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Things you don't like about the series/hope will change?



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duchessa

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I think the issue some people have with darkness isn't so much that it is unclear whether it's neutral or not since I think it's supposed to be a neutral force alongside light than it's that we have little to no examples of it being a neutral or good force. Terra, the Norts, Vanitas, and whoever else that isn't named Riku have issues with, use for evil, or are consumed by darkness. And like Alan said, Riku also has his light in equal parts.
It's always been associated with emotions like anger, hatred, etc. so maybe this puts it in the "natural" category, as happiness and affiliated emotions are also natural but instead associated with light. So instead of there being some true neutral here, the KH laws of nature are internally biased because these negative emotions aren't well liked. Despite that, they're still necessary, just like the darkness is. Or something.
 

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Wii is not a powerful console, III wasn't ready to be made yet
Still totally could've done BBS on Wii. Unless you think Wii is weaker than PSP too.

and it has been said many times they are not spinoffs,
That's the problem, they should have been! Square grossly overestimated the value of handheld gaming in the eyes of console gamers. People who say they'll only play 1/2/3 shouldn't be wrong for that. Square's approach to expanding the franchise went against all matter of common sense. No other Console based video game series has ever put this much emphasis on handheld entries.

God of War? Some nice extra lore but nothing that makes the core trilogy incoherent. Uncharted? Filler. Assassin's Creed? See GoW above. Batman Arkham? Most don't even bother counting Origins let alone Blackgate. Metal Gear? Hell I think 3 of its handheld entries are straight up non-canon, only Peace Walker is a factor to MGS5 but even that is probably minor in scope compared to KH.

& no one, no one, has ever made a wannabe facebook game absolutely essential to understanding their upcoming $50 million 8th gen console blockbuster.

they are necessary games to the franchise. Days was to understand II, build up other budding storylines (lea and isa's hidden agenda and get into the organization) and show that roxas and xion needed saving.

Uh, no. None of those are "necessary" because they could've gone with completely different plotlines altogether. We could've simply not had a Xion at all, not had some hidden agenda or even any further role for Axel & Saix.

re:coded was less required, however it brought maleficent and Pete back to relevance and foreshadowed 3D
I don't need to explain why DDD was required, if we just went into III after II and BBS, why is xehanort back? Why so many Disney bosses? Why is it like II but different worlds? Besides the fact, having so many well received games gave them a better budget and more experience of what to do and what not to.

Xehanort's return could be explained in KH3 itself. You know, like how most sequels are generally written. Why so many Disney bosses? IDK, why frickin' 7 vs. 13 to begin with? BBS showed it took 2 halves of ONE heart to make the X-Blade appear & then DDD changes it to 20 hearts being required? Drop DDD from canon & there is no need for another org. Maleficent could similarly have her presence explained within KH3 instead of a handheld title. She didn't get revived in CoM afterall.

Strictly speaking, the only story KH3 "needed" is as follows:

-Xehanort comes back as a whole person, which is explained within KH3 itself
-Maleficent is back, again explained in KH3 itself
-Evil plans, Bwah ha ha
-Bunch of Disney worlds
-Final world, kill Xehanort for good.
-end credits, cheesy bilingual pop song

That's the bare minimum. Everything else on top of that what Nomura choose to add on top of that. & it is IMO that he choose poorly what to go with.
 

Smithee

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Another thing that I don't like about the series is the Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy---from the good guys' frequent Pyrrhic Victory results, to the main bad guy's constant Villain Sue retcons.
 

Chuman

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Still totally could've done BBS on Wii. Unless you think Wii is weaker than PSP too.


That's the problem, they should have been! Square grossly overestimated the value of handheld gaming in the eyes of console gamers. People who say they'll only play 1/2/3 shouldn't be wrong for that. Square's approach to expanding the franchise went against all matter of common sense. No other Console based video game series has ever put this much emphasis on handheld entries.

God of War? Some nice extra lore but nothing that makes the core trilogy incoherent. Uncharted? Filler. Assassin's Creed? See GoW above. Batman Arkham? Most don't even bother counting Origins let alone Blackgate. Metal Gear? Hell I think 3 of its handheld entries are straight up non-canon, only Peace Walker is a factor to MGS5 but even that is probably minor in scope compared to KH.

