Seems a bit contradictory (was the world truly void of darkness?)



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Gram

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(Not sure if this goes in BBS or DDD sections but I'll put it in DDD just in case)

So lately something has seemed a bit off to me, namely the whole tidbit about how "in the age of fairy tales, the world was filled with light".
This era in kh's history is all but unknown to use but there are some, although few, details we do know:

1. That in this age the true kingdom hearts and its counterpart/guardian the X-blade were both present in the world

2. Darkness had not yet formed in the hearts of people

3. Up till people began to desire the light for themselves the imitation 'keyblades' wielded by the current characters of the series had not yet been forged

4. All worlds were connected

5. The world was filled with light

But therein lies the confusion, namely with fact number five. If the world truly was filled with light and darkness had not been yet born then why is it that the X-blade itself is described as being a perfect crossing of these two elements?

It's pointed out a couple times in various forms such as DDD's glossary:

DDD Glossary said:
If Kingdom Hearts is a lock, then this blade from the age of fairy tales was the key.

It could be argued that without the χ-blade, the Keyblade War might never have been waged; after all, you cannot possess what you cannot find or unlock.

It is clear the blade was the inspiration for human-wrought Keyblades. The letter χ can be pronounced both "key" or "kye" (leading to some confusion) and symbolizes the perfect crossing of light and darkness. The χ-blade can be forged via a high-dimensional clash between those two poles.

It is believed that the Recusant's Sigil also derives from χ.
Source: Glossary - [Dream Drop Distance] - Kingdom Hearts Insider

By nomura in an interview:

-- There was a new type of keyblade that appeared this time, changing the “key” in keyblade to “X” (The X of the Greek alphabet, pronounced “key”. It also has the meaning of “ultimate” or “death”.) It’s quite an excellent name.

Nomura: The name “X-Blade” was Watanabe (Daisuke), the scenario writer’s, idea. How the symbol X ‘crosses’ is symbolic of the crossing of dark and light. The members of Organization XIII get their names by adding an X to the name they had as humans comes from this. Also, the Nobody’s mark looks a lot like Eraqus’ symbol, but you can probably figure out that the reason this is has something to do with Xemnas.
Source: Full Famitsu Interview - News - Kingdom Hearts Insider

And a third time by Yen Sid when explaining the keyblade war to Sora and Riku:


youtube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kum1HitF_XY

Yen Sid said:
....As for the real X-blade, it did not survive the battle. The two elements that created it, one of darkness and one of light, shattered into twenty pieces--seven of light; thirteen of darkness.
It's also in this scene Yen Sid says "the first shadows were cast upon the land"

----------------------------

This seems a bit contradictory doesn't it?

How can the original x-blade, that existed with kingdom hearts in the "age of fairy tales", have been made from the element of darkness (in conjunction with light) when the world in this era is described as being "filled with light" and supposedly devoid of darkness?

EDIT: (because I somehow forgot to add this part)

I point all this out because the notion many carry that the world was void of darkness at one time has always been something that's honestly seemed off to me.
 
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Blackdrazon

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Like the plot of KHX, it's probably easiest to just pass off contradictory details of the past as being fairy tale embellishments or details lost to time. In fact, after who knows how much time, why should the legend be literally true to begin with? That said, I think you're making a mistake in reading the fairy tale as saying that there's no darkness at all, anywhere, ever. "The World was filled with Light" doesn't preclude there being Darkness in the world any more than "The Ocean was filled with Water" precludes there being Earth in it (at the bottom, floating as silt everywhere...), it just means there's a lot of Light.

Furthermore, while I'm not sure if this is your reading, but just in case: "Darkness had not yet been formed in the hearts of people" likely doesn't mean "Darkness had not yet been formed." Yes, you could read it that way ("Darkness had not yet been formed, at all, because Darkness is only formed in the heart of people") but I think it's supposed to read exactly as it says: "Darkness had not yet been formed in the hearts of people." It's elsewhere, people are just beatifically good, without any darkness in their hearts as it naturally arises in the present-day KH universe. It's like any story of a mythical golden age gone bad.

