everyone here that say that the Organization really didn't need thirteen people. Out of the thirteen, only ten are important (the six apprentices, Saix, Axel, Roxas, and Xion). The rest are just filler characters.

I also don't think it was a good idea for Nomura to introduce the concept of having no emotion, as emotion is what makes a character multi-dimensional. The reason why Axel is so memorable to everyone, including the Square-Enix staff, was because he had freaking emotions even though they were fake. It's hard to write of good characterization without giving life to a character; they just come across as two-dimensional beings. And that is what most of the Organization is.

I also agree with people that say Nomura is a bad storyteller. As much as I love his ideas, I have to agree that he does execute them poorly at times. He's not a very consistent writer and made a simple idea (light vs. dark) become so complex—and not in a good way—by adding all this crap about memories, emotions, Nobodies, some family-friendly existentialism, whatever—that it made the series lose a little bit of its original charm. The Disney characters in KH2 almost had no tie-in to the main plot; it was more about the remnants of the Organization than anything else. KH2 had less of a Disney feel to it, and the concept of the Organization almost didn't fit in with Disney had it not been for Birth by Sleep or even the KH2 Disney worlds alone.

 

[Orion]

Maybe because of the elemental issues, but it made sense to have 13 members and not just a few.

Thirteen's considered an unlucky number. Given you don't even have a Heart, only barely exist, and can't feel emotions, I'd consider Nobodies fairly hard-done-by and unlucky.

 

[Ophan]

KH 1 did nothing for me. Complete boring, yeah there were heartless in the game, but they were created from the 6 apprentices so that concludes the forshadowing of the organization in the whole. Then Bingo mystery solved. Now you find out where the heartless orignated from.

I completely disagree with this, as for one they did give an idea of where the heartless came from. The actual origin of the heartless in KH1 is still canon to the origins being placed in the future games. They are literally the manifestation of darkness given form, and the apprentices did take part in creating the heartless, however the creatures existed before them if you played BBS.

As far as that, yeah 13 is just known as an unlucky number, which was okay since Nomura liked to leave little hidden stuff like that, but it doesn't mean much in the character development department. There were just way too many characters to try to fill out. In my opinion i could care less about Organization XIII, i was more impressed with Ansem the seeker of darkness, and he didn't even get as much screen time.