The workings of the Heart, Body and Soul/Mind?

[Master Exin]

Warning: This thread is merely speculation, if I made any errors or so, just let me know and I'll try to fix it.

In the lore/mythos of Kingdom Hearts, a complete person is comprised of three metaphysical parts: the Heart, Body and Soul/Mind. The Heart is made from one's light, darkness, emotions, feelings, desires, etc; The Body is just that, a body, a vessel if you will; and the Soul/Mind gives the Heart & Body life and the will to live.

If a person succumbs to either their inner darkness or a darkness from elsewhere, the Heart would most likely split from the Body & Soul/Mind and manifests into what's called a Heartless, while the Body & Soul (if their will is strong enough) deform into a Nobody. A Heartless (like those of Terranort and Scar from TLK) and/or a Nobody (such as the member os Organisation XIII) can retain a form similar to their original depending on either their will or how they specifically came to be.

Below is my idea of what the splitting of either three parts may result in:

• Heart, Body and Soul/Mind = Complete person
• Heart = Heartless / Body and Soul/Mind = Nobody
• Body = Empty shell/dead / Heart and Soul/Mind = Spirit?
• Soul/Mind = Dead / Heart and Body = Undead?/Soulless?

So my question's (or questions are) simple; if a Heart seperating from the Body & Soul/Mind results in respectively creating a Heartless, what if a person's Heart & Soul/Mind are removed from their Body? What kinds of beings would these result in producing?
Please feel free to express your theories and ideas in the comments below. Thank you.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

If you remove the heart and the soul, the body just die. The heart could become a Heartless if it was forced away with the proper means, the soul... vanishes into Nothingness, waiting for the heart to join the body, I guess.
Such must've been the fate of those who had a Heartless but weren't strong enough to giver birth to a Nobody.

A couple of corrections, or at least mentions:

The only record of just having the soul detatched from body and heart (in fact, you might wanna rewrite your last paragraph about this, they don't create ghosts) is the Lingering Will, just the soul moving an armour. Of course, it could only be a skill available to Keyblade wielders.
Ansem the Wise then writes this about soul leaving the body: "When the soul leaves the body, its vessel, life gives way to death"

So, my take is either Terra was a special case due to Xehanort's possession, or the Lingering Will is a Keyblade's special skill. Either way, it's implied a normal person dies without a soul.

In DDD, the time travelling characters left their body behind, so they're heart and soul.

Also due to dubious canonicity, it is unclear what Vanitas' Sentiment and the Organization's silhouettes are.

 

[BlackOsprey]

Basically if you remove the soul from the body, you got a normal dead person.

Think of the soul as a battery. Its existence is the only difference between the living and the dead. When that stuff runs out, the body dies- it doesn't "fade" or reappear in another realm, it dies permanently, old-style. A heart's existence is completely independent of either of these, but if it's severed from a living body of any sort, after a while, the heart (probably) returns from its source, Kingdom Hearts.

 

[Hirokey123]

If you remove the heart and the soul, the body just die. The heart could become a Heartless if it was forced away with the proper means, the soul... vanishes into Nothingness, waiting for the heart to join the body, I guess.
Such must've been the fate of those who had a Heartless but weren't strong enough to giver birth to a Nobody.

A couple of corrections, or at least mentions:

The only record of just having the soul detatched from body and heart (in fact, you might wanna rewrite your last paragraph about this, they don't create ghosts) is the Lingering Will, just the soul moving an armour. Of course, it could only be a skill available to Keyblade wielders.
Ansem the Wise then writes this about soul leaving the body: "When the soul leaves the body, its vessel, life gives way to death"

So, my take is either Terra was a special case due to Xehanort's possession, or the Lingering Will is a Keyblade's special skill. Either way, it's implied a normal person dies without a soul.

In DDD, the time travelling characters left their body behind, so they're heart and soul.

Also due to dubious canonicity, it is unclear what Vanitas' Sentiment and the Organization's silhouettes are.

This is not entirely correct actually...

