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The creation of Naminé and Roxas makes 0 sense. Please help me.



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LBJENmariposa

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How does Roxas exist if Naminé is already using Sora's body?

VENTUS' HEART STAYED IN "SORA'S BODY" BUT "SORA'S BODY" IS ALSO NAMINÉ AS WELL AS ROXAS, AND NAMINÉ SHOULD BE THE ONE THAT WAS CREATED FIRST ACCORDING TO THE CUTSCENE BUT NO ROXAS IS THE ONE THAT RECEIVES VENTUS' HEART, NOT NAMINÉ AND AAAAARGH HOW COME OUT OF ALL THE THINGS SHE COULD TAKE FROM VENTUS, SHE ONLY TAKES HIS BLONDE HAIR (EVEN THAT'S JUST A "MAAAAYBE") WHILE ROXAS TAKES VENTUS' ENTIRE APPEARANCE, ABILITY TO WIELD A KEYBLADE AND HIS HEART

AND HOW IN THE WORLD DOES BEING CREATED OUT OF SORA'S BODY AND KAIRI'S HEART EXPLAIN WHY YOU ARE ABLE TO MESS WITH SORA'S MEMORIES THAT DOESN'T EVEN MAKE SENSE THOSE ARE TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS

This is how it looks like it happened, BUT IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE ACCORDING TO THE LORE AND QUESTIONS AND I'M CONFUSED:
1. Sora stabs himself with a keyblade
2. This releases the hearts of Kairi and Ventus
3. Naminé is created using Sora's body and Kairi's heart, and may or may not be influenced by Ventus
4. Kairi's heart goes back to her body
5. Kairi wakes up
6. Sora's heart into a heartless
7. Sora's Nobody, Roxas, is created out of Sora's body
8. Ventus' heart stays with Roxas, influencing his appearance and giving him the ability to wield a keyblade
9. Xemnas takes Roxas away
10. Kairi uses her Princess Powers and turns Sora back into a person SOMEHOW

The only way I could see this making any sense is if it happened the following way, BUT IT CONTRADICTS THE CUTSCENE
SORA TAKES TOO LONG IN SLOW-MO FALLING TO THE GROUND THAT KAIRI IS ALREADY AWAKE AGH

ORDER B
1. Sora stabs himself with a keyblade
2. This releases the hearts of Kairi and Ventus
3. Sora's Nobody, Roxas, is created out of Sora's body
4. Ventus' heart stays with Roxas, influencing his appearance and giving him the ability to wield a keyblade
5. Sora's heart into a heartless
6. Naminé is created using Roxas and Kairi's heart, not influenced by Ventus so she can't wield a keyblade, and she's blonde because of ROXAS
7. Kairi's heart goes back to her body
8. Kairi wakes up
9. Xemnas takes Roxas away
10. Kairi uses her Princess Powers and turns Sora back into a person... SOMEHOW.

hOW DOES IT WORK SOMEONE PLEASE HELP
 

Idreamaboutcats

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What is this, Roxas and Naminé week? I swear, every post I see lately has been those two, mostly Naminé (not that I mind, I just find it odd).

It’s the other way around. It’s Roxas using Sora’s body. Naminé is the one who has no foundation of existence.

Ignoring the all-caps because it looks intimidating.
Most of the list looks correct so far, though number 3 is up for debate. Order B is just…strange. It doesn’t make sense because at that time Roxas doesn’t have a heart. He’s just too new and recently “born.”

One thing to remember, unlike most Nobodies, it seems Naminé came to be in Castle Oblivion and not Twilight Town.
 

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How does Roxas exist if Naminé is already using Sora's body?

