Watch the first episode of Kingdom Hearts Mysteries here

[LightUpTheSky452]

@ShardofTruth... I'm confused. I thought Somebodies was an official term. Maybe I'm just remembering wrong, but I could've sworn I'd heard it a few times in the series, and from Nomura himself in interviews.

If nothing else, I do remember that Axel told Naminé that "We Nobodies can never hope to be Somebodies". But then again, that just might have been an Axel-ism. XD I need to look into this again now...

And also, I thought this video contradicted itself at first, too. But now that I think about it, I think it was trying to say that Sora and Riku weren't time traveling to see the past version of the worlds--as it was the Sleeping Worlds themselves that were showcasing that--but they had time traveled to enter the Sleeping Worlds to begin with, if that makes any sense at all?

ANYWAY, amazing job, everyone involved in this! KHInsider proves once again why it truly is the best KH site out there. I feel like I finally have a handle on this time travel stuff now, which is really saying something--seeing as how I used to avoid talking about this concept like the plague, and if I thought about it too much, my brain would always end up hurting.

But you guys have done a great job in explaining this all in an understandable way; so now I think I have as much a handle on this thing as is possible, with this crazy mess of a series that I love. So thanks a bunch! (And it's moments like this, that I remember why I love this fandom/fanbase so much, and just how fun it's been theorizing and figuring things out with everyone for longer than a decade now. I can't even think of another fandom that even comes close to this, and I cherish all this craziness greatly for that fact.)

Also... I can't wait to see the next episode: Especially since it's about one of my fav KH topics--the people connected to Sora--and something I can actually hold my own about/contribute to, so that's gonna be a real treat when it gets here. February can't get here fast enough, as far as I'm concerned. Eep!

 

[BEASTENDER]

I really like the video (Been waiting on this), but some things still feel weird to me.



If you can't change any events and happenings along the timeline, how did Ansem give Young Xehanort his powers...That changes the timeline in multiple ways. Ansem could only travel back after first existing, which was after Apprentice Xehanort turned himself into a heartless. Therefore, the Xehanort that he time traveled back too would obviously not have these powers yet, as Ansem should not, could not exist until Apprentice Xehanort turns himself into a heartless some time later in the future. So already the timeline appears to have been changed and manipulated. I'm not up to date on Xchi, but doesn't the Tome of Prophecy interfere with this no knowledge of the future stuff? Especially when it seems that he may be linked to the Foretellers based on the little info Xchi has provided and this sixth foreteller who didn't receive a tome (don't quote me on anything; and I don't even know how long ago Xchi takes place). However, it makes sense to me that he would go through such lengths if he is the sixth, as the sixth foretller did not receive a tome which can see the future. However, the way he talks about the Keyblade War and the Xblade, he makes it sound like it was many years before he was even born. So maybe it's impossible for him to be the Foreteller anyway if Xchi takes place before or just after the war. Theres still the matter of the tomes themselves though.

I don't want to be too quick to call plothole, especially when I'm likely wrong. It's one thing to be a ghost like entity and observe events as they take/took place, unable to do anything in the physical or spiritual realm. However, when you can bring past versions of yourself into a time where they do not belong, that in itself means you have altered events of the past, as there should only be one version of you in any moment in the past, and if 13 of them are in the present, that means 12 or 13 additional versions must also be there in that past to replace them, otherwise you're going against the rules again, as a version of you always has to exist. If there is only one you, an old version of you and a teenage version of you can't exist in the same plane at the same time unless you alter events. Actually, the moment Ansem step foot on Destiny Islands and stood before Young Xehanort something happened that didn't originally happen, and even though Young Xehanort didn't know it, an event was altered. He stood there once before Ansem was even created and time went as it should up until Ansem was created. However, in the cutscene we see, A being that shouldn't shouldn't exist appears in that same moment again and even goes as far as to relinquish new powers that he didn't previously have the first time he experienced that moment in the timeline, and therefore influences the future of the original timeline, which shouldn't be possible according to the rules. The user unknowingly follows the path that has been etched in the heart since they can't remember anything from their time travels, and therefore said person subsequently deviates from the original timeline unknowingly. If you have the explanation...please share lol I probably missed/overlooked/forgot something.


I'd argue that maybe Nomura means that no event changing pertains to major events, like birth,life,death,etc. But bringing versions of yourself from down the timeline into the present still seems to contradict the time traveling rules that are in place.

 

[Keyslinger]

I just had a thought what if Ansem SoD didn't just go to YX's time period but another future version of Xehanort had the ability to travel through time and tried to put other plans into motion? Also based on the new secret movie In HD 2.5 it seems YX has some other plans.

 

[Some guy]

I really like the video (Been waiting on this), but some things still feel weird to me.

You seem confused ... I'll try to explain how I understand it.