1. Lingering Will is as it's name said "Will" Terra's soul remained in his body and was fueling the life of Terranort, Apprentice Xehanort, and Xemnas granted we don't know the current state of Terra's body and soul. Lingering Will is as the name implies the physical manifestation of Terra's will. It's his thoughts at the time focused into the armor bringing it to life, think of it like a snapshot of Terra's mind frozen at that point of time. Another case of this is when Ven's Will to protect Sora manifested as Ven's armor then was later overrode by the darkness of sleep being reborn as a Nightmare whose job became to keep Sora imprisoned rather than keep him protected. It's also quite possible that Aqua made a much weaker Lingering Will of her own when she separated her physical self from her armor and commanded it to carry Terranort out of the darkness where in it fell apart.

2. None of the Norts there shed their bodies they are all the complete package, AnsemSoD robe existence was specifically to allow that to be possible. AnsemSoD shed his body to gain the power to transcend time and then he was able to share this power with the other norts because they are all "him" much in the way Sora, Roxas, and Xion all share power. Allowing them to time travel so that they wouldn't need to give up their bodies. Furthermore the only one to actually receive the power from AnsemSoD was Young Xehanort the rest of the Norts were picked up by YX and merely brought along for the ride, they themselves couldn't traverse time and had to be brought in and out of it by YX. Thanks to all this the only nort without a body was AnsemSoD but that's why he stole Riku's body and got picked up sometime after that but before his destruction.

 

[BlackOsprey]

I feel like we should also probably elaborate on the "complete person - heart = Nobody" thing too. It's not enough to simply "remove" the heart from a body. A Nobody is born specifically from a being whose heart was corrupted by and lost to the darkness- in other words, turned into a Heartless, either by miring itself in darkness for too long or by getting forcibly ripped out by another Heartless.

Without the darkness corruption bit, you're left with cases like Ventus or KH1 Kairi: a body with a soul, but trapped in a deep coma indefinitely.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

This is not entirely correct actually...

1. Lingering Will is as it's name said "Will" Terra's soul remained in his body and was fueling the life of Terranort, Apprentice Xehanort, and Xemnas granted we don't know the current state of Terra's body and soul. Lingering Will is as the name implies the physical manifestation of Terra's will. It's his thoughts at the time focused into the armor bringing it to life, think of it like a snapshot of Terra's mind frozen at that point of time. Another case of this is when Ven's Will to protect Sora manifested as Ven's armor then was later overrode by the darkness of sleep being reborn as a Nightmare whose job became to keep Sora imprisoned rather than keep him protected. It's also quite possible that Aqua made a much weaker Lingering Will of her own when she separated her physical self from her armor and commanded it to carry Terranort out of the darkness where in it fell apart.

2. None of the Norts there shed their bodies they are all the complete package, AnsemSoD robe existence was specifically to allow that to be possible. AnsemSoD shed his body to gain the power to transcend time and then he was able to share this power with the other norts because they are all "him" much in the way Sora, Roxas, and Xion all share power. Allowing them to time travel so that they wouldn't need to give up their bodies. Furthermore the only one to actually receive the power from AnsemSoD was Young Xehanort the rest of the Norts were picked up by YX and merely brought along for the ride, they themselves couldn't traverse time and had to be brought in and out of it by YX. Thanks to all this the only nort without a body was AnsemSoD but that's why he stole Riku's body and got picked up sometime after that but before his destruction.

1) Yes, and as Xehanort stated, Terra's body and heart weren't the cause, but his mind. "Will" is but another way to say "Soul", in Kingdom Hearts terms.
As for Terra's soul being in Terranort... I don't think so. Xehanort was there so that Terranort could live.
Same with LW being Terra's thoughts frozen in time: it showed in both KH II and the special with Naminé that it can converse and learn, meaning there's something much more concrete in there.
I don't see where I'm wrong.

2) I don't recall anywhere in the game stating that Young Xehanort or any other nort were excluded to leave their bodies for travelling: as far as we know and as time travelling rules dictate, Young Xehanort, Sora and Riku don't have their bodies when in the Exam.
Even if Young Xehanort was excluded from doing so I don't see how Sora and Riku could ditch that rule.