VENTUS' HEART STAYED IN "SORA'S BODY" BUT "SORA'S BODY" IS ALSO NAMINÉ AS WELL AS ROXAS, AND NAMINÉ SHOULD BE THE ONE THAT WAS CREATED FIRST ACCORDING TO THE CUTSCENE BUT NO ROXAS IS THE ONE THAT RECEIVES VENTUS' HEART, NOT NAMINÉ AND AAAAARGH HOW COME OUT OF ALL THE THINGS SHE COULD TAKE FROM VENTUS, SHE ONLY TAKES HIS BLONDE HAIR (EVEN THAT'S JUST A "MAAAAYBE") WHILE ROXAS TAKES VENTUS' ENTIRE APPEARANCE, ABILITY TO WIELD A KEYBLADE AND HIS HEART

AND HOW IN THE WORLD DOES BEING CREATED OUT OF SORA'S BODY AND KAIRI'S HEART EXPLAIN WHY YOU ARE ABLE TO MESS WITH SORA'S MEMORIES THAT DOESN'T EVEN MAKE SENSE THOSE ARE TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS

This is how it looks like it happened, BUT IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE ACCORDING TO THE LORE AND QUESTIONS AND I'M CONFUSED:
1. Sora stabs himself with a keyblade
2. This releases the hearts of Kairi and Ventus
3. Naminé is created using Sora's body and Kairi's heart, and may or may not be influenced by Ventus
4. Kairi's heart goes back to her body
5. Kairi wakes up
6. Sora's heart into a heartless
7. Sora's Nobody, Roxas, is created out of Sora's body
8. Ventus' heart stays with Roxas, influencing his appearance and giving him the ability to wield a keyblade
9. Xemnas takes Roxas away
10. Kairi uses her Princess Powers and turns Sora back into a person SOMEHOW

The only way I could see this making any sense is if it happened the following way, BUT IT CONTRADICTS THE CUTSCENE
SORA TAKES TOO LONG IN SLOW-MO FALLING TO THE GROUND THAT KAIRI IS ALREADY AWAKE AGH

ORDER B
1. Sora stabs himself with a keyblade
2. This releases the hearts of Kairi and Ventus
3. Sora's Nobody, Roxas, is created out of Sora's body
4. Ventus' heart stays with Roxas, influencing his appearance and giving him the ability to wield a keyblade
5. Sora's heart into a heartless
6. Naminé is created using Roxas and Kairi's heart, not influenced by Ventus so she can't wield a keyblade, and she's blonde because of ROXAS
7. Kairi's heart goes back to her body
8. Kairi wakes up
9. Xemnas takes Roxas away
10. Kairi uses her Princess Powers and turns Sora back into a person... SOMEHOW.

hOW DOES IT WORK SOMEONE PLEASE HELP
Well, from my understanding:

- Namine and Roxas were created at the same time when Sora stabbed himself in Hollow Bastion.

- Namine was born using Sora's body and soul, but Kairi's heart. Namine wasn't created when Kairi's heart left her body on Destiny Islands because she is a being of pure light, so her heart/body cannot succumb to darkness, hence no heartless was created and her body just stayed lifeless. The term "special nobody" is used for Namine to explain her existence since...

- Roxas was born from Sora's heart and uses Sora's body. Sora is actually just a heart from the time he is saved by Kairi in Hollow Bastion until the start of KH2 when he recombines with Roxas. Kairi's powers of light were able to pull Sora's heart from darkness and return him to his normal state, however he didn't actually have his "body". His looks and dual-wielding are because Sora's heart is "linked to Ven's".

The only real mystery to me is Namine, but the "special nobody" thing has been used as an explanation for over a decade, so I don't think there will ever be a concrete answer. I can get behind it though because it is a very unique situation. Ansem The Wise actually stated in one of the reports that she is unusual because she doesn't possess the body or memories that a nobody normally has. This probably explains why she reunites with Kairi only, because if she did possess part of Sora's "body", wouldn't she need to give it back to him?
 

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Namine used the barest fragment of Sora's body and like the essence of Kairi's heart. She honestly barely constitutes being labeled a "Nobody" considering her unique birth, which is why she is labeled a "special Nobody" by DiZ.

Roxas is Sora's body. Without Sora's memories and with Ven's dormant heart sleeping inside of the body, Sora's body changed to look like Ven. Sora's memories did not go into the body like they normally would because he only remained a Heartless for a brief period of time.
 

*TwilightNight*

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The hearts Sora released with the key were his and Kairi's, not Ven's. So part 2 is already inaccurate.

