Saïx and Axel scene

[NumberVIII]

Okay, so I was just re-watching some of the scenes from days, and I was wondering something. During the scene when Saïx is talking to Axel, he says "If you had to choose one of them, why would you choose the puppet?" Which, clearly, he's referring to Roxas and Xion. Then he says "Or put it this way. Which would you suffer the loss of: some make-believe friendship, or a real one?"

When I was watching it the first time, I assumed he was saying Axel's friendship with Roxas was more important than his "make-believe" friendship with Xion. But now I'm wondering...was he really talking about Roxas, or was he referring to their friendship--that is, Lea and Isa? Especially since he calls him Lea in this scene...I'm kind of torn though, because Saïx seems to be the most un-feeling of anyone in the Organization, and I can't really imagine him caring much about his friendship with Axel...I'm not really sure though.

Which do you think he was talking about, Axel and Roxas or Axel/Lea and Saïx/Isa?

PS: I'm new here. Hi *waves* Sorry if this has been brought up before. >>;

 

[Smile]

Hewwo

Seeing how in the end of that scene he called Axel "Lea" which is his Somebody's name, it means they knew before they were Nobodies which ties in with other tidbits thrown throughout the game and in the secret reports. As they would've been friends before becoming Nobodies, that would be a "real friendship" that also ties with Saix saying at one point that Axel changed, to the point the "past" means nothing to him.

tl;dr yes, Saix was talking about Axel's friendship with both Xion and Roxas - being the make belief friendship, vs. the real friendship being Lea and Isa's.

 

[Goldpanner]

The localisation:
I never expected you to question it. If you could save one of them... why would you choose the puppet? Or put it this way. Which would you rather suffer the loss of: some make-believe friendship, or a real one? Things are finally right again. Of course we're better off this way. Xemnas is exasperated from all the 'fixing' we've had to do. We have to set things right. There's simply too much on the line... Lea.

My literal translation of the Japanese：
For you to say such a thing. That doll, and Roxas. Which one is important to you? Let's change the question. Your worthless make-believe friendship, or the termination of Roxas. Which one is more important? Everything has gone back the way it was. Of course things are better this way, right?Xemnas, too, is irritated at the recent change of plans. Everything goes back the way it was. For the sake of our goal, too, right? Lea.

In other words, in the Japanese, he's pretty much saying 'if you keep playing with that doll, Roxas will have to be destroyed. Don't you care about that?'. I don't think it has anything to do with Saix and Axel's relationship.

On the other hand, perhaps he means 'what's more important, playing with the doll, or our plan to terminate Roxas?', in which case, he's asking Axel whether the plan is more important. Not their friendship.

In neither case is he talking about being friends with Axel... in fact, even in the secret reports, they call eachother comrades and in the novels, they say they 'knew eachother', but they haven't used the word 'friend' yet. At least in Japanese.

 

[Smile]

It does seem more likely to me that he'd be talking about the plan they had. What is more important - the make-belief friendship, or Roxas's termination - both friendships Axel had with Xion and Roxas are make-believe. I can't really see him showing Axel the "risks", especially seeing how Axel knew they were aiming at getting rid of Roxas throughout the game, and Saix kept berating him for getting in the way of that.

On the other hand, in light of the stuff the BBS scans and trailers show us, I fail to see why the usage of 'friendship' doesn't hold to you. Their Somebodies were, indeed, close associates - because let's face it, they don't play any other game but friendships in KH. Lea and Isa were no doubt friends, and unless you want to tell me that's another localization butchering, Saix raised the issue at one point that 'the past' meant nothing to Axel anymore. That's not just him talking about some plan they had to overthrow the Organization - that's him remembering why it's Lea he had this plan with.
And unless that too is also another localization mishap, Axel talked about his friendship with Isa in the reports. How being with Roxas and Xion makes him remember of his childhood with Isa. So in light of that comparison, assuming it holds - they WERE friends.

 

[Goldpanner]

However, Saix doesn't seem to be straightforward with Axel about everything. If you want to believe the novels, Saix tells him 'Xemnas' order', to dispose of traitors, and Axel figures everything else out for himself.

Also, he is manipulative.

Day 298 – Change of Plans (Saix)
Axel did not report the encounter between the Organization member impersonator and Xion. It was Roxas who reported it. Is it easier to deal with Roxas than Axel? Axel captured Xion and brought her back. It’s uncertain what on earth Axel is thinking. A change of plans is possible, but, it puts our goal further off.