 

[Hirokey123]

1) No...it isn't in the slightest show me one time Soul=Mind in this series. Soul is the spark of life while mind/thoughts are the things formed via memories and emotions aka the heart. You can have a mind and have no soul, the soul is just as said the battery for the physical body without it it's true death. The mind is tied to the heart which is why when people lose their hearts they fall into comas, and only wake up if they have a strong enough will. Even then if memories don't transfer the Nobody will wake up a mindless zombie. Xehanort's soul is in Xehanort's old body which is currently busy being Old Master Xehanort reborn as of DDD. Frozen in time in the sense that it's Terra's mind at that point it can communicate but it doesn't age or grow, it doesn't even move from that world. It's just armor filled with thoughts it festers on, its aware of the passage of time but all that does it make it angry. It's who Terra would be if after BBS he sat in a single spot and just festered on the same collection of thoughts for last 10 or so years.

2) In-game it's stated "He gave up his bodily form to send me on my way" but if that isn't enough for you Nomura said so and here are the interview pieces.

First off, when Young Xehanort made contact with the Robed Figure–that is to say, the Xehanort who called himself Ansem–his abilities were transferred to him. As a result of Master Xehanort tossing his physical body away, he was able to transcend time, and this power was carried into the Robed Figure. Thus when Young Xehanort made contact with him, he gained this power. Possessing this power, Young Xehanort functioned as a “Portal” which summoned Xemnas and Ansem each time they appeared. That’s why Young Xehanort was there whenever they were. Additionally, when Sora and Riku dropped into the Sleeping Worlds, simultaneously Young Xehanort himself goes into the worlds of sleep.

Just as it says in the story, to transcend time one must “first” discard their body. As a result of the actions of the Robed Figure, they all were in a state where they had gained the power to transcend time. The Robed Figure explains these facts. The thirteen were summoned at the same time, this time thanks to the Young Xehanort who borrowed that power. However, apart from Young Xehanort, that does not mean that all the members left their own time.

Also yes Sora and Riku do have their bodies in fact Xehanort's entire plot hinges on them having bodies to steal. The only reason they look like they do is because Yensid cast a spell to revert them to an earlier age and the spell would break only when they return to tower. The body shedding rule only applies if you personally want the power to move across time at will. But if you just need to be sent backwards/forwards then you need only the help of someone who already has that power. Be it Merlin, Yensid, or in DDD's case YX whose power was on loan from AnsemSoD.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I feel like we should also probably elaborate on the "complete person - heart = Nobody" thing too. It's not enough to simply "remove" the heart from a body. A Nobody is born specifically from a being whose heart was corrupted by and lost to the darkness- in other words, turned into a Heartless, either by miring itself in darkness for too long or by getting forcibly ripped out by another Heartless.

Without the darkness corruption bit, you're left with cases like Ventus or KH1 Kairi: a body with a soul, but trapped in a deep coma indefinitely.

Completely correct.
To add further onto it as this is also often forgotten/misinterpreted:
Only people with exceptionally strong hearts actually DO create a Nobody, and of those only the very strongest create actually human-shaped Nobodies.

Compared to Heartless Nobodies are thus actually rather rare in terms of overall numbers.

The default case is a heart being lost to Darkness and then the creation of a Heartless only.
Not every person who loses his/her heart to Darkness automatically creates a Nobody!!!

---

There is still the misconception around that Terra's actual soul is in the Lingering Will?
0_o

Yea no, that is completely impossible as Terra's body would be dead, DEAD as in dust and unusable anymore.
And no, Xehanort did not transfer his sould into Terra's body, he transferred his heart.

Many of the functions that we ordinarily assign to the soul in Real Life and other fantasy stories are tied to the heart in the KH-verse and not the soul.

Forget the soul, in the KH-verse it is just a battery-package strapped to the body that doesn't do anything else but provide life energy to the body.
Once the souls energy is depleted, the body dies, ending the physical presence of an individual in the waking world and the eternal heart with the memories, mind et cetera is the only thing that remains.

 

[Master Exin]

In a way, I'm glad you people were very rational and willing to help me expand my knowledge on KHlore, and still are. I thank you people with your constructive debates and discussions.

 

[BlackOsprey]

Completely correct.
To add further onto it as this is also often forgotten/misinterpreted:
Only people with exceptionally strong hearts actually DO create a Nobody, and of those only the very strongest create actually human-shaped Nobodies.

Compared to Heartless Nobodies are thus actually rather rare in terms of overall numbers.

The default case is a heart being lost to Darkness and then the creation of a Heartless only.
Not every person who loses his/her heart to Darkness automatically creates a Nobody!!!