Naminè is a walking, talking ghost of Kairi made solid, nothing more, nothing less. Born from her heart once Sora released it. She's less than a Nobody. Nomura even referred to her in the past as a subspecies.

Sora's body was an intermediary (i.e. a mediator, a go-between) for her to exist in the sense that he made it capable for her to gain physicality -- physical form in simple terms. But unlike what some like to believe (and want to believe), she possesses no part or biological fragment of Sora. It's not literal.

To summarize, Naminè is Kairi's ghost/shadow born of her Heart. With Sora's body as a mediator, he helped her be capable of taking her own physical form. She didn't actually inherit or take Sora's body, not one piece of it. She's by and by, a freak of nature.

She isn't at all affected by Ven (who the hell even said this, that's highly fanon).

----

Roxas is Sora's discarded body (now THIS you can take literally), born of his Heart once he released it, but influenced visually by the Heart of Ventus since he was taking residence there [again, retcon]. He's legit Sora's Nobody.

And someone already explained Kairi's magic wand event.

This probably explains why she reunites with Kairi only, because if she did possess part of Sora's "body", wouldn't she need to give it back to him?
Precisely.

She didn't give anything back to him, whatsoever, and solely, 100%, returned to Kairi. Even touching her destabilized her existence, as we see when they run together. This didn't occur when she pinky promised with Sora in CoM.

It'll make no sense for her to have any Sora when the other two Soras had to give up their lives so he can recover his missing components.





EDIT:

3: Is it possible that Roxas has a heart?
It is thought that it could be Ventus’s heart. In KHIIFM there were clues to him having a heart, and in Days we saw Roxas crying—proof that he could have a heart. As was said in Q1, he has taken a lot of himself from Ventus. But perhaps when Sora and Roxas were separated, Ventus’s heart stayed in Roxas?
So yeah, Roxas took Ven's Heart with him as he took Sora's body as his vessel (like a Nobody). At one point that means Roxas housed two Hearts once he began developing his own.

Nomura 🙄.
 
Last edited:

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Just to add on further to what Twilight already said, the answer to everything else that might felt unswared to you is simply: Kairi is a Princess of Heart. A being with a heart made of pure Light and the full extent of her powers is yet unknow as no one really bothered to explain them whatsoever besides the fact that they are "special".

It can be assumed that everything weird about the birth of those two like Naminé existing without an actual body, Sora existing in the same way through the ending of KH1 and CoM before he reclaims his actual body, as well as Naminé's weird powers are all because of that.

Maybe Melody of Memory will finally give us a proper explanation on how that whole thing works out, since it's supposed to give Kairi's backstory (or at least start that plot), but considering the Princesses of Heart are still a thing on the franchise by KH3, who knows when this will be answered lol
 

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The best and simplest way to think of Naminé is that, even though she's technically classified as a Nobody for convenience, think of her as like Kairi's Heartless, since she was born of Kairi's heart leaving Sora's body. Normally, this would result in the creation of a Heartless, but since Kairi's heart is void of darkness, what results is the creation of a pseudo-Nobody. In a sense, it might be more accurate to say that Namine is more like Kairi's spectre than her Nobody, and that her disembodied heart created its own manifestation of her (I assume using her Princess of Heart powers, flaunting the normal rules of nature—for, under normal circumstances, even considering that Kairi's heart is pure, the fact that her heart went straight from Sora back to Kairi would seem to preclude the creation of a Nobody, but Kairi's powers might have circumvented this and broken the laws of nature to basically create a pseudo-Nobody out of thin air without an empty vessel needing to exist), and this Kairi-spectre mixed very slightly with some of Sora's identity (since her heart was released from his body and their memories became intertwined during their time together) to create an entity altogether new.
 

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I always figured it was like a "glitch" in the process of making a Nobody. Nobodies are essentially backups of those who have lost their hearts to darkness (or had their heart released from their body).

I personally believe all Nobodies are born with a fledgling heart that holds their memories, an over time that fledgling heart grows into a true heart instead of just a copy. So with the release of two hearts from one body, it'd make sense for whatever magic that creates Nobodies to make two fledgling hearts. One used Sora's body as a vessel, and the other became Namine in a similar process to how Sora regained a human form despite only being a heart.
 

