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wanted to destroy all worlds so he could recreate them in his own image,id kill him to if i were sora,killing inocent beings is WRONG!!!
Sora is Evil!!!
- Thread starter Kaden
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Are you serious? Look, Sora may not always do what is smart, but honestly I don't think he has the mental capacity for intentionally evil acts. not to sound like Ansem or anything, but really...
They weren't innocent at ALL! They caused much trouble. and honestly, who has REALLY died in Kingdom Hearts? Everyone either fades away or burst into sparkles...
Don't get me wrong... I actually like everylast one of the Nobodies for various reasons.
They weren't innocent at ALL! They caused much trouble. and honestly, who has REALLY died in Kingdom Hearts? Everyone either fades away or burst into sparkles...
Don't get me wrong... I actually like everylast one of the Nobodies for various reasons.
I think it was sad also Kaden. Come on, if Saix's death didnt break your heart, its made of ice. I wanted to cry but then again the only one who didnt try to kill sora was Axel. So yeah, he had to fight. It was a kill or be killed type of situation.
I think it was pretty sad, but that doesn't mean Sora is evil. I mean, c'mon! Wouldn't you want to kill the Organization XIII after what they did?
Ok wait this is where I really disagree with you there. Sora in my eyes never showed any compassion for the Organization nor did he every think of an other means to stop them besides "death". Yes they needed to be stopped or more a less stopped being manipulated by Xenmas with his promise of hearts but Sora doesn't even question their reasoning or anything he just hack and slashes his way though because they are "evil", I'm not saying the Org. is good I'm just saying their cause was understandable and maybe attainable by other means but they never got the chance due mostly to Xenmas(manipulation) and Sora(killing them).
That's how I see it...so Sora isn't evil he just saw things as black and white is all...
Once you pop, the fun don't stop! :thumbsup:
Come on - would you have not killed Larxene?
Come on - would you have not killed Larxene?
I WOULDNT HAVE SHES THE BEST, and besides i wanted to see her whole
Ah, but here's the beauty of it. What else could he have done to stop Organization XIII from doing the treacherous things they were doing? They needed to be stopped, see, because nobodies don't have feelings and therefore can cause undesirable amounts of damage without feeling a thing.
You try to understand how the Organization members could rationalize with what they were doing; they couldn't, because they're nobodies. Sora had no other option but to dispose of them. Sora, by nature, gets pissed off easily, and when Organization XIII interfered with his mission (and also took Kairi), that pushed the button for him. Their relentless attacks and pestering appearances drove Sora AND his friends to the limit. You see, it wasn't only Sora who "wanted to kill them all," but his friends were in it with him together.
Indeed, maybe there were other means of achieving their goals, but Sora did the right thing in stopping them before they could cause more harm. Don't you agree?
sora didn't know what he was doing at first.all he knew in the beginning was that the heartless were back and needed to be stopped.after chain of memories he forgot all about the organization remember?he lost all his memories about castle oblivion but regained those of kh 1.if you haven't seen your best friend and girlfriend in a year,and some dude in a black coat teases you by saying "kairi....look i'm sorry i've got her locked up in this castle,that is led by this guy who is going to reopen kingdom hearts,and also i heard riku is there but you're going to have to go through me to get them!"yeah if that was me i would definitely kill them.
Sora isn't the smartest hero of course but I at least would like to have seen the boy question a few things and really think and follow what he thought was right instead of just accepting what heard/saw and that is that. He could have done something else but he choose not to think of another alternative...since you know it's Sora and I guess the boy just can't have any real character development.Deeman said:
That whole "feelings" thing needs to be cleared up seriously because in order to want to be complete they had to at least feel incomplete. If you have no feelings then why should you feel bad because you aren't a whole being? I see that as a problem..
Like I said before if you don't have feelings then why do you want to be complete so badly? It should be like "I'm nobody so like whatever" not like "I WANT ME A HEART!!11!!!"
That just shows Sora is just too simple minded for me, he has a right to get angry but that doesn't mean he has to be as irrational as he was. "I IZ ANGRY THUS I MUST KILL SOEM DOODZ IN BLACK!!" Great hero qualities there Sora..hack and slash.
Yeah and? The Org hurt some people and kidnapped Kairi that doesn't mean that they should have been treated like they were just the scum of the earth. If the game was more thought out(character wise) I think there could have been multiple ways to help the Org out or maybe convince some to leave the Org, I mean look at Axel he turned good and he was the one who kidnapped kairi. Also Sora's friends are just gonna follow Sora cause it's Sora so there besides they have the same ideal/mentality as Sora does anyways.
