Namine's Origin

[Smile]

It's easier to just leave her a nobody

Reread the theory then. It makes no sense for her to have been a Nobody, and AtW, the one whose words we're basing on when saying she's a Nobody, in fact, isn't even sure that's what she is.

what origin..kairi pooped her out zzz

1) Sora popped her out.
2) We're discussing what was popped out, and why what we've been told makes no sense.

I don't understand. :/
You said it isn't an Unbirth theory, but that doesn't tie in to how you think Namine is an Unbirth?

Beacuse I didn't come to explain Unbirths, simply show there was a possibility. Namine's birth (lol pun?) is, as far as we know, a one-time event. That led to her effectively being not a Nobody, as AtW abundantly repeats to us. What is she then? I offered another option on a theoretical level.

And she accepted that. She was quite clearly Kairi's other, without any doubt. Saying that she's an Unbirth rather than a Nobody defeats the purpose of a Nobody being the one who's "another you."

She was Kairi's "shadow", not Other, and even Roxas in the original Japanese never said "Other". In fact, we don't know what Sora was to him since that sentence was cut short.

Well, of course it puts her aside from the other Nobodies. But it's just her own personal preference. Roxas accepted his fate too and wasn't like "I want to be my own complete self, gimme a heart."

Uh, but Roxas went by what any other Nobody we've seen so far said. Namine never gave squat about her own Heart as much as wanting to exist inside one. The Organization never really bothered with that.

And after all, I'd imagine the Nobody of a Princess of Hearts to be different in outlook anyway.

Which is half of the what this theory is basing on - that she's that different that she isn't a Nobody.

Or CO to be dealt with in BbS.
It did appear before the Organization, as Nomura said. So it's more of a question of its past than its future.
Wasn't there that whole controversy about whether CO is still around? Namine had that picture of Axel in the Castle what looked like it burning down. The purpose in CO was to find the Room of Awakening, anyway, it wasn't Namine centric. And since it was never brought up in KH2, one might guess that they could have... accomplished that task, and didn't need the Castle anymore.

BBS would be the introduction, I think. After all, they left it around long enough for it to reappear in CoM.
Either way, off topic. I don't wanna get into this discussion here nor is it really relevant :\

But there was only a one-year gap between BBS and the Heartless taking over Radiant Garden. I'm just saying that he should've known more about them. As the leader, he had an obligation to know what was threatening his community, and how to deal with it. Even if his solution was, "Let the Keyblade wielders handle this," he would still need to know what the situtation was before arriving at that conclusion.

From the scene with Mickey in KH2, it seemed like he knew enough without knowing it all. Which means Mickey could still stop him before it was too late, and then the one that went the further distance was Xehanort. Yet, again, by that time - the end result were Heartless and Nobodies, not Unbirths.

Riku wanted to play in the snow? What part was this? I didn't even know they had snow on Destiny Islands, lol!

Because it wasn't on Destiny Islands. It was when Sora was chasing him in the Land of Dragons.

But if the Unbirths were just being created, why do Terra and Aqua act as though hearts of pure light are a new concept to them? The timing's just off.

Think of it this way - if everyone had them, why would someone think they're special? Then something happened to make them yes special and noticable.

Just because she accepted it doesn't mean it's true. How much life experience has she really had? Her whole existence, she's been under a more powerful person's surveillance, someone who only wants her around so he can take advantage of her powers. First it was Marluxia, then it was DiZ. They both think she's a Nobody, and she has no reason not to believe them.

She's definitely a part of Kairi, or she wouldn't have been able to merge back with her. For the time being, we assume that's because Namine is Kairi's Nobody. But we don't know what an Unbirth is, so technically it's still possible to say that she could be something else.

:loveit:

Actually, on the surface, the experiments in Castle Oblivion had everything to do with Namine. Xemnas wanted to learn more about memories and their connections to the heart. I think looking for the Room of Awakening was a secret reason for going.