Everythin XH and YX did in the past already happened for everyone else in the present; after all if YX didn't get the power to time travel, he wouldn't have experienced his future. This etched memories he has yet to aquire in his heart, making him twisted and obsessed as an old man, and leading up to everything else ...
So, XH returning in the past is already part of history as it's this action that makes the timeline what it is. I'd wager the same holds true for whatever YX did in the past.

YX's occurences in the past are already set in stone, but the present (and future) is still changing. Having different versions of Xehanort in the present is thus not that weird.

 

[BEASTENDER]

You seem confused ... I'll try to explain how I understand it.

Everythin XH and YX did in the past already happened for everyone else in the present; after all if YX didn't get the power to time travel, he wouldn't have experienced his future. This etched memories he has yet to aquire in his heart, making him twisted and obsessed as an old man, and leading up to everything else ...
So, XH returning in the past is already part of history as it's this action that makes the timeline what it is. I'd wager the same holds true for whatever YX did in the past.

YX's occurences in the past are already set in stone, but the present (and future) is still changing. Having different versions of Xehanort in the present is thus not that weird.

I am confused, because I still don't see how that explanation results in their not being any altered timeline, even if everyone else knows only one history.


_______________________________Original Timeline____________________________________


Master Xehanort Destiny Island---------------------------> Desire for Time Travel-----> Ansem is Created.


This is the original timeline. This Xehanort cannot time travel at all, and released his heart to gain the ability to do so. So this is how things played out originally.



________________________________Altered Timeline___________________________________


Master Xehanort Destiny Island---> Ansem Interference--> Time Travel Abilities gained------> and so on.


Already we have the first problem. In the original timeline, the one that's supposed to be impossible to alter, is altered because Ansem exists and interferes. In the original timeline Ansem CANNOT exist on Destiny Island because he didn't turn himself into a heartless yet. Therefore going back in time and relinquishing powers to a younger version of yourself alters the timeline, because now he has powers he shouldn't have because the being that gave them to him can't even exist yet at that point in time. Like I said, it'd be one thing to be a ghost like entity and silently observe (even though you are there, you are not changing events); but giving someone powers is actively interfering and changing what originally was (A Xehnanort with no power), which is going against the rules Nomura set in place (seemingly). That is only the beginning. Because a being that can't exist yet exists and gives him new powers (whether he knows or not) changes many things in the future from then on, in order to have 13 versions of yourself in the present. You also said the past is set in stone. As per rules, that's how it's supposed to be. However, to have 13 versions of yourself in the present, you still have to have versions of you at every single point in the timeline according to the rules. So, if he brought them into the present, there have to be even MORE versions in the past to fill in the losses. So 12/13 other Xehanorts in the past to fill the place of the 12 he brought to the present. Otherwise, the versions he brought to the present no longer exist in the past, and this breaks the rules.

 

[Some guy]

I am confused, because I still don't see how that explanation results in their not being any altered timeline, even if everyone else knows only one history.


_______________________________Original Timeline____________________________________


Master Xehanort Destiny Island---------------------------> Desire for Time Travel-----> Ansem is Created.


This is the original timeline. This Xehanort cannot time travel at all, and released his heart to gain the ability to do so. So this is how things played out originally.



________________________________Altered Timeline___________________________________


Master Xehanor Destiney Island---> Ansem Interference--> Time Travel Abilities gained------> and so on.


Already we have the first problem. In the original timeline, the one that's supposed to be impossible to alter, is altered because Ansem exists and interferes. In the original timeline Ansem CANNOT exist on Destiny Island because he didn't turn himself into a heartless yet. Therefore going back in time and relinquishing powers to a younger version of yourself alters the timeline, because now he has powers he shouldn't have because the being that gave them to him can't even exist yet at that point in time. Like I said, it'd be one thing to be a ghost like entity and silently observe (even though you are there, you are not changing events); but giving someone powers is actively interfering and changing what originally was (A Xehnanort with no power), which is going against the rules Nomura set in place (seemingly). That is only the beginning. Because a being that can't exist yet exists and gives him new powers (whether he knows or not) changes many things in the future from then on, in order to have 13 versions of yourself in the present. You also said the past is set in stone. As per rules, that's how it's supposed to be. However, to have 13 versions of yourself in the present, you still have to have a versions of you at every single point in the timeline according to the rules. So, if he brought them into the present, there have to be even MORE versions in the past to fill in the losses. So 12/13 other Xehanorts in the past to fill the place of the 12 he brought to the present. Otherwise, the versions he brought to the present no longer exist in the past, and this breaks the rules.

First, there's only one timeline, the one with "interference". Without Ansem's going back in time, he wouldn't have been created in the first place. It's a stable loop of sorts ...
What I'm trying to say is: there's no timeline where YX doesn't get the power to time travel, how this is possible, I don't know as his future was still his to choose at that time. But you could also say Ansem's interference robbed him of that future, ensuring Ansem will be created and go back in time (thus the loop I mensionned) ...