Even if you don't like that, we come back to the fairy tale explanation: why was there a half-dark Keyblade in a world filled with light? "Because," says the Grim Brothers. "Because." Maybe it's the only Darkness out there ever and it corrupted everyone else? There's no reason the legend of the X-blade should have to bow to the legend of how everything was filled with light, neither is really more authoritative than the other, and frankly, both are probably smudging the details.
 
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Gram

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The plot and game itself of KHX is non-canon though save for the foretellers bit revealed a while back, so it's contradictory nature the the series is explained.

I'm not so much as reading it that way personally but rather pointing out the contradicting details of it to the fanbase that, from what I can tell on this site and a few others, largely takes it as meaning "darkness didn't yet exist".
(why you wonder? because meh why not, discussion piece. enjoys reading the varying opinions people form)
 
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Blackdrazon

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I think you misunderstood me, because that's exactly what I said: KHX isn't canon and it's mostly a goofy fairy tale piece. I was suggesting we treat the other fairy tales the same way: only vaguely correct. After all, no one telling them was there to see it, and there's no reason we should take them literally!

As for Darkness not yet existing, I don't see it. Unless the Japanese version has a more direct statement to that effect, my reading of the lines seems just as valid, and moreover, answers the question.
 

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As for Darkness not yet existing, I don't see it. Unless the Japanese version has a more direct statement to that effect, my reading of the lines seems just as valid.
Never said they wasn't as valid.

EDIT: (posted by accident before finished)

I dont see it that way either, darkness is the lights counter. You can't have one while lacking the other.
It's that fact in of itself that may have lead to darkness stepping into human hearts. (thus a thread pointing out why the world could never have been truly devoid of darkness)
 

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Yeah, sorry about that, that came off harsher than I meant.

I dont see it that way either, darkness is the lights counter. You can't have one while lacking the other.
It's that fact in of itself that may have lead to darkness stepping into human hearts.
That's a good point! It certainly seems to have seeped out of somewhere, be it the X-blade or the World of Darkness. Or who knows.

Actually, was there ever a line saying the World of Darkness didn't exist back then? Maybe that's your answer. All those other statements could just be referring to the World of Light. Maybe the Darkness was all over there, FFIII style, locked away, until things got unbalanced.
 
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Sephiroth0812

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I assume that there is a misconception regarding to the scale what "The world" means in its entirety.
When Yen Sid and others speak about "the world filled with light" they speak about the original, unstained Realm of Light.

In its current state, the Realm of Light has a so-called "ocean of worlds" which also contains the Lanes Between which is described to be Darkness (that's why TAV have their armor when travelling or SDG their gummi ship) while the "true" Realm of Light are just light "drops" scattered around in this ocean, which are the countless worlds.
This is the result of the Keyblade War, the Realm of Light is no more true to its name as it was flooded by Darkness (remember the Foreteller's script!) and it is only still called that (interchangeable with "The world") because numerous smaller worlds were created and maintained by the surviving children of the war.

Back in the age of fairytales, there was no "ocean of worlds" and also no darkness within the Realm of Light (that's why it is called thus).
However, the Realm of Darkness already existed too, as the shadow casted by the Realm of Light in its entirety and/or the true KH.
Unlike the reorganized universe though, during the age of fairytales the RoL and the RoD were completely closed off from one another, with no access from either side.
The Greed born within some sentient beings though I suppose eroded whatever kept the realms staunchly apart over time until the realms "touched" or some definite breach happened that allowed Darkness of the RoL to somehow seep into the RoL and infect the first hearts, introducing Darkness for the first time in the RoL.
Think of it like the walls that protect the small worlds in the reorganized universe, only in the old world these walls encompassed the whole realm, shutting it off completely from te RoD.
Considering this and Nomura's statements that pureblood Heartless always existed within the RoD, it could be that at least the pureblood Heartless in x[chi] are semi-canon, although they are certainly not called that thousands of years in the past in-universe.

Short summary:
It was not that Darkness didn't exist per se, it was part of the universe, but it was totally unknown within the Realm of Light and confided to only the Realm of Darkness.
By having both realms present but unknown to each other, there was also a balance maintained for the entirety of the universe, just on a grander scale.
People getting greedy for KH's light and sparking the Keyblade War upset the original balance by slowly eroding the border between the realms and giving Darkness (due to its inherent corroding nature) an opportunity to get into the RoL.
 