Actually, some of the translations I've read of Another Report possibly hint towards Namine's powers affecting more than just Sora and the people related to him, but more everyone that went into Castle Oblivion at large. :x I mean, if they really couldn't use her on anyone other than Sora, why use her at all? She'd be useless until Sora showed up unless they had her secretly studying up Roxas's lost Memories or something, but that's not quite how they presented it.

 

[blitz gene]

i dont know about namine being an unbirth considering that they are extinct and not shown in the other kh titles out in stores.i think your wrong about namine being an unbirth thing, sorry.

 

[Smile]

i dont know about namine being an unbirth considering that they are extinct and not shown in the other kh titles out in stores.i think your wrong about namine being an unbirth thing, sorry.

We don't know they're extinct. Also, look at the two reasons I presented which might've caused them - those circumstances are all but extinct too compared with the past (Keyblades having the second Heart, people having Pure Hearts, etc).
To top it all, look at KH1 - we've never seen a single Nobody there but they indeed existed. We were just never shown them.

 

[Rix]

Exactly. And I'm sure that theres a reason that will be explained in BBS why the unbirths have been absent in KH games so far. And if they will appear in KH3, there will also be a reason for that. As I've said before, theres not much we know about the unbirths so far. (almost) Anything can be possible.

 

[gelandporn]

Just because she accepted it doesn't mean it's true. How much life experience has she really had? Her whole existence, she's been under a more powerful person's surveillance, someone who only wants her around so he can take advantage of her powers. First it was Marluxia, then it was DiZ. They both think she's a Nobody, and she has no reason not to believe them.

She's definitely a part of Kairi, or she wouldn't have been able to merge back with her. For the time being, we assume that's because Namine is Kairi's Nobody. But we don't know what an Unbirth is, so technically it's still possible to say that she could be something else.

No, see, it's not just because she accepted that, it's because that has been presented as a fact. Namine IS Kairi's Nobody, and it's not even a matter of assuming. Because this is a fact of the game, we know that. Does it not mean that Namine could be something else upon finding out in the near future? No, but for all intents and purposes there's nothing to be assumed, only to be known.

Roxas wanted to be his own person too. He said to DiZ, "NO! My heart belongs to ME!" And in the battle with Riku, when Sora is mentioned, he says almost the same thing: "Why do you keep talking about him? I'm myself! I'm ME!" He doesn't like just being Sora's Nobody, and who can blame him? Like Namine, he is valued only for his abilities, for what he can give other people. So I think they both want to move away from their origins, so people appreciate them for who they are.

I was talking about him accepting his fate in the end- which is what he did. He never even tried getting his own heart.

What picture was that? I don't remember seeing that one.

Actually, on the surface, the experiments in Castle Oblivion had everything to do with Namine. Xemnas wanted to learn more about memories and their connections to the heart. I think looking for the Room of Awakening was a secret reason for going.

In the White Room, there's a picture Namine drew of Axel in Castle Oblivion with the walls and shit burning. It did not look like a battle or anything, it looked like he was burning it down. There was a huge controversy about that a while ago, actually.

The purpose of CO had absolutely nothing to do with Namine- she was just a convenient asset that they happened to stumble upon. In fact, even the superficial reason for CO only had Namine as a tool and not as something to be revolved around- Nomura said that the Castle was for the 13 Organization members to use for tests on memories. The Room of Awakening was a secret reason, yes, but it was the TRUE reason for CO. "Also, there is an additional scene where Xigbar talks about the "true goal of Castle Oblivion" and when this particular scene appears, I think all mystery surrounding castle Oblivion should become clear."
The true goal is the Room of Awakening.

Beacuse I didn't come to explain Unbirths, simply show there was a possibility. Namine's birth (lol pun?) is, as far as we know, a one-time event. That led to her effectively being not a Nobody, as AtW abundantly repeats to us. What is she then? I offered another option on a theoretical level.