---

There is still the misconception around that Terra's actual soul is in the Lingering Will?
0_o

Yea no, that is completely impossible as Terra's body would be dead, DEAD as in dust and unusable anymore.
And no, Xehanort did not transfer his sould into Terra's body, he transferred his heart.

Many of the functions that we ordinarily assign to the soul in Real Life and other fantasy stories are tied to the heart in the KH-verse and not the soul.

Forget the soul, in the KH-verse it is just a battery-package strapped to the body that doesn't do anything else but provide life energy to the body.
Once the souls energy is depleted, the body dies, ending the physical presence of an individual in the waking world and the eternal heart with the memories, mind et cetera is the only thing that remains.

... Oh. I just had a thought.

Alright, so as we've discussed, Nobodies are not simply a body and soul sans a heart. It requires two things: for the heart to be stolen by the darkness, and furthermore, the heart must be strong. There has to be more in the body besides the soul, or otherwise anyone would be able to create a Nobody.

The Nobodies work in a hierarchy- even the most measly Dusk seems to have some sort of proto-sentience to the point that they can communicate verbally and comprehend a caste system of sorts. Chances are the same thing that allows them to do these things is the same that allows them to be Nobodies in the first place: traces of their humanity. In the human-shaped Nobodies' cases, they have enough left behind that they retain all their memories, a strong sense of self, and human form.

So, here's the idea: when a heart gets hit by a sizable force of darkness, "impressions" of itself- memories, emotions, desires that made up a person's identity- are knocked out of the heart and into whatever vessel it's currently residing and stays to fill in the void. In the case of a Nobody, there's enough of these left behind to mix with the soul and animate the body in the heart's stead.

In the Lingering Will's case, Terra's heart was never actually lost, but it was still hit by a massive dark force. Memories, emotions, and desires that were the strongest at the very moment Terra's heart got "rattled" (all related towards his hatred towards Geezernort and his wish to beat the hell out of him) got slammed out, not into the body, since it was still occupied by a heart, but into the armor. Magic armor is magic and is animated even without a soul inside of it.

Yeah I'll stop rambling now.

 

[Chuman]

... Oh. I just had a thought.

Alright, so as we've discussed, Nobodies are not simply a body and soul sans a heart. It requires two things: for the heart to be stolen by the darkness, and furthermore, the heart must be strong. There has to be more in the body besides the soul, or otherwise anyone would be able to create a Nobody.

The Nobodies work in a hierarchy- even the most measly Dusk seems to have some sort of proto-sentience to the point that they can communicate verbally and comprehend a caste system of sorts. Chances are the same thing that allows them to do these things is the same that allows them to be Nobodies in the first place: traces of their humanity. In the human-shaped Nobodies' cases, they have enough left behind that they retain all their memories, a strong sense of self, and human form.

So, here's the idea: when a heart gets hit by a sizable force of darkness, "impressions" of itself- memories, emotions, desires that made up a person's identity- are knocked out of the heart and into whatever vessel it's currently residing and stays to fill in the void. In the case of a Nobody, there's enough of these left behind to mix with the soul and animate the body in the heart's stead.

In the Lingering Will's case, Terra's heart was never actually lost, but it was still hit by a massive dark force. Memories, emotions, and desires that were the strongest at the very moment Terra's heart got "rattled" (all related towards his hatred towards Geezernort and his wish to beat the hell out of him) got slammed out, not into the body, since it was still occupied by a heart, but into the armor. Magic armor is magic and is animated even without a soul inside of it.

Yeah I'll stop rambling now.

i'd like to add a quote from Xehanort after possessing Terra's body

Your body submits, your heart succumbs—so why does your mind resist?

this raises a question of where the mind fits in? the soul keeps the body alive, the body is the meatsuit that contains the heart and the heart is a person's being- considering Terra was with Xehanort in Blank Points and apparently can communicate with Aqua in the RoD in 0.2, what is the mind? is it part of the heart, and if so, is it just making a copy or "impression", like you said, into the empty mold of Terra's armor? a flawed copy of his being perhaps?