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The best and simplest way to think of Naminé is that, even though she's technically classified as a Nobody for convenience, think of her as like Kairi's Heartless, since she was born of Kairi's heart leaving Sora's body. Normally, this would result in the creation of a Heartless, but since Kairi's heart is void of darkness, what results is the creation of a pseudo-Nobody. In a sense, it might be more accurate to say that Namine is more like Kairi's spectre than her Nobody, and that her disembodied heart created its own manifestation of her (I assume using her Princess of Heart powers, flaunting the normal rules of nature—for, under normal circumstances, even considering that Kairi's heart is pure, the fact that her heart went straight from Sora back to Kairi would seem to preclude the creation of a Nobody, but Kairi's powers might have circumvented this and broken the laws of nature to basically create a pseudo-Nobody out of thin air without an empty vessel needing to exist), and this Kairi-spectre mixed very slightly with some of Sora's identity (since her heart was released from his body and their memories became intertwined during their time together) to create an entity altogether new.
This.

Although to be honest right now none of that matters since they’re human now. Well…living dolls at least.

Apparently, they also get to keep their powers. Xion and Roxas get to keep their keyblades, with Roxas’ double-wielding because of a glitch from having two sets of memories (the original one and his life in data Twilight Town). Naminé is implied to have kept hers as well, and is probing Roxas and Xion in Twilight Town for leads to find Sora.
 

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Naminé doesn't use Sora's body. She's Kairi's Nobody.
But because she doesn't use Kairi's body either, she's only identifiable as a Nobody by the process of her birth.
This is why Ansem the Wise opts to refer to her as an "alter ego" in the Secret Ansem Reports. 'Cause she isn't quite a Nobody.

Naminé is very explicitly a fluke, an accident, an exception to the rules. Kairi shouldn't even be allowed to have a Nobody in the first place, because she cannot produce a Heartless.

As for Roxas, there's nothing special about him. He's a regular Nobody born the regular way.
It's, again, a fluke that he developed an independent personality, because Sora's heart was brought back by Kairi, snapping the connection between him and Roxas, resulting in his amnesia.

Ventus's involvement in all of this is completely cosmetic. He's in Sora's body, so with the absence of Sora's heart, the body takes on the shape of the only heart left. That's it. Roxas doesn't wield because of Ventus. Naminé isn't blonde because of Ventus. He's just there.
 

*TwilightNight*

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This.

Although to be honest right now none of that matters since they’re human now. Well…living dolls at least.

Apparently, they also get to keep their powers. Xion and Roxas get to keep their keyblades, with Roxas’ double-wielding because of a glitch from having two sets of memories (the original one and his life in data Twilight Town). Naminé is implied to have kept hers as well, and is probing Roxas and Xion in Twilight Town for leads to find Sora.
That depends. The bodies were created using the data in Twilight Town, which is the data that had their original bodies in it. Xion was a replica recreated all over again using Vexen's leftover notes of No.i in KHIII. So Xion essentially remains the same.

On the other hand, Naminè was able to use her powers while dead in KH's equivalent to limbo, so she's just a strong boss bitch and her abilities might be just tied to her actual heart.



I think this theory is widespread because she's blonde like Ven and was born at Castle Oblivion, making it seem like she could be connected to Ven.
But she isn't and Nomura didn't at all mention her when explaining Ven and Roxas. It's just aesthetic. He wanted Naminè to look pale. The issue is they throw it around as fact. Just look at OP.



The best and simplest way to think of Naminé is that, even though she's technically classified as a Nobody for convenience, think of her as like Kairi's Heartless, since she was born of Kairi's heart leaving Sora's body. Normally, this would result in the creation of a Heartless, but since Kairi's heart is void of darkness, what results is the creation of a pseudo-Nobody. In a sense, it might be more accurate to say that Namine is more like Kairi's spectre than her Nobody, and that her disembodied heart created its own manifestation of her (I assume using her Princess of Heart powers, flaunting the normal rules of nature—for, under normal circumstances, even considering that Kairi's heart is pure, the fact that her heart went straight from Sora back to Kairi would seem to preclude the creation of a Nobody, but Kairi's powers might have circumvented this and broken the laws of nature to basically create a pseudo-Nobody out of thin air without an empty vessel needing to exist), and this Kairi-spectre mixed very slightly with some of Sora's identity (since her heart was released from his body and their memories became intertwined during their time together) to create an entity altogether new.
I think you may have a point in there since the Ansem Reports do state somewhere that Naminè is like the spectre of Kairi that came into contact/touched Sora's heart with hers. That's why she has those powers over Sora's memories.