Yes, but all it really says is that she is a special kind of Nobody, ie:
"Because there is already a detailed explanation of Roxas and Namine being special Nobodies in this volume, please read the specific details there. I'll summarize it so its easy to understand. Essentially when a strong hearted person has their heart stolen, they change into a heartless, and on rare occasions thier body changes into a Nobody. But in the case for these two, for Kairi's heart to be hidden within Sora, it took a special shape. Moreover, when Sora himself was changed into a heartless he was purified by Kairi. In order for Sora to be revived without following the essential course, the special way Roxas and Namine were born from these types, special Nobodies ended up being left behind. Still, I get the feeling from the story so far that Xemnas might also be a special Nobody."
I don't think Nomura would constantly refer to Namine as a Nobody with such clarity if there were room for her being something else. Yes, his explanations are vague, but that's all there is to, it's just open to interpretation as to exactly how she became a special Nobody. I like to see it as this- she wasn't born comprised of a body or soul, but used Sora's body and soul as a catalyst to initiate the process of a Nobody being born. Because Nobodies are non existent (and thus technically don't need a body and soul since they ARE nothing) and because the body and soul went to Roxas, one could say that she was born of the process of Kairi's heart being released from Sora's body.

She was Kairi's "shadow", not Other, and even Roxas in the original Japanese never said "Other". In fact, we don't know what Sora was to him since that sentence was cut short.

Namine: Believe in yourself!
Roxas: Yeah, you and I got to meet our Original Selves
They are Sora and Kairi's "others." "Another you." There can be no dispute over that.

Uh, but Roxas went by what any other Nobody we've seen so far said. Namine never gave squat about her own Heart as much as wanting to exist inside one. The Organization never really bothered with that.

Probably because she came from a person with absolutely no darkness- meaning that she would naturally inherit some of those selfless kind of traits.

Which is half of the what this theory is basing on - that she's that different that she isn't a Nobody.

Or just a really special one.

BBS would be the introduction, I think. After all, they left it around long enough for it to reappear in CoM.
Either way, off topic. I don't wanna get into this discussion here nor is it really relevant :\

Well, it is somewhat relevant since we're posing the question of how Namine is significant with CO- something I've explained to Organization 42.

And I think CO is getting too much credit. BbS would be more than enough to finalize CO's appearances, especially considering that Nomura thinks all the mysteries should be cleared about CO after seeing The Truth about the Chamber of Sleep cutscene. And since that cutscene deals with the past, yeah, BbS. In any case, the word CO hasn't even been mentioned in either of the main installments. It would be an odd time to incorporate it into KH3.

Think of it this way - if everyone had them, why would someone think they're special? Then something happened to make them yes special and noticable.

It's not presented in that manner. Terra was saying along the lines of "This must be one of those beings with pure hearts they were talking about."
And, again, it wouldn't make sense to have so many beings of pure light to not involve the Disney characters. Nor would it to have kids of pure light with the exception of people like Snow White and Aurora- who are not children.

The way I see it is this; BbS is using the terminology "beings with pure hearts" at the moment as a substitute to Princesses of Heart. We know that Snow White is one of the beings with pure hearts, and a Princess of Heart. It would not surprise me at all if BbS delved into the origin of the term "Princess of Hearts," possibly showing how Maleficent came to know about the 7 beings with pure hearts.

 

[Smile]

for Kairi's heart to be hidden within Sora, it took a special shape.

This. For starters.

Well, you said to look at the reports saying Namine is a Nobody. And that's part of why I find it hard to accept it, quotes and explanations given in the topic post. AtW said so, but he also said that no, Namine never became a Nobody. QFT in the topic post.
And Nobodies don't exist not because they're not made up of anything, but because they have no one to be. That too was explained - the "Existence" the Nobodies lack isn't the physical existence, otherwise they'd have been called "Nothings" and not "Nobodies". What they're lacking is the Identity the Heart posed, only it's gone now.
Namine going literally by the definition you presented - the literal definition of lacking "existence" would mean, by the ironic definitions given to both the terms Heartless and Nobodies, that no, Namine isn't a Nobody.
The Nobodies need their Bodies and Soul; without them, they fade to Darkness. Heck they still fade to Darkness, but what fades to Darkness? The Body and Soul which have been transformed by the Darkness. They're not made up something from nothing. Therefore, Namine being made up of this would support the notion that she's something else.