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It's not that there was no darkness at all but that there was none in people. If I have this right it was their greed for the Light that caused Darkness to seep into their Hearts. Which makes me wonder a little what they were like before they had darkness in them. Did they simply not have certain emotions? *shrugs*

Actually, was there ever a line saying the World of Darkness didn't exist back then? Maybe that's your answer. All those other statements could just be referring to the World of Light. Maybe the Darkness was all over there, FFIII style, locked away, until things got unbalanced.
I don't think there was ever a line about the World/Realm of Darkness not existing back then. Given the RoD's weird, broken appearance I wouldn't be surprised if it's actually the remnants of the old world.
 

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^ given how both Cinderella and Ventus, beings devoid of darkness, showed negative emotion I doubt they lacked any in the original world either.

The state of the dark realm at present does seem curious. I wonder how much of it is whats left of the old world.
What if the dark realm itself is that old world? Maybe darkness existed in a different way then rather than being confined to realm (mostly) as it is now.

That's a good point! It certainly seems to have seeped out of somewhere, be it the X-blade or the World of Darkness. Or who knows.

Actually, was there ever a line saying the World of Darkness didn't exist back then? Maybe that's your answer. All those other statements could just be referring to the World of Light. Maybe the Darkness was all over there, FFIII style, locked away, until things got unbalanced.
It couldn't have seeped from the X-blade, at least I dont think so because the X-blade wasn't shattered and the elements consisting it divided until the end of the war after darkness had done spread.
 

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It couldn't have seeped from the X-blade, at least I dont think so because the X-blade wasn't shattered and the elements consisting it divided until the end of the war after darkness had done spread.
I meant more of a "darkness corrupting" sort of way. Everyone wants the X-blade, and we were talking about an otherwise dark-free world at the time, so I said maybe because that was where the rest of the darkness "came" from. But since we're no talking about an otherwise dark-free world any more, that point's not really relevant.
 

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This brings up actually something I was wondering (and was considering making a topic on in the future but now I can just put it here). While I know Chi is based on a fairytale (so you can always just pull that excuse on me), if we are to believe that darkness was not present in even a small part in people's hearts, were they not all Princes and Princesses of heart?

Obviously they weren't, but going on that note, it was also stated in KH1 that as light grows, so does darkness:

Mysterious Voice said:
The closer you get to the light, the greater your shadow becomes.
I never saw darkness as something that just appears in someone's heart, I always thought it was there and then could just grow. So how could it be true that people's hearts were all devoid of darkness? I definitely feel like I'm missing something.

 

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This brings up actually something I was wondering (and was considering making a topic on in the future but now I can just put it here). While I know Chi is based on a fairytale (so you can always just pull that excuse on me), if we are to believe that darkness was not present in even a small part in people's hearts, were they not all Princes and Princesses of heart?

Obviously they weren't, but going on that note, it was also stated in KH1 that as light grows, so does darkness:

I never saw darkness as something that just appears in someone's heart, I always thought it was there and then could just grow. So how could it be true that people's hearts were all devoid of darkness? I definitely feel like I'm missing something.
How do we know they weren't? Stories like this are inherently utopian. "Why do bad things happen?" "Well, child, once upon a time everything was perfect and people were better but now they're not." What little we do know about that period of time is that they were able to mass produce a canyon full of Keyblades of Light and one of them made a book that foretold the future, that could very well be because their hearts were, before things went downhill, filled with Light.

But probably it's just not meant to be taken literally again (though the Keyblade Graveyard does strongly suggest that they did have pretty Light-filled hearts by the modern comparison). They probably had less Darkness, rather than none. Jerks, rather than cackling Disney villains with black magic, and Final Fantasy villains with swords as tall as me.
 
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Gram

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This brings up actually something I was wondering (and was considering making a topic on in the future but now I can just put it here). While I know Chi is based on a fairytale (so you can always just pull that excuse on me), if we are to believe that darkness was not present in even a small part in people's hearts, were they not all Princes and Princesses of heart?
It may be a bit of both here, everyone was supposedly devoid of darkness like the PoH are now but that doesn't mean they are like them.
They'd be more akin to Ventus who is a normal person but just lacking darkness.