For the second part, all incarnations he takes in the past will return at the exact time they left, with no memories of what they've done, ensuring the continuity of time. Also, they don't need versions of themselves to go back to, as they're kicked back automatically in their own time when they "run out of time".

 

[Dr_Mario64]

I SAID THE SAME THING. It's hard to take all of it seriously when this is also the same game series where we got to train a bunch of cutesy dream creatures.

I love it, though. Thanks for watching the video!

True, but I still respect the series because it never goes too far with the cutesy/comic-relief elements, and always retains its focus as a high-stakes fantasy drama.

Several series have fallen into the trap of not being able to decide on their identity, and characters and plots of one game often clash with another as a result. The most infamous example by far is the Sonic series, and Persona is bordering on this with the amount of spinoffs released recently with higher-than-average amounts of fanservice.

While it's not my favorite game, I do have a lot of respect for KH2 because it resolved the issue of "what kind of series is KH; despite being a crossover?" fairly early.

 

[BEASTENDER]

First, there's only one timeline, the one with "interference". Without Ansem's going back in time, he wouldn't have been created in the first place. It's a stable loop of sorts ...
What I'm trying to say is: there's no timeline where YX doesn't get the power to time travel, how this is possible, I don't know as his future was still his to choose at that time. But you could also say Ansem's interference robbed him of that future, ensuring Ansem will be created and go back in time (thus the loop I mensionned) ...

For the second part, all incarnations he takes in the past will return at the exact time they left, with no memories of what they've done, ensuring the continuity of time. Also, they don't need versions of themselves to go back to, as they're kicked back automatically in their own time when they "run out of time".

Okay, you say without Ansem going back in time, he wouldn't have been created in the first place. From what I understand, that cannot logically be. In order to travel to the the past, the past has to exist first.The event on Destiny Island took place some time before Xehanort turned himself into a heartless. A being can't come from the future if there is no past. Xehanort has to create him first. There is no version of yourself that can come from the future, if there is no past first. On Destiny Island, Ansem cannot exist. Fact 1, Ansem is a heartless. Fact 2, Xehanort on Destiny Island is not a heartless. Fact 3, Ansem cannot exist unless at some point Xehanort in an eventual present is turned into a heartless. Fact 4, Ansem can only time travel back to the past, if there is a past to go back too. Ansem was not there since the beginning of time, so there was a time Ansem was created. Ansem was not created before Xehanort, so Ansem had to be created sometime after Xehanort was born. We can confirm that Ansem was born after Xehanort became a heartless, and we can also confirm that that event on Destiny Island happened before Xehanort willingly turned himself into a heartless resulting in Ansem. There is supposed to be one timeline in KH, but with this theory based on his rules, I don't see how it's possible. The first Xehanort has no heartless, because at one point in time, that cutscene on Destiny Island was the present, not the past. In the moment that was the present and not a moment in the past, there was no Heartless, there was no nobody, there were no time traveling powers. However, when that moment became the past and the Ansem/Riku ordeal became the present, the Destiny Island Event is now the distant past and can now be traveled back too. And during this trip, Ansem altered the timeline with his influence by giving him powers and placing instructions or, "etching things into his heart" This is different from when the Destiny Island event was the present and not a moment in the past, and therefore, an event was altered and changed, and like Young Xehanort said, was the beginning of all that eventually transpired. So, I'm still seeing a flaw with the rules based on what has happened.


At the end of DDD, the existing vessels return to their rightful spots in the timeline with no memories as I mentioned. However, in order to have 13 versions of you fight 7 vessels of light, for that time in the present, they are missing in the past. That means while they fight with the 7 wielders in III, the incarnations that were taken to be the XIII in the present, don't exist in their respective place in the past anymore, unless there are clones or an additional 12/13 vessels are in their respective spots in the past.

 

[Anagram]

At the end of DDD, the existing vessels return to their rightful spots in the timeline with no memories as I mentioned. However, in order to have 13 versions of you fight 7 vessels of light, for that time in the present, they are missing in the past. That means while they fight with the 7 wielders in III, there is no version of them exists in the past anymore, unless there are clones or an additional 12/13 vessels.

It is a paradox. If they return to the exact moment they was taken from then from histories perspective they were never gone. Plus if they can't remember the trip then they can't alter anything which renders time alteration impossible.
Xehanort uses past to affect present but present can't affect past. The whole thing seems to go by what I saw one member call a Novikov principle.

Edit. This is where I saw it: http://forums.khinsider.com/dream-d...hearts-has-really-been-about-past-events.html

 

[Sdog]

The video was very well put together! For being the touchy time-travel subject, it handled itself pretty ok. Time travel in this series is something I think one just simply has to GET. I don't think I do as of yet, though I think I'm getting there.