As for CO getting too much credit, you said yourself they were out to get the Room of Awakening. Seeing how KH2 is the latest game we have, unless they wrap that up in Days, we can still expect to see it (seeing how Coded, the only post-KH2 game we have, actually flashbacks to KH1 time).

 

[gelandporn]

This. For starters.

Well, you said to look at the reports saying Namine is a Nobody. And that's part of why I find it hard to accept it, quotes and explanations given in the topic post. AtW said so, but he also said that no, Namine never became a Nobody. QFT in the topic post.
And Nobodies don't exist not because they're not made up of anything, but because they have no one to be. That too was explained - the "Existence" the Nobodies lack isn't the physical existence, otherwise they'd have been called "Nothings" and not "Nobodies". What they're lacking is the Identity the Heart posed, only it's gone now.
Namine going literally by the definition you presented - the literal definition of lacking "existence" would mean, by the ironic definitions given to both the terms Heartless and Nobodies, that no, Namine isn't a Nobody.
The Nobodies need their Bodies and Soul; without them, they fade to Darkness. Heck they still fade to Darkness, but what fades to Darkness? The Body and Soul which have been transformed by the Darkness. They're not made up something from nothing. Therefore, Namine being made up of this would support the notion that she's something else.

As for CO getting too much credit, you said yourself they were out to get the Room of Awakening. Seeing how KH2 is the latest game we have, unless they wrap that up in Days, we can still expect to see it (seeing how Coded, the only post-KH2 game we have, actually flashbacks to KH1 time).

He says that Namine never became a Nobody, but he doubles back on himself and later says with confidence that she is. She's just special. He was even originally posing at the time that Namine came directly from Kairi and not from Sora.

You misunderstand my explanation of Namine. I never said Nobodies were nothing because they weren't made of anything. We know for a fact that as a general rule Nobodies are comprised of what was once the body and soul. I said Namine came about only from the process of Kairi's heart being released. All Nobodies are the biproduct of a heart being released. She just lacked the body and soul of that process, making her special.

And while we can tangibly perceive them, they still don't exist. Their "physical" manifestation can be considered a false sense of reality. Take, if you will, for example, the concept of solipsism. Solipsism basically says that only the self exists (derived from Descartes' "I think, therefore I am"... you're the only one that you know can think). I can sense you, but you do not universally exist. Apply that kind of philosophy to Nobodies.

Nobody and Nothing are interchangeable since Nobodies are given shape by the "element" of Nothing.
"We Nothings must be the same- eternal."

Going by the normal definition of a Nobody, yes, a body and soul are needed, but it's been said countless times that Namine is not a normal Nobody. She is a Nobody in the broadest sense- the other nonexistent self left over from Kairi's heart being released, but not normal.

 

[Smile]

He says that Namine never became a Nobody, but he doubles back on himself and later says with confidence that she is. She's just special. He was even originally posing at the time that Namine came directly from Kairi and not from Sora.

Which is part of why I'm saying it doesn't make sense :I as a Nobody, Namine coming from Kairi means she came when AtW first theorized, not when Roxas was formed.

You misunderstand my explanation of Namine. I never said Nobodies were nothing because they weren't made of anything. We know for a fact that as a general rule Nobodies are comprised of what was once the body and soul. I said Namine came about only from the process of Kairi's heart being released. All Nobodies are the biproduct of a heart being released. She just lacked the body and soul of that process, making her special.

Which again makes me ask how is that possible. I'm sorry, but again, "Shadow" or whatever - she needs to be made of something. Darkness even. Any other explanation though wouldn't quite leave her as a Nobody. I agree, made of the same process, but I refuse to call it the same end result.
Agree to disagree on this point then?

And while we can tangibly perceive them, they still don't exist. Their "physical" manifestation can be considered a false sense of reality. Take, if you will, for example, the concept of solipsism. Solipsism basically says that only the self exists (derived from Descartes' "I think, therefore I am"... you're the only one that you know can think). I can sense you, but you do not universally exist. Apply that kind of philosophy to Nobodies.