See how he is wondering whether he's better off 'dealing with', or manipulating Roxas... rather than Axel? I can believe that Saix knows how Axel thinks he feels about his 'friends', and is trying to manipulate Axel accordingly. He obviously wants Xion gone, at least at the point in time he said this, and could be trying to use Axel's 'feelings' for Roxas as an advantage in his argument.

The usage of 'friendship' doesn't hold to me, yet, because they have never used the word 'friend', and just as you said, that is very important in KH. Not even in that famitsu scan; where they could have said they were friends, all it said was 'despite having opposite personalities, they appear to get on.'

In the secret reports, the one word Axel uses to refer to his old relationship with Saix is なかま. That's more like 'comrade' or 'fellow-something' than a proper 'friend'. They don't even use 友達, let alone 親友.

The word 'friend' is CENTRAL to KH. That's what makes it so interesting when Xemnas says it to Aqua's armour. Yet... they never apply it to Axel and Saix, let alone Lea and Isa, which really makes it stand out to me.

Idk, maybe it's a feeling that only comes across in Japanese. I'm not ruling out that it will turn out to be that way in BbS, and, if it does come out that they were best of buddies, I'm not going to be upset or anything! But, at this point in time, we have no evidence that they were, or would refer to their relationship as, 'friends'.

Which was the whole point of what we were talking about: what Saix was talking about in that scene--in either case, it wasn't his and Axel's friendship, whether they had one or not.

 

[Fractured_Heart628]

I've seen that scene with Saix and Axel. I think he was talking about his friendship with Roxas and Xion being fake and his friendship with Axel as a human being real. I've also scene an event in the game, although it isn't in Theatre Mode, Saix says to himself while Axel has Xion in his arms and Roxas is walking next to him, "Does the past mean nothing to you?"

 

[Smile]

The thing is, goldpanner... you explained why the usage of friendship is the correct one beyond the shadow of a doubt.
Saix might not care about it but you said it yourself - he was aiming at manipulating Axel. I'd call that an almost successful attempt, especially with saying his real name at the end. Almost.

 

[Riku Fan1415]

Well, let's think of it this way:

1. Why would he bring up "the past" if he was only referring to some plan the Organization had concerning Roxas, especially if they were still in the process of working on that plan?

2. Why would he use Axel's original name (Lea), if he wasn't referring to their past friendship?

 

[NumberVIII]

The thing is, goldpanner... you explained why the usage of friendship is the correct one beyond the shadow of a doubt.
Saix might not care about it but you said it yourself - he was aiming at manipulating Axel. I'd call that an almost successful attempt, especially with saying his real name at the end. Almost.

Wait, so you're saying that Saïx didn't care about their past "friendship" or camaraderie or whatever you want to call it, but he was using it to manipulate Axel by guilting him? That makes the most sense to me.

 

[Smile]

I think Saix did care about it in some sense. But he didn't have Axel's circumstances (Roxas, CO, whatev) so he was... a Nobody about it.

 

[luna1017]

I'm not sure. I always thought that Saix was referring to his friendship with Axel.

 

[ThePromise]

I believe Saix meant his friendship with Axel and not Roxas.

 

[kolaida]

I thought he was referring to Axel's friendship with Roxas versus his friendship with Xion, the puppet. It's made pretty clear that one of them will have to be terminated.

I took Saix calling him "Lea" as a way of kind of silently accusing him, "Would you choose a puppet over me as well then?"

 

[Smile]

I thought he was referring to Axel's friendship with Roxas versus his friendship with Xion, the puppet. It's made pretty clear that one of them will have to be terminated.

Only both those friendships, as they're shared by Nobodies, would be "fake", so that's not what Saix was talking about.

I took Saix calling him "Lea" as a way of kind of silently accusing him, "Would you choose a puppet over me as well then?"

I think that's what makes it make sense that with the "real friendship" he was talking about him and Axel, as it shows they're Somebodies knew each other, and a friendship shared between Somebodies is a real one.

 

[Goldpanner]

I thought he was referring to Axel's friendship with Roxas versus his friendship with Xion, the puppet. It's made pretty clear that one of them will have to be terminated.

I took Saix calling him "Lea" as a way of kind of silently accusing him, "Would you choose a puppet over me as well then?"

Yeah, that's what I think.

Only both those friendships, as they're shared by Nobodies, would be "fake", so that's not what Saix was talking about.

But, he was only calling one of those relationships fake.

Your worthless make-believe friendship, or the termination of Roxas. Which one is more important?