 

[BlackOsprey]

i'd like to add a quote from Xehanort after possessing Terra's body



this raises a question of where the mind fits in? the soul keeps the body alive, the body is the meatsuit that contains the heart and the heart is a person's being- considering Terra was with Xehanort in Blank Points and apparently can communicate with Aqua in the RoD in 0.2, what is the mind? is it part of the heart, and if so, is it just making a copy or "impression", like you said, into the empty mold of Terra's armor? a flawed copy of his being perhaps?

Ah yes. Xemnas also mentioned forcing the mind to "renounce its sense of self" during DDD. Some people would say that the mind is basically the exact same thing as the heart, but as you pointed out, it's odd that the series would bother to make a distinction between mind and heart.

In fact, with the revelation that Nobodies (the human-form ones at least) could be molded by their experiences, retained memories, and had a sense of self really raises the question of what's the difference between a true heart vs a collection of memories, a sense of self, and an ability to learn and change from outside forces. After all, all those things listed ARE the components of a heart...

...

Okay ideas time.

So, some jerk named Freud came up with a way to model human psyche, or mind. Simply put, it can be broken up into several pieces: ego, the sense of self; superego, the moral compass; and id, the basic impulses buried deep in the subconscious. Like this series' concept of the heart, all of these components can be shaped and influenced by memory and past experience.
I would say that in KH, the "mind" is exclusively the ego. The spark that can declare "I am me" and enables things like having a superego or conscious thought or any higher function beyond that of a basic pack animal.

That's probably the part that the lesser Nobodies lack the most. They got enough id rattled out that they can move and comprehend a caste system but not enough ego to form solid identities. Human-shaped ones either have more of it or their retained memories make up the difference- either way, it's enough that they can grow back whatever's not there and develop a full heart again.

Ok so what's up with the Lingering Will, since neither its creation nor behavior line up with a Nobody's? I figure it's powered by pure superego, the aspect that combines both conscious and unconscious thought and desire and directs it into internalized ideals. In this case, it's a one-track mind towards kicking Xehanort's ass for everything he's gone and ruined. Now, why did only that part get slammed into the armor? Heck if I know all the rules. This is all speculation anyways.

 

[Chuman]

Ah yes. Xemnas also mentioned forcing the mind to "renounce its sense of self" during DDD. Some people would say that the mind is basically the exact same thing as the heart, but as you pointed out, it's odd that the series would bother to make a distinction between mind and heart.

In fact, with the revelation that Nobodies (the human-form ones at least) could be molded by their experiences, retained memories, and had a sense of self really raises the question of what's the difference between a true heart vs a collection of memories, a sense of self, and an ability to learn and change from outside forces. After all, all those things listed ARE the components of a heart...

...

Okay ideas time.

So, some jerk named Freud came up with a way to model human psyche, or mind. Simply put, it can be broken up into several pieces: ego, the sense of self; superego, the moral compass; and id, the basic impulses buried deep in the subconscious. Like this series' concept of the heart, all of these components can be shaped and influenced by memory and past experience.
I would say that in KH, the "mind" is exclusively the ego. The spark that can declare "I am me" and enables things like having a superego or conscious thought or any higher function beyond that of a basic pack animal.

That's probably the part that the lesser Nobodies lack the most. They got enough id rattled out that they can move and comprehend a caste system but not enough ego to form solid identities. Human-shaped ones either have more of it or their retained memories make up the difference- either way, it's enough that they can grow back whatever's not there and develop a full heart again.

Ok so what's up with the Lingering Will, since neither its creation nor behavior line up with a Nobody's? I figure it's powered by pure superego, the aspect that combines both conscious and unconscious thought and desire and directs it into internalized ideals. In this case, it's a one-track mind towards kicking Xehanort's ass for everything he's gone and ruined. Now, why did only that part get slammed into the armor? Heck if I know all the rules. This is all speculation anyways.

i'm assuming that having his friends struck down, seeing his master murdered and his body being stolen from him kicked his mind into gear as a last resort. the reason he turned to darkness was because his anger was so strong, maybe that emotion seared itself into the armor and animated it.

another distinct possibility: in terra's ending, the Will kneeled and swore to ven and aqua he would set things right. how is this possible? perhaps a fragment of the heart remained within the armor, making terra "incomplete". hell, 0.2 shows him contacting aqua in the RoD so the idea of his consciousness shifting or being in two places at once isn't farfetched.