Um, I can't help but think back to Riku asking Roxas if he can "feel" Sora, which would have it be that the "perception" you speak of would apply to the Heart. Also, the Heart is in fact the Self in KH, so I have to disagree on this point.

Nobody and Nothing are interchangeable since Nobodies are given shape by the "element" of Nothing.
"We Nothings must be the same- eternal."

I know it's been said, but again, I disagree with your definition of existence.

Going by the normal definition of a Nobody, yes, a body and soul are needed, but it's been said countless times that Namine is not a normal Nobody. She is a Nobody in the broadest sense- the other nonexistent self left over from Kairi's heart being released, but not normal.

Which kind of ties in nicely with the many definitions we can give to "Unbirths". Also would tie in with her unique "element", etc.
But I think we really did reach the point where we can agree you disagree with this theory and stop scaring people away with walls of text xD
I can't accept her being a Nobody; you can. This is what it all comes down to.

 

[gelandporn]

Which is part of why I'm saying it doesn't make sense :I as a Nobody, Namine coming from Kairi means she came when AtW first theorized, not when Roxas was formed.

I'm not sure what you're saying. He thought she came when Kairi lost her heart, but she actually came when Sora lost Kairi's heart.

Which again makes me ask how is that possible. I'm sorry, but again, "Shadow" or whatever - she needs to be made of something. Darkness even. Any other explanation though wouldn't quite leave her as a Nobody. I agree, made of the same process, but I refuse to call it the same end result.
Agree to disagree on this point then?

You can't accept something abstract to exist (in a non existent form- you understand what I'm saying, the whole concept of to be perceived but not to be)? Take Namine as... I don't know, an idea like justice. It's debatable whether justice universally exists, some think so, others don't.

And if you really want something tangible to be thought of, just consider Namine to consist of the Darkness and Nothingness involved in the process. Yes, we know Nobodies are comprised of Darkness, as shown by Lexaeus (talking about his power).

Um, I can't help but think back to Riku asking Roxas if he can "feel" Sora, which would have it be that the "perception" you speak of would apply to the Heart. Also, the Heart is in fact the Self in KH, so I have to disagree on this point.

Ugh.
That was just an example, just to give you a better idea of the concept of non-existence being presented. I wasn't saying that KH revolves around solipsism. As we know in KH, just because you think doesn't mean you exist.

Which kind of ties in nicely with the many definitions we can give to "Unbirths". Also would tie in with her unique "element", etc.
But I think we really did reach the point where we can agree you disagree with this theory and stop scaring people away with walls of text xD
I can't accept her being a Nobody; you can. This is what it all comes down to.

That just doesn't sit well with me though. You're filling in a theory with a missing premise. Like this:

Phase One: Collect Underpants.
Phase Two: ...?....
Phase Three: Profit.

And now you can't accept that Namine is a Nobody? C'mon SA. :[
What's so convincing about this that you believe it over what has already been established? I don't care if you think it's possible, hell I don't care if you think it's probable. But not accepting Namine as a Nobody?

 

[Smile]

And now you can't accept that Namine is a Nobody? C'mon SA. :[

I couldn't accept Namine being a Nobody from the day I knew when she was conceived.
I could've remotely accepted it had it happened when AtW Originally did, but that's obviously not the case. Namine being a Nobody is something I've had issues with for a small forever, and no, not because she's Kairi's.
Even if I go by your words, a Nobody = Body + Soul. Seeing how even by your logic she's lacking those, sorry. She could be a lot of things, including a true Shadow, but not a Nobody. Tagging it as "special" isn't good enough for me.
To top it all, my good sir -
Where was it said that what you described, in and of itself, isn't what Unbirths are? And Namine, already based as made up to maintain human form, simply did so?
Nothing.
Possibility holds.

What's so convincing about this that you believe it over what has already been established? I don't care if you think it's possible, hell I don't care if you think it's probable. But not accepting Namine as a Nobody?