I would have liked Sora to be more of a role model then just a follower. Sora doesn't ask questions about what is good and what is evil, he just sees everything as black and white pretty much throughout the game. That isn't wrong but it is kinda one-sided since he doesn't really think about anything besides what is given to him other older heroes might have seen the situation in a different light (maybe) but someone as young as Sora is just too wet behind the ears to do something more than "what the good guy is supposed to do" or at least what he was told the good guy is supposed to do.
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When I thought back to it I figured Sora was evil too. But then I thought to myself if the organization never lost their hearts in the first place they wont be going through all that in the first place. And we all know how the Organization started.
I understand what ur saying but I think if I was in this situation I would be pissed too!!! I or so I'm told am a very caring person and try my best to think things through in a situation but if someone threaten me, my friends, and other peoples safety and then on top basically call me a loser then yes they must be stop!!! But Sora had to have remember what occured in Castle Oblivion because of Roxas right? Because I remember hearing or reading about Sora saying something about not being able to 'thank Namine'? If he couldn't remember what happen Castle Oblivion how could he remember that?
But the Organization were so cruel and didn't care about others feelings....think about the aweful things they did to Beast and to others...Sora wasn't going off of others opinions he witness the way they acted in a way. In the end they were using Sora and were trying to kill him off as a thank you.
In a way they didn't 'feel incomplete' they just knew that they were incomplete and they wanted to be complete so they can be like everyone else or be normal... So maybe if they had went and asked Sora for help instead of going about it the way they did then maybe the outcome would be different.
But everyone is entitled to there on opinion...I personally don't think Sora is evil, but just a person who wanted to help his friends and others which isn't a bad thing.
What? Do you mean Sora had to remember the rest of the Org from Castle Oblivion cause if so I think he remembered once he finally rejoined with Roxas...I'm not sure.I understand what ur saying but I think if I was in this situation I would be pissed too!!! I or so I'm told am a very caring person and try my best to think things through in a situation but if someone threaten me, my friends, and other peoples safety and then on top basically call me a loser then yes they must be stop!!! But Sora had to have remember what occured in Castle Oblivion because of Roxas right? Because I remember hearing or reading about Sora saying something about not being able to 'thank Namine'? If he couldn't remember what happen Castle Oblivion how could he remember that?
Sora was first alerted about the Nobodies by Yensid and since Yensid told Sora that nobodies were basically evil or bad and had to be stopped that's what he believed. Once the Org got involved with their so called "evil" deeds Sora got mad and wanted to kill them but in my eyes killing the Org wasn't exactly (as you put it) a thank you to his friends but since Sora is just blinded by childish anger he didn't see that the Org (most of them maybe) could have been saved or at least reasoned with. Now this isn't just Sora's fault of course like I said before Xenmas is a major factor and due to his manipulation of the Org and they saw no other alternative to their actions also but nobodies like Axel proved that not all nobodies are bad and showed that the Org could have possibly been dealt with in a different way.
In order to want something you have to feel [insert sad,bad,horrible,incomplete,etc here]. Just knowing that you are different than everyone else is enough to spark emotions, obviously you can't say that Roxas and Axel don't have feeling cause if they didn't then Axel wouldn't have felt bad about Roxas being gone nor would Roxas have gotten angry when he was in that basement place and so on. I already made my point about the Org being at fault too so yeah..
Like other peeps said, Sora didn't have a whole lot of a choice. Plus, he didn't destroy all of them, Riku helped. Anyways, they may have wanted hearts but sending out Nobodies to hurt other people and stealing the hearts of those who once were wasn't a sign of innocence at all. They weren't even thinking about their Nobody pawns. Seeing as how they could still be without hearts, even without feeling emotion, it would be better to be than to be killed. What's several empty shells against a whole universe of hearts?
What's up Kawaiikousuke!!!
Anyway about the 'Sora remembering the events that occured in Castle Oblivion because of Roxas' I'm not real sure? I was hoping u knew because I didn't want seem like I was a retard which I'm not...LOL
I think to some extent Roxas could feel thanks to being Sora's nobody.I agree with u about the Xemnas kind of not givening them an option...But the only nobody's I felt sorry for was Axel and Roxas. To me they were the only ones that went against what Xemnas said which made feel like the other nobody's were happy because if they weren't they would have went against xemnas like Axel or Roxas...
Anyway about the 'Sora remembering the events that occured in Castle Oblivion because of Roxas' I'm not real sure?
I was hoping u knew because I didn't want seem like I was a retard which I'm not...LOLI think to some extent Roxas could feel thanks to being Sora's nobody.I agree with u about the Xemnas kind of not givening them an option...But the only nobody's I felt sorry for was Axel and Roxas. To me they were the only ones that went against what Xemnas said which made feel like the other nobody's were happy because if they weren't they would have went against xemnas like Axel or Roxas...
What up yo!