 

[Dreaded_Desire62]

I'm confused about something. Why did Xemnas and Xigbar look forward to the destruction of their own group? I mean, Demyx, Larxene and Marluxia were probably unfit to be vessels, so that's why he had Sora destroy them.

My point I am trying to get at is, why did Xemnas have the Organization destroyed and where did those extra Xehanorts come from? I guess, it would have messed up the plot if he had more than thirteen vessels since having more than thirteen might ruin his plan.

 

[BEASTENDER]

It is a paradox. If they return to the exact moment they was taken from then from histories perspective they were never gone. Plus if they can't remember the trip then they can't alter anything which renders time alteration impossible.
Xehanort uses past to affect present but present can't affect past. The whole thing seems to go by what I saw one member call a Novikov principle.

Edit. This is where I saw it: http://forums.khinsider.com/dream-d...hearts-has-really-been-about-past-events.html

Maybe I'm putting too much real world logic into this. After all, all this is based on what I saw in the video. Prior, I just thought Xehanort could time travel lol I thought it was just his unique ability as a wielder. As for the rules and the actual explanation, I'm taking their word for it (I trust you guys lol) From here on, I'll use myself as an example. My name is Joshua, and I'm 21.



Now, current day Joshua just learned how to time travel (January 30th, 2015 -10:55 PM). I decide I want to go back in time and show 8 year old Joshua the future, which is my present. If I take 8 year old Joshua away from his time, I cannot exist in the future, because if I take him to the future, there was no me in the past to grow into the 21 year old me that can time travel and show young Joshua around. I believe this is why Nomura said there always has to be a version of you at the point in time you are in as you time travel, to avoid this classic paradox. Therefore, if Master Xehanort took 13 versions of himself from different times, they no longer exist in the past, meaning they can't exist in the present (But I can let the reversal slide and accept that they can exist in the present). This also goes against there always being a version of him in the time he took them from. In order to have XIII in the present, he needs to still have XIII versions of them in the past from where they came to be within the rules. When all is said and done, they return to their rightful places, not remembering anything that happened during their time traveling ventures. However, with their temporary stay in the present, those versions are no longer in the past. If time is etched and they exist in both times at the same time, then one set are clones, and I haven't heard anything about that. The exact same version of you can't exist in two places and two times at the same time, let alone 13 versions in 2 places and 2 times. That would make 26 Xehanorts, and thats obviously wrong. Either way, even if it's temporary, to have a young and old version of you exist next to each other in the same plane at the same time, you have to alter events of the past, which goes against the theory. I believe in Nomura's rules, but with the theory provided, I think there's some conflict. The explanation is from the fans, so I think there is a piece missing, as opposed to their being a flaw in the rules. Or, I'm totally wrong and no one has told me how yet lol (please do)


However I'm positive about the Young Xehanort on Destiny Islands thing. When the Destiny Island Event was the present and not the past, Ansem didn't exist and that is a proven fact, and therefore he could not plant anything into YX's heart, or give him the ability to time travel. The present at that time had not got far enough into the future for Ansem to even exist yet. And since at some point he is created, and at another he goes back to the Destiny Island event which is now the past AND changes Young Xehanort in several ways, even though Young Xehanort is totally oblivious of what has transpired, Ansem has still broken a rule and altered an event which resulted in everything that followed.


Anyway, I thoroughly enjoyed the video, and thanks for sharing! I like the conversations it's started, and questions it's created. It got me excited for KH3 all over again.

 

[Divine Past]

I'm confused about something. Why did Xemnas and Xigbar look forward to the destruction of their own group? I mean, Demyx, Larxene and Marluxia were probably unfit to be vessels, so that's why he had Sora destroy them.

My point I am trying to get at is, why did Xemnas have the Organization destroyed and where did those extra Xehanorts come from? I guess, it would have messed up the plot if he had more than thirteen vessels since having more than thirteen might ruin his plan.

They didn't try to get the organization destroy at all. Given the fact that Xigbar actually decide to fight SDG rather than just lay there. It was just when one of MX multiple backup plans. If the Organization succeed great! If Sora was able to defeat have a backup plan to still reach your goal.

 

[Anagram]

Maybe I'm putting too much real world logic into this. After all, all this is based on what I saw in the video. Prior, I just thought Xehanort could time travel lol I thought it was just his unique ability as a wielder. As for the rules and the actual explanation, I'm taking their word for it (I trust you guys lol) From here on, I'll use myself as an example. My name is Joshua, and I'm 21.