Because, in case you missed me repeatedly saying it, no, Namine being a Nobody isn't something I can logically grasp. She isn't an ideal like Justice. Justice doesn't walk and talk to people and mess with their Memories. Justice doesn't have a form people can see and touch. Another broken example by you, but seeing how long it took me to get people to shut up about the ones I brought up, I've the right to complain.
I also already presented why to me it hasn't been established. Thoroughly. You disagreeing with me doesn't mean I'm toying with you or stomping my foot down. I just sincerely can't accept the way things have been presented thus far.
AtW is biased.
AtW probably didn't know enough about Unbirths if he knew they were separate from the Heartless and the Nobodies.
Nomura doesn't talk about Unbirths even now when the game's been confirmed, as opposed to Nobodies which were a fact since CoM and the first final mix - meaning, before the game that was supposed to have them centered. Unbirths didn't have such grace, so Nomura saying repeatedly that Namine is a "painfully-special Nobody" instead of sneaking around it isn't an argument that could sway me.

It really saddens me since from how you put it, it's obvious this theory and your failure in convincing me away from it has made you think less of me. Not much I can do about it though, seeing how what differs us is difference in belief and how to interpret what's been said. I mean, it's not even denying that Xehanort or AtW or Nomura said what they said, it's us debating about what they said and how it connects to various events - which is exactly what debating theories is all about.

I'm calling this off as agreeing to disagree, and hope to see you again in the next theory either of us would conjure :3

 

[gelandporn]

I couldn't accept Namine being a Nobody from the day I knew when she was conceived.
I could've remotely accepted it had it happened when AtW Originally did, but that's obviously not the case. Namine being a Nobody is something I've had issues with for a small forever, and no, not because she's Kairi's.
Even if I go by your words, a Nobody = Body + Soul. Seeing how even by your logic she's lacking those, sorry. She could be a lot of things, including a true Shadow, but not a Nobody. Tagging it as "special" isn't good enough for me.
To top it all, my good sir -
Where was it said that what you described, in and of itself, isn't what Unbirths are? And Namine, already based as made up to maintain human form, simply did so?
Nothing.
Possibility holds.

Argumentum Ad Ignorantiam love- just because something hasn't been disproved doesn't mean you can use it in a context as if it was proven (ie what Unbirths are- it's a logical fallacy used in debate). But it has been disproved. Actually, it hasn't. It didn't need to be, because the knowledge of what Namine is has already been established.

And I already said that was a general term for Nobodies. As I said, to be more precise, a Nobody is the "other" non-existent self left over when a heart is released. If Roxas has a heart as speculated- does that mean he isn't Sora's Nobody? Nope, even though that isn't in the slightest bit conventional and goes against that definition (I could go into why he would still be a Nobody, what with it not being Sora's heart, thus not making him exist and whatnot, but you get the picture). Similarly, Xemnas, for whatever reason, has been suggested to be a special Nobody by Nomura. He's still a Nobody.

Because, in case you missed me repeatedly saying it, no, Namine being a Nobody isn't something I can logically grasp. She isn't an ideal like Justice. Justice doesn't walk and talk to people and mess with their Memories. Justice doesn't have a form people can see and touch. Another broken example by you, but seeing how long it took me to get people to shut up about the ones I brought up, I've the right to complain.
I also already presented why to me it hasn't been established. Thoroughly. You disagreeing with me doesn't mean I'm toying with you or stomping my foot down. I just sincerely can't accept the way things have been presented thus far.
AtW is biased.
AtW probably didn't know enough about Unbirths if he knew they were separate from the Heartless and the Nobodies.
Nomura doesn't talk about Unbirths even now when the game's been confirmed, as opposed to Nobodies which were a fact since CoM and the first final mix - meaning, before the game that was supposed to have them centered. Unbirths didn't have such grace, so Nomura saying repeatedly that Namine is a "painfully-special Nobody" instead of sneaking around it isn't an argument that could sway me.