I would think that it would be because he joined with Roxas but then again if he did then why wouldn't he have thanked Namine? -sigh- dang it...now I have to go find out.Anyway about the 'Sora remembering the events that occured in Castle Oblivion because of Roxas' I'm not real sure?
Well Marluxia he was pretty much against Xenmas and so was Vexen, they may not have been very clear about it but they were against what Xenmas was doing.
He choose to not have choices. (that does make sense well to me it does.)InfiniteTwilight said:
So did Donald and goofy, they never get enough credit..
Nobody ever thinks about the pawns their pawns and unless your playing chess then you care nothing for the pawns! Anyways your last statement confuses me a bit, do you mean the Org is nothing against the universe filled with hearts and or it's was better for them to live than die?
First of all, Sora is not evil. He was not killing Nobodies for spiteful reasons, he did it to protect his friends and all the worlds. He is a genuinely kind, lovable person, and you can tell by the way he easily makes new friends in all the different places he travels to. Plus, they're all really happy to see him again after a year, because they see him for who he is: a good friend and a good person.
Now, about the Organization...
I love them; they are one cool set of villains! But the key word in that sentence is villains. Yes, they lack hearts, the poor things. I'd feel a bit more sorry for the original six if they hadn't lost their hearts on purpose in the first place!! You can love the Organization all you want, but that doesn't necessarily make them good people. Also, we see the whole picture. Sora doesn't know what went on during the prologue, or about any of their backgrounds. He sees his friend/secret crush being kidnapped at different times by different members. He sees Xaldin trying to seperate the Beast from Belle. He sees Luxord's crew attack and almost kill Will Turner. He sees Demyx steal the Olympus Stone, which can help him fight Hades. Xigbar likes to taunt him. The list goes on.
So yes, he reacts. Yen Sid and King Mickey tell him that the Nobodies are dangerous, so of course he listens to them. But he did try to help Axel in Betwixt and Between, and sounded sad when he died. So he doesn't completely see things in black and white. He just does the best he can with the knowledge he has.
Now, about the Organization...
I love them; they are one cool set of villains! But the key word in that sentence is villains. Yes, they lack hearts, the poor things. I'd feel a bit more sorry for the original six if they hadn't lost their hearts on purpose in the first place!! You can love the Organization all you want, but that doesn't necessarily make them good people. Also, we see the whole picture. Sora doesn't know what went on during the prologue, or about any of their backgrounds. He sees his friend/secret crush being kidnapped at different times by different members. He sees Xaldin trying to seperate the Beast from Belle. He sees Luxord's crew attack and almost kill Will Turner. He sees Demyx steal the Olympus Stone, which can help him fight Hades. Xigbar likes to taunt him. The list goes on.
So yes, he reacts. Yen Sid and King Mickey tell him that the Nobodies are dangerous, so of course he listens to them. But he did try to help Axel in Betwixt and Between, and sounded sad when he died. So he doesn't completely see things in black and white. He just does the best he can with the knowledge he has.
I don't think all of them were evil and had to be killed.. some just wanted to be whole I mean you can't really call Demyx or Laxeaus evil I think some just joined the Organization because they had to
I think maybe Xemnas and Saix were evil but not as bad as Xehanort
I think maybe Xemnas and Saix were evil but not as bad as Xehanort
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It seems kind of silly to me to think Sora's evil for fighting Organization XIII. I mean, think of it from his point of view. His first introduction to them is through Yen Sid, someone who is highly respected by both Donald and Goofy. And all Yen Sid says about Nobodies is that they were never intended to exist, and that they will all attempt to do Sora harm.
Now, this isn't exactly true - Namine was helping Sora, and Axel ended up dying for him - but, Sora has no way of knowing this at the time. In fact, everything he sees from the Nobodies corresponds with the idea that they all intend to hurt him. His first experience with Dusks is to be surrounded and beaten, and having to be saved by Mickey. And the Organization didn't help change this perception at all - Xaldin manipulates Beast to make him attack his friends, including Sora, Saix is horrible to Sora and toys with him at every opportunity, and even Demyx makes a bad first impression by stealing something Sora needs and then attacking him (however poorly) under orders. Besides, when it comes right down to it, the Organization members are always perfectly willing to fight Sora, even if they don't exactly force him into the fight or don't want to at first.
So it makes perfect sense that Sora, being the naive hero that he is, wouldn't question whether or not Yen Sid's statements about the Nobodies are correct - up until Axel's death, he has seen nothing that would contradict what Yen Sid says about the Nobodies. And each of the Organization members seemed to be doing something that had to be stopped - Demyx probably was in Hollow Bastion to join in with the attack in some way, considering that his Nobodies are there and attacking Sora, and Xaldin is trying to turn Beast into a Heartless. It's perfectly reasonable that Sora would want to prevent them from doing this.