I would say putting to much "mainstream" thought into it. That thread was the first time I had seen a "Novikov" principle. But after googling it and reading I found there was several theories. According to some things I searched most series follow the string theory idea or parallel.
But of course Nomura picks the one nobody has heard of. lol

Now, current day Joshua just learned how to time travel (January 30th, 2015 -10:55 PM). I decide I want to go back in time and show 8 year old Joshua the future, which is my present. If I take 8 year old Joshua away from his time, I cannot exist in the future, because if I take him to the future, there was no me in the past to grow into the 21 year old me that can time travel and show young Joshua around. I believe this is why Nomura said there always has to be a version of you at the point in time you are in as you time travel, to avoid this classic paradox. Therefore, if Master Xehanort took 13 versions of himself from different times, they no longer exist in the past, meaning they can't exist in the present. This also goes against there always being a version of him in the time he took them from. In order to have XIII in the present, he needs to still have XIII versions of them in the past from where they came to be within the rules. When all is said and done, they return to their rightful places, not remembering anything that happened during their time traveling ventures. However, with their temporary stay in the present, those versions are no longer in the past. If time is etched and they exist in both times at the same time, then one set are clones, and I haven't heard anything about that. The exact same version of you can't exist in two places. Either way, even if it's temporary, to have a young and old version of you exist next to each other in the same plane at the same time, you have to alter events of the past, which goes against the theory. I believe in Nomura's rules, but with the theory provided, I think there's some conflict. The explanation is from the fans, so I think there is a piece missing, as opposed to their being a flaw in the rules. Or, I'm totally wrong and no one has told me how yet lol (please do)

Your overthinking it. See your taking young Josh into the present but your not killing him. Young Josh eventually returns to his past and grows into you older Josh. Your not altering history because the young Josh is taken back to when he first left or just a few moments after.

What your describing would entail young Josh dying or ceasing to exist period. If you take young Josh to the future and he dies then yeah your diddlyed but that isn't what happens. You take young Josh off to the present>he comes back to the past>grows into you.

Young Josh isn't ceasing to exist because he's still living and he eventually returns to his proper place. The only way your example would work is if you killed young Josh.

However I'm positive about the Young Xehanort on Destiny Islands thing. When the Destiny Island Event was the present and not the past, Ansem didn't exist and that is a proven fact, and therefore he could not plant anything into YX's heart, or give him the ability to time travel. The present at that time had not got far enough into the future for Ansem to even exist yet. And since at some point he is created, and at another he goes back to the Destiny Island event which is now the past AND changes Young Xehanort in several ways, even though Young Xehanort is totally oblivious of what has transpired, Ansem has still broken a rule and altered an event which resulted in everything that followed.


Anyway, I thoroughly enjoyed the video, and thanks for sharing! I like the conversations it's started, and questions it's created. It got me excited for KH3 all over again.

Nothing is proven. Ansem had to exist or he wouldn't be there at all. It is just that simple. Ansem is young Xehanort's future so he does exist.
I don't really get that part. Why would young Xehanort need to be seeded? Isn't just just the main Xehanort but in puberty?

 

[BEASTENDER]

I would say putting to much "mainstream" thought into it. That thread was the first time I had seen a "Novikov" principle. But after googling it and reading I found there was several theories. According to some things I searched most series follow the string theory idea or parallel.
But of course Nomura picks the one nobody has heard of. lol



Your overthinking it. See your taking young Josh into the present but your not killing him. Young Josh eventually returns to his past and grows into you older Josh. Your not altering history because the young Josh is taken back to when he first left or just a few moments after.

What your describing would entail young Josh dying or ceasing to exist period. If you take young Josh to the future and he dies then yeah your diddlyed but that isn't what happens. You take young Josh off to the present>he comes back to the past>grows into you.

Young Josh isn't ceasing to exist because he's still living and he eventually returns to his proper place. The only way your example would work is if you killed young Josh.


Nothing is proven. Ansem had to exist or he wouldn't be there at all. It is just that simple. Ansem is young Xehanort's future so he does exist.
I don't really get that part. Why would young Xehanort need to be seeded? Isn't just just the main Xehanort but in puberty?
Ansem hasn't broken anything. I thought young Xehanort explained it well. He goes back, forgets, and is just as he was when he left.

The young version of me doesn't have to die in the future for it not to be possible. If I take the young version of me in the past to the future (which is my present) there is no longer a Joshua in the past. If there is no longer a Joshua in the past even for a second, in that second the timeline stops right there and ceases to go forward, because without a Josh in the past, anything going forward never happened because I dont exist. There is no Josh to move forward along the timeline. If Josh ceases to exist in the past, time travel can't work. In order for the basic concept of time travel to even work, The young version of me has to have lived up to the same point in the future. However, if he never lived on and disappeared, there is no future for me to go to, and there is no 21 year old Josh that learns how to time travel. 8 year old Josh going to the future and Killing 8 year old Josh in the future are one and the same. In both scenarios, there exists no Joshua in the past. The only difference is in one scenario, I never existed.