People just confuse themselves only because they choose to take things literally and buy into Naminè having Sora's body when she doesn't because of misinformation being spread. More than likely due to shipping reasons so they can argue that Roxas and Naminè are related in counter to the selfcest comments of Roxas and Xion.
 

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Man... Kingdom Hearts is LESS confusing now that all these characters have been magically put in replicas and sent to side character mountain. It's not so confusing that I don't get it, just confusing enough for me to wonder why we're even bothering trying to understand.
 

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But she isn't and Nomura didn't at all mention her when explaining Ven and Roxas. It's just aesthetic. He wanted Naminè to look pale. The issue is they throw it around as fact. Just look at OP.
You're not wrong, her design was purely aesthetic, though I think so was Roxas' originally. However you can't really blame people for jumping into conclusions, when this series kind of conditions you to do so, by making seemingly unimportant thing suddenly significant and feeling the need to connect every character with another.

I do overall agree with you, that it's an issue that somethings that are just fanon theory (Like Sora being able to wield because of Ven) are kind of spread around as if they were canon. Though I'm sure I've been guilty of that myself, seeing sometimes it's hard to keep it all straight.
I think you may have a point in there since the Ansem Reports do state somewhere that Naminè is like the spectre of Kairi that came into contact/touched Sora's heart with hers. That's why she has those powers over Sora's memories.

People just confuse themselves only because they choose to take things literally and buy into Naminè having Sora's body when she doesn't because of misinformation being spread. More than likely due to shipping reasons so they can argue that Roxas and Naminè are related.
I don't think it's solely that. Looking at the Ansem Report, it's not really worded well and I can see where the confusion comes from.
Secret Ansem Report 10 said:
Sora went to sleep in order to recover the memories he had lost in Castle Oblivion.
It would take quite some time to bring back all the memories he had created in his lifetime.
But Organization XIII held sway over Castle Oblivion. Sora would need to be kept someplace more secure.
I persuaded Naminé to move the slumbering Sora to Twilight Town for safekeeping.
Naminé.
As I have written before, she is a most unusual being.
Born of the same process as a Nobody, but lacking virtually all the elements of a Nobody.
Perhaps she continues drawing in hopes of capturing that which she lacks: the memories of others, especially Sora.
I have arrived at a hypothesis.
I believe that Naminé was born as a special type of Nobody when Sora attacked himself with the Keyblade, causing his and Kairi's hearts to leave their bodies simultaneously.
Naminé emerged as Kairi's Nobody...but the body and soul necessary to exist as a Nobody belonged to Sora.
When a person's heart is stolen, a Heartless is born with no sense of self, and the body and soul left behind give rise to a Nobody.
But what if one willingly releases one's heart from one's body?
Sora and Xehanort retained their selfhood even after becoming Heartless.
Then there are Kairi and Naminé.
Kairi was exceptional for having had no darkness within her heart. Also exceptional was that her heart, once freed, migrated to a new vessel—Sora.
The combination of the two theoretically unlikely exceptions may be behind this anomaly.
There are matters I must attend to while Sora is sleeping.
A new ally has appeared on the scene: Riku.
I think the bolded line is responsible for the notion that Naminé has some of Sora's body and soul. If you just read the report and don't notice that visuals in the game don't really support this, it's easy to assume she was born of Sora and Kairi. Instead of Sora's body and soul just being a medium used in her creation.
 