& no one, no one, has ever made a wannabe facebook game absolutely essential to understanding their upcoming $50 million 8th gen console blockbuster.



Uh, no. None of those are "necessary" because they could've gone with completely different plotlines altogether. We could've simply not had a Xion at all, not had some hidden agenda or even any further role for Axel & Saix.



Xehanort's return could be explained in KH3 itself. You know, like how most sequels are generally written. Why so many Disney bosses? IDK, why frickin' 7 vs. 13 to begin with? BBS showed it took 2 halves of ONE heart to make the X-Blade appear & then DDD changes it to 20 hearts being required? Drop DDD from canon & there is no need for another org. Maleficent could similarly have her presence explained within KH3 instead of a handheld title. She didn't get revived in CoM afterall.

Strictly speaking, the only story KH3 "needed" is as follows:

-Xehanort comes back as a whole person, which is explained within KH3 itself
-Maleficent is back, again explained in KH3 itself
-Evil plans, Bwah ha ha
-Bunch of Disney worlds
-Final world, kill Xehanort for good.
-end credits, cheesy bilingual pop song

That's the bare minimum. Everything else on top of that what Nomura choose to add on top of that. & it is IMO that he choose poorly what to go with.

Regardless of going in half-cocked, it worked out in the end. They've gone through enough trial and error to not only create a better III than we would have gotten, the next saga should not suffer from the same issues.
 

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Still totally could've done BBS on Wii. Unless you think Wii is weaker than PSP too.


That's the problem, they should have been! Square grossly overestimated the value of handheld gaming in the eyes of console gamers. People who say they'll only play 1/2/3 shouldn't be wrong for that. Square's approach to expanding the franchise went against all matter of common sense. No other Console based video game series has ever put this much emphasis on handheld entries.

God of War? Some nice extra lore but nothing that makes the core trilogy incoherent. Uncharted? Filler. Assassin's Creed? See GoW above. Batman Arkham? Most don't even bother counting Origins let alone Blackgate. Metal Gear? Hell I think 3 of its handheld entries are straight up non-canon, only Peace Walker is a factor to MGS5 but even that is probably minor in scope compared to KH.

& no one, no one, has ever made a wannabe facebook game absolutely essential to understanding their upcoming $50 million 8th gen console blockbuster.



Uh, no. None of those are "necessary" because they could've gone with completely different plotlines altogether. We could've simply not had a Xion at all, not had some hidden agenda or even any further role for Axel & Saix.



Xehanort's return could be explained in KH3 itself. You know, like how most sequels are generally written. Why so many Disney bosses? IDK, why frickin' 7 vs. 13 to begin with? BBS showed it took 2 halves of ONE heart to make the X-Blade appear & then DDD changes it to 20 hearts being required? Drop DDD from canon & there is no need for another org. Maleficent could similarly have her presence explained within KH3 instead of a handheld title. She didn't get revived in CoM afterall.

Strictly speaking, the only story KH3 "needed" is as follows:

-Xehanort comes back as a whole person, which is explained within KH3 itself
-Maleficent is back, again explained in KH3 itself
-Evil plans, Bwah ha ha
-Bunch of Disney worlds
-Final world, kill Xehanort for good.
-end credits, cheesy bilingual pop song

That's the bare minimum. Everything else on top of that what Nomura choose to add on top of that. & it is IMO that he choose poorly what to go with.
So much to agree with here. I dont mind a little deeper stuff or some complicated webs but Nomura has just layered it on to the point it's not fun nor entertaining to decipher it.

Regardless of going in half-cocked, it worked out in the end. They've gone through enough trial and error to not only create a better III than we would have gotten, the next saga should not suffer from the same issues.