The more interesting problem, then, is how Sora reacts to the Nobodies after it's made clear that Yen Sid's explanation is a bit over-simplistic. He's clearly upset by Axel's death; Xigbar, Luxord, Saix, and Xemnas are far less clear. However, Sora does seem to be a bit bothered, looking at his expressions - he's no longer taunting the Organization like he did after beating Demyx, in any case.
It's kind of a matter of interpretation, though - whether or not you want to take Sora's "Hey, hold on!" as something more than "Don't die until you tell me what you're on about" (which seems likely; I really can't imagine Sora actually meaning anything quite so cold xD), or whether you take the change of expression when Sora's telling the fading Luxord "That's Sora!" to be uncertainty or sadness, or whether you want to take Sora's sad downward look after Saix fades as sadness over having to kill Saix or just part of his confusion, or whether you want to take his unsure look after Xemnas fades the first time as over Xemnas or some kind of remembered parallel between him and Xemnas and Roxas and Riku. I'm inclined to think that Sora doesn't like what he's doing, and probably just doesn't think there's any other way to set the worlds right.
The real underlying issue, in my opinion, is that the Nobodies are sympathetic villains, but they still have to die - and not just because they're doing anything wrong. The Nobodies' very existence precludes the existence of their Other, in all but two highly-unusual cases - for the Other to be revived, the Nobody must be killed as well as the Heartless that stole their heart. So killing a Nobody isn't the same as killing a person, even if they look and act like one; this is just something that is never made clear enough, so it's possible to take the sympathetic part too far and say that Sora's bad for killing people who just want to be whole again.
To sum up - no, Sora's not evil; he's just doing what he thinks he has to do to protect the world and his friends, without knowing all the facts, and despite the fact that he doesn't like what that is. Which is heroic in its own way, I think.
Now, this isn't exactly true - Namine was helping Sora, and Axel ended up dying for him - but, Sora has no way of knowing this at the time. In fact, everything he sees from the Nobodies corresponds with the idea that they all intend to hurt him. His first experience with Dusks is to be surrounded and beaten, and having to be saved by Mickey. And the Organization didn't help change this perception at all - Xaldin manipulates Beast to make him attack his friends, including Sora, Saix is horrible to Sora and toys with him at every opportunity, and even Demyx makes a bad first impression by stealing something Sora needs and then attacking him (however poorly) under orders. Besides, when it comes right down to it, the Organization members are always perfectly willing to fight Sora, even if they don't exactly force him into the fight or don't want to at first.
So it makes perfect sense that Sora, being the naive hero that he is, wouldn't question whether or not Yen Sid's statements about the Nobodies are correct - up until Axel's death, he has seen nothing that would contradict what Yen Sid says about the Nobodies. And each of the Organization members seemed to be doing something that had to be stopped - Demyx probably was in Hollow Bastion to join in with the attack in some way, considering that his Nobodies are there and attacking Sora, and Xaldin is trying to turn Beast into a Heartless. It's perfectly reasonable that Sora would want to prevent them from doing this.
The more interesting problem, then, is how Sora reacts to the Nobodies after it's made clear that Yen Sid's explanation is a bit over-simplistic. He's clearly upset by Axel's death; Xigbar, Luxord, Saix, and Xemnas are far less clear. However, Sora does seem to be a bit bothered, looking at his expressions - he's no longer taunting the Organization like he did after beating Demyx, in any case.
It's kind of a matter of interpretation, though - whether or not you want to take Sora's "Hey, hold on!" as something more than "Don't die until you tell me what you're on about" (which seems likely; I really can't imagine Sora actually meaning anything quite so cold xD), or whether you take the change of expression when Sora's telling the fading Luxord "That's Sora!" to be uncertainty or sadness, or whether you want to take Sora's sad downward look after Saix fades as sadness over having to kill Saix or just part of his confusion, or whether you want to take his unsure look after Xemnas fades the first time as over Xemnas or some kind of remembered parallel between him and Xemnas and Roxas and Riku. I'm inclined to think that Sora doesn't like what he's doing, and probably just doesn't think there's any other way to set the worlds right.
The real underlying issue, in my opinion, is that the Nobodies are sympathetic villains, but they still have to die - and not just because they're doing anything wrong. The Nobodies' very existence precludes the existence of their Other, in all but two highly-unusual cases - for the Other to be revived, the Nobody must be killed as well as the Heartless that stole their heart. So killing a Nobody isn't the same as killing a person, even if they look and act like one; this is just something that is never made clear enough, so it's possible to take the sympathetic part too far and say that Sora's bad for killing people who just want to be whole again.
To sum up - no, Sora's not evil; he's just doing what he thinks he has to do to protect the world and his friends, without knowing all the facts, and despite the fact that he doesn't like what that is. Which is heroic in its own way, I think.
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