As for Xehanort, I'm not saying Ansem doesn't exist, no not at all lol I'm saying he couldn't possibly have existed at the time the Destiny Island event was the present, because Young Xehanort doesn't turn himself into a heartess until sometime later. Xehanort on Destiny Island could not time travel. If he could, why turn into a heartless? Remember why Ansem was created in the first place. Young Xehanort had the desire to travel through time, so he created Ansem. As we saw, Ansem was not created on Destiny Island in that moment, but later in the future. When Xehanorts' experiment was a success, then and only then was he able to travel back in time for the first time through the new being that was Ansem (and you cant travel back to an event that hasnt happened which means the Destiny Island even already happened), and there we see where Ansem intervened and set Young Xehanort on a course. So don't think I'm saying Ansem never existed, no of course not. I'm saying, there can't possibly be a way the timeline wasn't altered, if Ansem went back in time and changed Xehanort. The event had to happen first for him to be able to travel back to it. That Xehanort didn't meet an Ansem because he didn't exist yet, because he didnt turn himself into a hearltess until some time later. After Ansem is created and exists, THEN he went back and "altered" Young Xehanort. So you have, Xehanort who can't time travel but eventually has the desire and goes through with it. And then you have Xehanort who can time travel(but doesnt know yet) who also gains the desire and then goes through with it. If Ansem wasnt there since the begining of time, he had to be created. If he wasnt created yet, there was no way for him to contact him unless he was created in the future, and then traveled back to the past.

If he would have just watched, he would not have altered the past. However, he changed Young Xehanort, and subsequently did. I'm not sure how to simplify this point further lol Im sure 3 will clear this up. If we have to go through all of this, Im sure your average/casual fan hasnt the feintest idea of what any of this even means.

 

[Anagram]

The young version of me doesn't have to die in the future for it not to be possible. If I take the young version of me in the past to the future (which is my present) there is no longer a Joshua in the past. If there is no longer a Joshua in the past even for a second, in that second the timeline stops right there and ceases to go forward, because without a Josh in the past, anything going forward never happened because I dont exist. There is no Josh to move forward along the timeline. If Josh ceases to exist in the past, in order for the basic concept of time travel to even work, The young version of me has to have lived up to the same point in the future. However, if he never lived on and disappeared, there is no future for me to go to, and there is no 21 year old Josh that learns how to time travel. 8 year old Josh going to the future and Killing 8 year old Josh in the future are one and the same. In both scenarios, there exists no Joshua in the past. The only difference is in one scenario, I never existed.


As for Xehanort, I'm not saying Ansem doesn't exist, no not at all lol I'm saying he couldn't possibly have existed at the time the Destiny Island even was the present, because Young Xehanort doesn't turn himself into a heartess until sometime later. Xehanort on Destiny Island could not time travel. If he could, why turn into a heartless? Remember why Ansem was created in the first place. Young Xehanort had the desire to travel through time, so he created Ansem. Ansem can now travel back in time (and you cant travel back to an event that hasnt happened which means the Destiny Island even already happened), and there we see where Ansem intervened and set Young Xehanort on a course. So don't think I'm saying Ansem never existed, no of course not. I'm saying, there can't possibly be a way the timeline wasn't altered, if Ansem went back in time and changed Xehanort. The event had to happen first for him to be able to travel back to it. That Xehanort didn't meet an Ansem because he didn't exist yet, because he didnt turn himself into a hearltess until some time later. After Ansem is created and exists, THEN he went back and "altered" Young Xehanort. So you have, Xehanort who can't time travel but eventually has the desire and goes through with it. And then you have Xehanort who can time travel(but doesnt know yet) who also gains the desire and then goes through with it. If Ansem wasnt there since the begining of time, he had to be created. If he wasnt created yet, there was no way for him to contact him unless he was created in the future, and then traveled back to the past.

If he would have just watched, he would not have altered the past. However, he changed Young Xehanort, and subsequently did. I'm not sure how to simplify this point further lol Im sure 3 will clear this up. If we have to go through all of this, Im sure your average/casual fan hasnt the feintest idea of what any of this even means.

That isn't correct and there is more than one concept of time travel. It's just that his game isn't following one you normally see. Your limiting yourself to only the concept your familiar with.
The world is just more than one person and it isn't gonna stop moving forward just because young Josh is gone. Your missing the point that young Josh goes back. History says young Josh grows into big Josh not that he doesn't disappear for a little while and come back.
If history said you didn't disappear at a certain point but you did then time would be altered. But if time simply says you grow into you then nothing changes because nothing says you didn't disappear for a while.