That remains to be seen. Whether KH3 will actually do better or whether the next set after will. I'm not giving any expectations for either. Issues with convolution and writing haven't been fixed yet and I doubt they ever will be. (unless they hire shiro amano which will be prayers answered)
 

Chuman

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@incognito_ a new voice director for English would help too

after the xehanort arc, I'm hoping the next saga focuses on light. The whole series up to this point has talked about the evils of darkness but nothing about light. Of course, light hasn't shown the same corrupting effects as darkness, but I am sick of this dark-centric storyline. I get it can corrupt people. We all do. Every goddamn piece of media has said the same thing time and time again, hell, evil has been referred to as darkness, but do something different. Have it revolve around the recession of '08. 9/11. The titanic. Holocaust, hurricane Katrina. I'll take anything.
 

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@incognito_ a new voice director for English would help too

after the xehanort arc, I'm hoping the next saga focuses on light. The whole series up to this point has talked about the evils of darkness but nothing about light. Of course, light hasn't shown the same corrupting effects as darkness, but I am sick of this dark-centric storyline. I get it can corrupt people. We all do. Every goddamn piece of media has said the same thing time and time again, hell, evil has been referred to as darkness, but do something different. Have it revolve around the recession of '08. 9/11. The titanic. Holocaust, hurricane Katrina. I'll take anything.

Ill jump on that bandwagon. I'm no avid player but I know a few Final Fantasy games touch on the subject or at least acknowledge it. Like 3 having "warriors of darkness" and the lore that light and dark take turns in going wild.

Hell I'd even settle for a "chaos" element (plot element) in the series. Like for instance there is a force that just represents chaos. Not darkness but not light but just the utter disruption of order. Acknowledging dark as part of that order as well.
A force outside the two and far more dangerous.
 

Blackdrazon

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Ill jump on that bandwagon. I'm no avid player but I know a few Final Fantasy games touch on the subject or at least acknowledge it. Like 3 having "warriors of darkness" and the lore that light and dark take turns in going wild.

Hell I'd even settle for a "chaos" element (plot element) in the series. Like for instance there is a force that just represents chaos. Not darkness but not light but just the utter disruption of order. Acknowledging dark as part of that order as well.
A force outside the two and far more dangerous.

Kingdom Hearts seems to draw many of its Light and Dark storyline elements from poor forgotten FFIII, which is part of the problem: FFIII only addresses the Warriors, World, Cloud and Crystals of Darkness in its last half hour. You do a lot of dancing around in the remnants of the Evil Empire of Light, but you don't hear near enough about them. It's got a sort of Lord of the Rings feeling to it: there's probably a deep story back here, but without a copy of the Silmarilion, you don't get to learn enough about it to understand.

Dimensions is probably the only game that really focuses on Warriors of Darkness, but I've been busy and haven't been able to play enough to say if it's an interesting story.

I've tried to read the evils of Light into the backstory of Enix's Soul Blazer trilogy, but other fans have never seemed amicable to that.


You certainly could go into a Chaos angle. Final Fantasy's "Void" or even Chaos himself. Chaos has been the final boss of so many FF games, I wouldn't be surprised if they pulled him out again. But it does seem sort of like DBZ-style escalation for escalation's sake, I think I'd rather the series calm down!
 

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Kingdom Hearts seems to draw many of its Light and Dark storyline elements from poor forgotten FFIII, which is part of the problem: FFIII only addresses the Warriors, World, Cloud and Crystals of Darkness in its last half hour. You do a lot of dancing around in the remnants of the Evil Empire of Light, but you don't hear near enough about them. It's got a sort of Lord of the Rings feeling to it: there's probably a deep story back here, but without a copy of the Silmarilion, you don't get to learn enough about it to understand.

Dimensions is probably the only game that really focuses on Warriors of Darkness, but I've been busy and haven't been able to play enough to say if it's an interesting story.

I've tried to read the evils of Light into the backstory of Enix's Soul Blazer trilogy, but other fans have never seemed amicable to that.


You certainly could go into a Chaos angle (Final Fantasy's "Void" or Chaos himself) but frankly that sounds like some typical DBZ escalation for escalation's sake, and I'd rather the series calm down.
I didn't think it delved into it much but at least it acknowledges the subject. It is a shame they have never delved deeper into the concept in other Final Fantasy games. It is an even bigger shame they haven't with Kingdom Hearts which it revolves almost entirely around those two concepts.
 