It really saddens me since from how you put it, it's obvious this theory and your failure in convincing me away from it has made you think less of me. Not much I can do about it though, seeing how what differs us is difference in belief and how to interpret what's been said. I mean, it's not even denying that Xehanort or AtW or Nomura said what they said, it's us debating about what they said and how it connects to various events - which is exactly what debating theories is all about.

I'm calling this off as agreeing to disagree, and hope to see you again in the next theory either of us would conjure :3

It... wasn't a broken example. All I was doing was trying to convey that her existence is more abstract- you were taking it out of context.

Of course AtW is biased. Nomura isn't though. Well, no, he probably is, but it's coming from him, not just from an in game character who's racist against Nobodies. Hell, you're biased. Just look at the reason you came up with this! Nomura saying that isn't an argument, it's just a fact. No, I'm not trying to shove that in your face, but it's not like it is a theory, or able to be interpreted in more than one way.

I don't know where you got the idea that I "think less of" you, but you're mistaken. Perhaps it's because you haven't been on the receiving ends of my arguments like this, but I think you can ask just about anyone that I'm an asshole of a persistent person when it comes to defending something. All I'm doing is scrutinizing your idea, and, hey, I've gotten more than enough of that with all the theories I've came up with (Old theories thread?). It really isn't fair just to call it off. You can choose to think less of me for that, I wouldn't blame you, but that's just how I roll.

 

[Genocide]

Perhaps it's because you haven't been on the receiving ends of my arguments like this, but I think you can ask just about anyone that I'm an asshole of a persistent person when it comes to defending something. All I'm doing is scrutinizing your idea, and, hey, I've gotten more than enough of that with all the theories I've came up with (Old theories thread?). It really isn't fair just to call it off. You can choose to think less of me for that, I wouldn't blame you, but that's just how I roll.

Well put Gracey.

 

[SilverJ-17]

He says that Namine never became a Nobody, but he doubles back on himself and later says with confidence that she is. She's just special. He was even originally posing at the time that Namine came directly from Kairi and not from Sora.

Can't denial exist in KH? Maybe, Ansem somehow knew about Unbirths and didn't want to believe that one could even still exist. Maybe, he knew (or believed) that they were far more horrible than what exists at the present. Alternately, maybe he didn't want to believe that there was something else besides a nobody or a heartless, something that he had no idea about. Maybe, he had to know that there was only heartless and nobodies (and regular people.. but I didn't feel like mentioing this before..), nothing else. Oh, and by know, I mean he wanted to believe that the process of losing a heart was clear cut thing.. Heartless and Nobody.. nothing else..

Personally, I think denial also might be a factor in the scene where Riku says that Xion's keyblade is a fake, but let's not get off-topic.

 

[Smile]

Yey TGS.

Xion - a special Nobody that looks and sounds like Kairi.

Xion: "Do I not exist?"
Axel: "What do you want to do, Xion?"
Xion: "I... I want to be together with two people."
Roxas: "Well, then come back."
Xion: "... But I can't return as it is now. How is it possible for two people to be the same?"

[together with] Two people - Sora and Riku.
Two people to be the same - Xion and Kairi. A question remains why she thought there would be two instead of her disappearing into Kairi like Namine and Roxas did into Kairi and Sora, yet we'll assume for now that only became a fact -
1) After Roxas did so with Sora in KH2, or
2) When Xion herelf was the first to do so in Days, thus 'returning' to Kairi!!!

Xion: "Will you tell me about it? About Sora, about Sora and the girl he's always together with."
Riku: "You mean Kairi?"
Xion: "Kairi... The girl looks like me."

Again, obvious similarities. They wouldn't have said they look the same if it wasn't true even beyond game graphics.

That would make it so that Kairi didn't only have a Nobody out of thin air, but also - two Nobodies.
Excuse me while I find that painfully hard to believe.

 

[SilverJ-17]

Even if they were to post scans of Xion's face tommorow, I think they've just created a bigger mystery to make up for the scans. I mean, now we'll want to know whether she really is Kairi's nobody and if so, how did Kairi have a second nobody. Hmm..