It wasn't young Xehanort's desire to go back in time but older Xehanorts. Young Xehanort remembers nothing therefore he can't "want" anything. Your interrupting the events all backwards.
Taking the kind of man older Xehanort is into account what makes you think he wouldn't come up with this on his own anyway?
Ansem existed in KH1 and traveled back into his past. I don't get what confuses you about this. It's all one big set of events. Young Xehanort>ages>Old Xehanort>Terranort>Amnesiac trope>Ansem>goes backwards a few decades.
They all exist because it is Xehanort's timeline. Young Xehanort exists in his past, Ansem exists less ways in that same past and 13 Xehanort's exist in the present.

Your not simplifying any points. Your basically making a simple point more complicated than it is. All that really matters is that Xehanort said he can't alter anything. It was said in-game, it's a solid fact. There isn't any real way to argue this point.

All this is giving me a headache as well. If it's just going to be this circle of convolution I'm going to have to just agree to disagree so I can go back to my casual view of "oh it's a bishie Xehanort". This reminds me one reason I hate DDD. lol (besides the gameplay, hated that more)

 

[BEASTENDER]

That isn't correct and there is more than one concept of time travel. It's just that his game isn't following one you normally see. Your limiting yourself to only the concept your familiar with.
The world is just more than one person and it isn't gonna stop moving forward just because young Josh is gone. Your missing the point that young Josh goes back. History says young Josh grows into big Josh not that he doesn't disappear for a little while and come back.
If history said you didn't disappear at a certain point but you did then time would be altered. But if time simply says you grow into you then nothing changes because nothing says you didn't disappear for a while.

It wasn't young Xehanort's desire to go back in time but older Xehanorts. Young Xehanort remembers nothing therefore he can't "want" anything. Your interrupting the events all backwards.
Taking the kind of man older Xehanort is into account what makes you think he wouldn't come up with this on his own anyway?
Ansem existed in KH1 and traveled back into his past. I don't get what confuses you about this. It's all one big set of events. Young Xehanort>ages>Old Xehanort>Terranort>Amnesiac trope>Ansem>goes backwards a few decades.
They all exist because it is Xehanort's timeline. Young Xehanort exists in his past, Ansem exists less ways in that same past and 13 Xehanort's exist in the present.

Your not simplifying any points. Your basically making a simple point more complicated than it is. All that really matters is that Xehanort said he can't alter anything. It was said in-game, it's a solid fact. There isn't any real way to argue this point.

All this is giving me a headache as well. If it's just going to be this circle of convolution I'm going to have to just agree to disagree. This reminds me one reason I hate DDD. lol (besides the gameplay, hated that more)

Nothing confuses me about Ansem traveling back to the past. I'm saying since he did AND gave that version of him something he didnt have previosuly, he altered the past. Ansem didnt exist before Xehanort. This is what I'm trying to say and it's not debatable. We clearly saw a young adult Xehanort create Ansem. Therefore, if we literally saw a Xehanort that was older than the one on Destiny Islands create Ansem, he obviously didn't exist before he was created by Xehanort. Everything we know about KH happened because Ansem went back in time and influenced young Xehanort. He just went back in time before he was actually created. Its like If I created my own Ansem right this moment January 31, 2015, and that Ansem traveled back in time to 2012 to a younger me and placed the order "Look for ways to time travel" in my heart without me knowing. I'm saying, Ansem clearly didn't exist in 2012 since he was created on January 31, 2015. On January 31, 2015, I have no desire to Time Travel. However, On February 2nd, Ansem goes back in time and implants the message in my heart. Now, coming back to the present, January 31. 2015 I have the desire to time travel because of what my Ansem did in the paaaaaaaast before he was created lol That's all I've been trying to say. There IS one timeline, but it has been altered, as Young Xehanorts will is not his own, even though he doesnt know it. I understand you 100%, but no one seems to understand what I'm trying to say at all, so I give lol I


Mine was a really technical thing. In order for there to be one timeline that was never altered by anyone, based on the information we have Ansem had to have always existed, and that's quite obviously not true. If Young Xehanort on Destiny Islands was 17, and he didn't serve under Ansem the Wise and create the fake Ansem until he was say, 19, how could 17 year old Xehanort have known to time travel if he didn't create Ansem until 2 years later?When he was 17, there was no such thing as an Ansem, nor was there a thought or mention of him. When he was 17, there was no 19 year old Xehanort because it hadn't happened yet. That would be 2 years into the future. The point is, we know Ansem traveled back in time for a fact and is not debatable, and if Ansem didnt exist until Xehanort was 19 (not official ages of course) which well say takes 2 years after Destiny Island when hes 19, 17 year old Xehanort has no way of knowing any of this unless the being from 2 years later that is Ansem comes and tells him, which in turn changes the 17 year old Xehanort, who didnt create Ansem yet. But I really do give


Hahaha, you know what, I really, genuinely enjoyed the video and effort, but until something more concrete surfaces, I'm going back to my original theory. Xehanort can do whatever he does because Kingdom Hearts, and I'm just going to enjoy the story and gamplay lol Thanks for trying to help me though, I really appreciate it.