Blackdrazon

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I didn't think it delved into it much but at least it acknowledges the subject. It is a shame they have never delved deeper into the concept in other Final Fantasy games. It is an even bigger shame they haven't with Kingdom Hearts which it revolves almost entirely around those two concepts.

Yeah, I definitely agree it's time to explore it, one way or another. If there's anything Kingdom Hearts does best, it's to stress test its own old conclusions by turning them on their heads!
 

billyzanesucks

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I don't see what "chaos" would offer that hasn't been done - or couldn't be done - with "darkness." Darkness is destruction. I think "chaos" would just be an infinite state of destruction.
 

Smithee

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@incognito_ a new voice director for English would help too

after the xehanort arc, I'm hoping the next saga focuses on light. The whole series up to this point has talked about the evils of darkness but nothing about light. Of course, light hasn't shown the same corrupting effects as darkness, but I am sick of this dark-centric storyline. I get it can corrupt people. We all do. Every goddamn piece of media has said the same thing time and time again, hell, evil has been referred to as darkness, but do something different. Have it revolve around the recession of '08. 9/11. The titanic. Holocaust, hurricane Katrina. I'll take anything.

Exactly.

We're told Darkness isn't truly bad, but we're shown it being bad time and time again---and those who try to use it for good suffer badly in the process.

Actions speak louder than words, Nomura.
 

Sephiroth0812

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We're told Darkness isn't truly bad, but we're shown it being bad time and time again---and those who try to use it for good suffer badly in the process.

What we are really shown is that people using/coming in contact with Darkness are either incapable to handle it and because of that do bad things or because of people misusing it willingly that it comes over as bad.

So far I do not remember anyone in the series actively trying to use Darkness for good in the series and suffering for it. People are either embracing the Darkness to wreck shit left and right (like Xehanort, Vanitas, Maleficent & co.), keeping it under control in order to avert its negative properties (what Riku does after some experience with it and what Mickey seems also be capable of) or actively shunning it/trying to destroy it out of fear (Aqua, Terra, Eraqus).
There's no one who goes and says "I want to help people by using Darkness."

Nitroglycerine or TNT also isn't truly bad in itself, but idiots not knowing what the substance can do are dangerous when taking some of it as well as those who know what its bad effects can be and deliberately use it to cause damage.
 

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"Nothing is good nor evil. Thinking makes it so"
There's really no way to deny this fact here. Every instance of darkness being bad is an example of a person using it badly. It's honestly more true to say that darkness+people are bad because most people that give into its influence do it haphazardly.

Riku was the only one shown to learn from his addiction to darkness. Unlike the other villains he accepted the fact it's there, that it can't be made to go away and that it needs light to balance it.

If you think about it "light+people" is a bad thing as well because people's greed or zealousness for light spawn darkness. People warp them both.
 

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@sephiroth0812 didn't terra try to use it for good? To defeat master xehanort? And if not for his heart-transferring ability of xehanort he would have succeeded. He was showing the will to use it for his friend's benefit rather than his own.
 

Sephiroth0812

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"Nothing is good nor evil. Thinking makes it so"
There's really no way to deny this fact here. Every instance of darkness being bad is an example of a person using it badly. It's honestly more true to say that darkness+people are bad because most people that give into its influence do it haphazardly.

Riku was the only one shown to learn from his addiction to darkness. Unlike the other villains he accepted the fact it's there, that it can't be made to go away and that it needs light to balance it.

If you think about it "light+people" is a bad thing as well because people's greed or zealousness for light spawn darkness. People warp them both.

Correct, it's the influence (both bad and good) of sentient beings that defines "good and evil".
I'd describe it more like people delving into the darkness being carried away with the fast and easy power it gives, losing all restraint in the process and thus becoming the "monsters/abominations" we see wreaking havoc on the universe. Darkness is ultimatively as neutral as Light, but wild and unkempt. It doesn't have any natural limiters or borders. The sentient being using Darkness needs to set up these limiters and borders by his/herself. This last part is what 9 out of 10 Darkness users fail to do (or don't want to do because of their greed and/or ambitions) and what gives Darkness not only its infamous reputation but also the widespread fear people have about it because they are insecure if they would be able to set such limiters for themselves.