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Let’s end this once and for all by giving a quick and concise rundown.
  • Roxas and Naminé were born at the exact same time when Sora stabbed himself with the incomplete Keyblade of Heart to free Kairi’s heart.
  • Roxas was born at Twilight Town (apparently with clothes on), and his appearance is due to Ventus’ train wreck of a heart remaining in Sora’s body.
  • Naminé was born at Castle Oblivion, whether this was unique to her or it’s possible for other Nobodies to be born there are not known. The exception to this are the initial batch of Replicas, because they are “ready-to-make” artifices and could be considered a type of Nobody (i.e. a body and soul with nothing driving it).
  • Roxas got his power to wield the keyblade from Sora, because he is Sora’s Nobody, and is carrying the body and soul.
  • Meanwhile, Sora was restored and is a walking projection of a heart made possible by Kairi. He does not have a body or soul.
  • Xion and her nearly year-long angst blah blah blah who cares? This thread is about Roxas and Namine’s creation, not hers.
  • Roxas finishes his “summer vacation”, the body and soul is reclaimed by Sora, but for some reason, Roxas retains some conscious co-existence inside Sora, proven how he managed to fight his original self at the Station some time after Axel got axed (heh). An emotional trigger that was caused by the loss of a friend.
  • Meanwhile, Naminé rescues Kairi, and their proximity begins to affect the former’s existence.
  • The Nobodies merge together with their original selves, though they have lived long enough independently to cultivate hearts of their own.
  • They’re so sad about a lot of things during their year of independence that they managed to retain a separate consciousness which kept their hearts separate from fusing.
  • Replica program comes in handy, they become human, or well, breathing talking mannequins like Pinocchio. They keep their powers.
 

*TwilightNight*

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You're not wrong, her design was purely aesthetic, though I think so was Roxas' originally. However you can't really blame people for jumping into conclusions, when this series kind of conditions you to do so, by making seemingly unimportant thing suddenly significant and feeling the need to connect every character with another.

I do overall agree with you, that it's an issue that somethings that are just fanon theory (Like Sora being able to wield because of Ven) are kind of spread around as if they were canon. Though I'm sure I've been guilty of that myself, seeing sometimes it's hard to keep it all straight.

I don't think it's solely that. Looking at the Ansem Report, it's not really worded well and I can see where the confusion comes from.

I think the bolded line is responsible for the notion that Naminé has some of Sora's body and soul. If you just read the report and don't notice that visuals in the game don't really support this, it's easy to assume she was born of Sora and Kairi. Instead of Sora's body and soul just being a medium used in her creation.
I know, but I assumed that logical processing of information would have people question how is it possible to split Sora's body and how is it that Naminè fully returned to Kairi without giving anything of Sora back that she apparently "posesses".

The wording is confusing though. Which makes me wonder how the Japanese version of the reports explained it. I'm curious now.

-----

Anyone has a hold of those or any translations of that?

Or should we go on a prayer circle to summon the great Goldpanner deity to aid us in this intricate matter?
 

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Silence, traitor. Lmao jk. Joking aside, this really does make no sense lol. One explanation for some of the stuff is that Ven's heart wasn't released, it was still part of Sora's because Ven's heart was damaged. I'm pretty sure Roxas can dual wield not because it's a special ability but because he got Xion's Keyblade after he killed her. Anyone in the series can dual wield if they have a Keyblade. Riku and Sora use each others Keyblades in II several times. I guess somehow Kairi was able to restore or give Sora a new body in 1. I guess Sora created Namine because he had two whole hearts in his body, his and Kairi's. Roxas doesn't have Ven's heart because III reveals Sora had Roxas, Xion and Ven's hearts in his body, meaning Roxas' heart is his own. If Roxas had Ven's heart, they wouldn't be able to exist at the same time in III.
Speaking of this, Xemnas is a similar type of Nobody as Roxas. Xemnas is a Nobody from a body with two hearts, but he's a combination of both hearts rather than being a Nobody from one of those hearts. Roxas is a combination of Sora and Ven rather than being a Nobody of Sora or Ven.
 

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I'm pretty sure Roxas can dual wield not because it's a special ability but because he got Xion's Keyblade after he killed her.
It's officially confirmed it was Ven's and Sora's Keyblades Roxas was using. Xion's was never real and was a bootleg.
 
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