 

[Some guy]

Nothing confuses me about Ansem traveling back to the past. I'm saying since he did AND gave that version of him something he didnt have previosuly, he altered the past. Ansem didnt exist before Xehanort. This is what I'm trying to say and it's not debatable. We clearly saw a young adult Xehanort create Ansem. Therefore, if we literally saw a Xehanort that was older than the one on Destiny Islands create Ansem, he obviously didn't exist before he was created by Xehanort. Everything we know about KH happened because Ansem went back in time and influenced young Xehanort. He just went back in time before he was actually created. Its like If I created my own Ansem right this moment January 31, 2015, and that Ansem traveled back in time to 2012 to a younger me and placed the order "Look for ways to time travel" in my heart without me knowing. I'm saying, Ansem clearly didn't exist in 2012 since he was created on January 31, 2015. On January 31, 2015, I have no desire to Time Travel. However, On February 2nd, Ansem goes back in time and implants the message in my heart. Now, coming back to the present, January 31. 2015 I have the desire to time travel because of what my Ansem did in the paaaaaaaast before he was created lol That's all I've been trying to say. There IS one timeline, but it has been altered, as Young Xehanorts will is not his own, even though he doesnt know it. I understand you 100%, but no one seems to understand what I'm trying to say at all, so I give lol I


Mine was a really technical thing. In order for there to be one timeline that was never altered by anyone, based on the information we have Ansem had to have always existed, and that's quite obviously not true. If Young Xehanort on Destiny Islands was 17, and he didn't serve under Ansem the Wise and create the fake Ansem until he was say, 19, how could 17 year old Xehanort have known to time travel if he didn't create Ansem until 2 years later?When he was 17, there was no such thing as an Ansem, nor was there a thought or mention of him. When he was 17, there was no 19 year old Xehanort because it hadn't happened yet. That would be 2 years into the future. The point is, we know Ansem traveled back in time for a fact and is not debatable, and if Ansem didnt exist until Xehanort was 19 (not official ages of course) which well say takes 2 years after Destiny Island when hes 19, 17 year old Xehanort has no way of knowing any of this unless the being from 2 years later that is Ansem comes and tells him, which in turn changes the 17 year old Xehanort, who didnt create Ansem yet. But I really do give

You're making this way more complicated than it really is. Of course Ansem doesn't exist in YX's time, that's the whole point of time travel.

Xehanort always had the desire to time travel (and the power to move forward in time, but this is debatable) past that encounter with Ansem; Ansem wouldn't exist otherwise. Ansem exists in YX's future, even if it hasn't happened yet. And he goes back in time to make sure that future happens ...

In the one and only timeline, Ansem messed with the past, leading to his creation, leading to him going back, leading to his creation ... A stable loop, in a single timeline.

Also, any time displaced body will for sure return to his time in the same condition, at the exact time of departure, with no memories. This can happen when they run out of time, or are destroyed. So, as YX cannot escape his present, his future will always exist.

Time travel stuff is always complicated, but I believe KH's is one of the simplest.

 

[Alpha Sonix]

You're making this way more complicated than it really is. Of course Ansem doesn't exist in YX's time, that's the whole point of time travel.

Xehanort always had the desire to time travel (and the power to move forward in time, but this is debatable) past that encounter with Ansem; Ansem wouldn't exist otherwise. Ansem exists in YX's future, even if it hasn't happened yet. And he goes back in time to make sure that future happens ...

In the one and only timeline, Ansem messed with the past, leading to his creation, leading to him going back, leading to his creation ... A stable loop, in a single timeline.

Also, any time displaced body will for sure return to his time in the same condition, at the exact time of departure, with no memories. This can happen when they run out of time, or are destroyed. So, as YX cannot escape his present, his future will always exist.

Time travel stuff is always complicated, but I believe KH's is one of the simplest.

Honestly this. At the start I was kind of confused about it myself but after playing the cutscene several times I was able to get a pretty good idea of what was going on. As long as you don't question every little intricate thing then you'll at least have a basis. Not saying that they should have used time travel in the first place, but it's a pretty simple time travel that doesn't affect the story at large, in other words, it's pretty self-contained which is a good thing.

 

[FudgemintGuardian]

So since this video has made me think about time travel (weird) it has also made me think on how the RoS is a place where "real time does not flow." Time does not flow in the Realm of Sleep but clearly time flowed while Sora and Riku were there, and then my cold started me picturing the RoS as a library of sorts (I might be a little disjointed here.) A book can't read itself. The information is there but someone has to turn the pages. A book by itself spends no time, but you spend time reading a book.
Now while the worlds seemed to repeat themselves while in sleep, it could be they really were is stasis. Unmoving until an outside source (Sora and Riku) turned their pages. So the RoS by itself has no flow of time, and only by an outside source does time there move.
I have no idea if I made sense.