Indeed, although Riku did have some outside help in reaching these conclusions by both Mickey and Naminé. Most of the true villains do also accept that it's there, but see no need to balance it out with anything because they perceive it as the ultimate power to reach their goals.

Yes, as this greed originates from wanting to "own" or "control" the light comes from within the people themselves, it was not planted there by either Light of Darkness.
As I pointed out in another thread, according to the legends/fairytales Light was originally a gift given to all sentient beings that was meant to be accepted as something natural that is just there, not a power to be used or wielded. It was when people started to see the Light as something more and craved it as a source for the increase of personal power that things went to hell.

Even in the current universe, why are hearts of pure light (regardless if natural or artificial) held in such high regard and so sought after like they're some precious gems or some treasure, often disregarding the person who this heart actually belongs to?
Even did display quite an interest for Ven's heart in BBS for example, or Maleficent states in Chain of Memories that she needs "bright hearts" to work her dark magic:
Maleficent said:
My dark magic requires hearts of utmost beauty.
...
Don't you realize why I am telling you all this? Did you think it
was out of kindness? I did it to erase your doubts. Now your heart is beginning
to shine with love for Belle.
I shall have your heart, too, monster!
She even resorts to trying to claim the Beast's heart after nurturing the light inside of it.
This leads to the assumption that hearts full of light (they do not even need to be entirely pure) are often seen as some gateway to achieve some great power, so the greed for "pure light" is still present somewhat within the populace itself.

@sephiroth0812 didn't terra try to use it for good? To defeat master xehanort? And if not for his heart-transferring ability of xehanort he would have succeeded. He was showing the will to use it for his friend's benefit rather than his own.

Terra wasn't consciously using the Darkness, he was going out of control and berserk, letting himself being controlled by his own Darkness, lacking exactly the foresight, caution and fortitude to handle it that was mentioned earlier. It was the same situation as in the Braig-fight when he lost control of himself and blasted Braig's face.

His first and primary intention was to attack Xehanort out of anger and hatred.
If Terra could have had it his way, he would not use Darkness at all because he hates it.
He admits to Aqua before the battle starts that he went astray, but the reasons why he went astray escape both him and Aqua.
That is the big error that one can hold against Eraqus, as the way he teached to handle ones own Darkness (by suppressing and denying it) doesn't work with people who have a natural affinity for it.

Contrast to this Riku's reaction in Dream Drop Distance when he confronted Ansem again.
Just like Terra had with Aqua and Ven, Riku also knew that Sora was in dire danger.
Ansem goaded him to "set his Darkness free" to rescue his friend just like MX goaded Terra, but Riku kept his calm and didn't fall for it, going into the fight against Ansem with clear mind and a plan to follow.
Riku comes to the conclusion to take the Darkness on, and in his own words: "Consume it and return it to Light".
This is a conclusion is the correct one, but one Terra could not come to by himself because his upbringing was vastly different.
Aqua against Ventus-Vanitas is also similar.
Yes, she is angry, even pissed at Vanitas for taking Ven's heart, but she doesn't let that anger dictate her actions.
 

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Riku comes to the conclusion to take the Darkness on, and in his own words: "Consume it and return it to Light".

And that line right there bit the series in the @$$ hard, IMO.

Riku essentially said his Darkness was only "good" because he used his Light to tame it, despite COM and KH2 making such a big deal about Darkness and Light being more like neutral forces (just like you said).
 

roxasven

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My biggest issue with the series has always been the unnecessary rehashing of KH in every game. First visits just rehash the first game/movie instead of bringing something interesting to the plot. In general, the plot line at this point is convoluted. I was trying to explain to my friend the timeline and the hows/whys and I was getting myself mixed up. There is so much overlap and retconning that it's hard to know what's what anymore.

It's hard not to agree with everything mentioned above, but I still love the series despite its many faults.
 

billyzanesucks

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And that line right there bit the series in the @$$ hard, IMO.

Riku essentially said his Darkness was only "good" because he used his Light to tame it, despite COM and KH2 making such a big deal about Darkness and Light being more like neutral forces (just like you said).
They are morally neutral because they are simply forces. Darkness is basically destruction and chaos. Without a good amount of light to balance it out, you could lose direction and self-control.
 
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