The PoH, while devoid of darkness even now, also have important and largely unknown roles they fill. (like for instance how they can be used to summon the DTD or used to form the so called "keyblade of hearts")

Simply put it may be more likely that while everyone lacked darkness like PoH they were most likely still normal folk like Ventus and it wasn't until after the war when the PoH took on such an important role. (after all after the war they were the only 7 pure hearts left for whatever reason)

Obviously they weren't, but going on that note, it was also stated in KH1 that as light grows, so does darkness:
It's pointed out a couple times with different words outside kh1 as well.
 

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I'm kinda starting to believe that the fairytale was from the viewpoint of a small child that was caught in the war.
 
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digimikej

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I assume that there is a misconception regarding to the scale what "The world" means in its entirety.
When Yen Sid and others speak about "the world filled with light" they speak about the original, unstained Realm of Light.

In its current state, the Realm of Light has a so-called "ocean of worlds" which also contains the Lanes Between which is described to be Darkness (that's why TAV have their armor when travelling or SDG their gummi ship) while the "true" Realm of Light are just light "drops" scattered around in this ocean, which are the countless worlds.
This is the result of the Keyblade War, the Realm of Light is no more true to its name as it was flooded by Darkness (remember the Foreteller's script!) and it is only still called that (interchangeable with "The world") because numerous smaller worlds were created and maintained by the surviving children of the war.

Back in the age of fairytales, there was no "ocean of worlds" and also no darkness within the Realm of Light (that's why it is called thus).
However, the Realm of Darkness already existed too, as the shadow casted by the Realm of Light in its entirety and/or the true KH.
Unlike the reorganized universe though, during the age of fairytales the RoL and the RoD were completely closed off from one another, with no access from either side.
The Greed born within some sentient beings though I suppose eroded whatever kept the realms staunchly apart over time until the realms "touched" or some definite breach happened that allowed Darkness of the RoL to somehow seep into the RoL and infect the first hearts, introducing Darkness for the first time in the RoL.
Think of it like the walls that protect the small worlds in the reorganized universe, only in the old world these walls encompassed the whole realm, shutting it off completely from te RoD.
Considering this and Nomura's statements that pureblood Heartless always existed within the RoD, it could be that at least the pureblood Heartless in x[chi] are semi-canon, although they are certainly not called that thousands of years in the past in-universe.

Short summary:
It was not that Darkness didn't exist per se, it was part of the universe, but it was totally unknown within the Realm of Light and confided to only the Realm of Darkness.
By having both realms present but unknown to each other, there was also a balance maintained for the entirety of the universe, just on a grander scale.
People getting greedy for KH's light and sparking the Keyblade War upset the original balance by slowly eroding the border between the realms and giving Darkness (due to its inherent corroding nature) an opportunity to get into the RoL.
this put an interesting thought in my head: if the darkness from the realm of darkness infected the realm of light, who's to say our light didn't infect the realm of darkness?
 

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I'm kinda starting to believe that the fairytale was from the viewpoint of a small child that was caught in the war.
I'm starting to wonder what would happen if someone killed a Heartless and suddenly someone from before the war was revived, say a Foreteller (I keep hoping they show up as bonus bosses in KH3, don't mind me). They'd be able to tell the truth about what happened, and it could be wildly different.

(Of course, the Foretellers have plenty of reasons to lie, too, since they caused the Keyblade War, blamed one another and in this hypothetical spent the next thousand years in Darkness, but let's pretend we catch them at a guilty moment, or throw the hypothetical out and revive someone who wasn't a Foreteller.)
 

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this put an interesting thought in my head: if the darkness from the realm of darkness infected the realm of light, who's to say our light didn't infect the realm of darkness?
That wouldn't be out of the realm of impossibility. For all we know, assuming there was two realms in the beginning, they may have very well collapsed and flooded one another resulting in darkness overrunning everything.

Though we dont even know if the world had two realms then or if the realms didn't take shape till after the war when the world was reshaped.

I'm kinda starting to believe that the fairytale was from the viewpoint of a small child that was caught in the war.
Likely as its been said that only children of unspecified number survived. It was them and their light that restored the world supposedly and if true they would be the ones responsible for how the legend was passed, and over time distorted.

Given how the current world operates around the imitation keyblades it's also likely they were the ones to re-purpose the keyblade from an evil weapon to what it is now.
 

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this put an interesting thought in my head: if the darkness from the realm of darkness infected the realm of light, who's to say our light didn't infect the realm of darkness?
Not impossible but unlikely due to the properties of the elements shown so far. Darkness is the invasive, corroding and consuming force as far as we know while light is mostly static and preserving. Besides, who cares if some light got into the RoD? That the flood of Darkness nearly completely destroyed the RoL and forced the reshaping of the whole universe is a much bigger problem I would assume.

That wouldn't be out of the realm of impossibility. For all we know, assuming there was two realms in the beginning, they may have very well collapsed and flooded one another resulting in darkness overrunning everything.

Though we dont even know if the world had two realms then or if the realms didn't take shape till after the war when the world was reshaped.


Likely as its been said that only children of unspecified number survived. It was them and their light that restored the world supposedly and if true they would be the ones responsible for how the legend was passed, and over time distorted.

Given how the current world operates around the imitation keyblades it's also likely they were the ones to re-purpose the keyblade from an evil weapon to what it is now.
A flood can only go in one direction and if darkness streamed out of the RoD in order to "destroy the light" as the Foreteller's script says, the Light would not have the time to "counterattack" not to mention that it was the RoL that was ravaged, not the RoD.
There did some light enter the RoD though, but only after the RoL was already nearly destroyed and enveloped in darkness: the true KH did sink into the RoD after the conclusion of the war.

If I had to take a guess as to how those children managed to survive and rebuild the worlds on a smaller scale, I would propose that it was the light of their own hearts that helped them survive and the power to rebuild came from the collected Lux and the Cards embodying the "power of the future" which would help avert the total destruction of everything according to Chirithy. Heck, maybe it was even Chirithy who protected and guided the surviving children while the Foretellers went ax-crazy and started to wreck everything.

It would be the most logical explanation though as I stated in my previous post. When we think about the "the greater the light, the bigger the shadow"-metaphor as universal, the pure, unstained light of the true KH and the old world "of fairy tales" must have cast a shadow somewhere.
That shadow would be the RoD, but no one would know about it and it would pose no threat because there was no connection between the realms.

Yea, their own light and possibly everything that was "gathered" by using the "power of the future" held by the cards, which was either given to them or collected by them from every fallen Keyblader in the war.

Possibly, I am thinking about that maybe even the unknown sixth Foreteller may be involved in it, mainly coming from the prospect that maybe by frantically trying to prevent the future predicted in that tome at all costs, the five other Foretellers actually caused the catastrophe to begin with like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
The sixth Foreteller didn't get the book of prophecy, but seeing where using it got the other five (and the whole universe) to may have sparked within him/her the idea to invent the current system with the imitation Keyblades, putting the tools of mass destruction to some good use after all that happened and maybe he/she was also the one to place a ban on certain knowledge and information in order to prevent anyone from making the same mistakes his/her peers fell prey to because of pursuing/trying to prevent the unknown.
As for why the sixth Foreteller also vanished, maybe he/she gave him/herself up in order to ensure the children survive and get the collected "power of the future" in order to rebuild the world, passing the new ideas and rules he/she devised also on to the children.
As Eraqus says:
BBS said:
Wait, Xehanort. There is a reason the precepts bar us from such knowledge. Why do you seek the X-blade? Would you blanket all the worlds in darkness, reduce them to nothing!?
Eraqus infers there being precepts for Keyblade Wielders that forbid certain things, someone, a person or a group of beings, must have created those rules. I theorize that these rules were set up, like the whole "security system", by the surviving children using classified knowledge about the reasons for the war, either passed down by the sixth Foreteller him/herself or by Chirithy.
 

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and if darkness streamed out of the RoD in order to "destroy the light" as the Foreteller's script says, the Light would not have the time to "counterattack" not to mention that it was the RoL that was ravaged, not the RoD.
The RoD is mentioned in by the foretellers? I haven't played Chi so I'm not familiar with what is said.
 
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The RoD is mentioned in by the foretellers? I haven't played Chi so I'm not familiar with what is said.
No, the script only speaks about darkness completely covering the world and doesn't mention the RoD explicitly, but the darkness has to come from somewhere not to mention that the true KH can only sink into the RoD if it exists.
 
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