Roxas = came into existance after Sora's heart basically fell to pieces..
Namine = came into existance after Kairi's heart left Sora
Xion = Assuming she is indeed Kairi's nobody.......?

Yep, we got a mystery on our hands. Btw... I've looked on the front page just before getting on, so I already read the snippets in your post. Man.. I can't wait for Days to come out, even if it isn't as good, game-play/ graphic-wise as BBS, it's still got a good share of mysteries. Both games seem to be screaming that they're going to have a great storyline, as does Coded, but since it's a cellphone game at the moment, I don't have as much care for it. It's still sounding pretty good, but I'd rather not play games on cellphones.

 

[Smile]

Even if they were to post scans of Xion's face tommorow, I think they've just created a bigger mystery to make up for the scans. I mean, now we'll want to know whether she really is Kairi's nobody and if so, how did Kairi have a second nobody. Hmm..

I think that the only way out of her being Kairi's Nobody in light of what we've seen thus far is her being based on Sora's Memories, based on how his Memories are messed up worse than we thought.

Roxas = came into existance after Sora's heart basically fell to pieces..
Namine = came into existance after Kairi's heart left Sora
Xion = Assuming she is indeed Kairi's nobody.......?

I tend to believe DiZ got served. The reason he said Namine was created when Roxas was and not his initial theory of Namine being born when the Islands went poof was because that process lacked a Heartless.
And yet that's the only occasion we know of that makes any sort of sense for Kairi to have spawned a Nobody. Her Heart did leave two Bodies, after all, and that's the 'second' time.

Both games seem to be screaming that they're going to have a great storyline, as does Coded,

Duh, Watanabe games.

 

[Reneeski]

I think that the only way out of her being Kairi's Nobody in light of what we've seen thus far is her being based on Sora's Memories, based on how his Memories are messed up worse than we thought.



I tend to believe DiZ got served. The reason he said Namine was created when Roxas was and not his initial theory of Namine being born when the Islands went poof was because that process lacked a Heartless.
And yet that's the only occasion we know of that makes any sort of sense for Kairi to have spawned a Nobody. Her Heart did leave two Bodies, after all, and that's the 'second' time.



Duh, Watanabe games.

SA wins again

 

[SilverJ-17]

I think that the only way out of her being Kairi's Nobody in light of what we've seen thus far is her being based on Sora's Memories, based on how his Memories are messed up worse than we thought.

I tend to believe DiZ got served. The reason he said Namine was created when Roxas was and not his initial theory of Namine being born when the Islands went poof was because that process lacked a Heartless.
And yet that's the only occasion we know of that makes any sort of sense for Kairi to have spawned a Nobody. Her Heart did leave two Bodies, after all, and that's the 'second' time.

Duh, Watanabe games.

Lol.. at how DiZ might have been served. Actually, if Xion is indeed Kairi's nobody, I could see how Namine would be the first one, because she's the least nobody-ish and lacks both a body and a soul, which nobodies are supposedly made of. Xion probably would be the result of Kairi's heart leaving Sora's body. That actually makes sense imo, as Xion has or can wield a keyblade, (if she really did "take it" from Roxas, like some of the TGS reports mentioned..).. which is a trait of Sora's. Hmm.. it does seem to together well.

Xion: Female heart.. female nobody.. However, since she might of been the result of Kairi's heart leaving Sora's body, one or more of Sora's traits crossed over to her. (Xion)

Ehh.. I noticed that Grace Assassin had posted how the unbirth logo looks a bit like the memory thing for CoM and a broken one if that.. If that holds any truth, then Namine being an unbirth might be likely, as the fact that the CoM memory thing being broken and crossed might mean a being, lacking memories and reverted to a "primitive and demonic" form. (unbirth) Lol.. that could actually somewhat tie in my theory with yours. I so can't wait for all three of those KH games..

 

[Smile]

Lol.. at how DiZ might have been served. Actually, if Xion is indeed Kairi's nobody, I could see how Namine would be the first one, because she's the least nobody-ish and lacks both a body and a soul, which nobodies are supposedly made of.

Which wouldn't make her a Nobody at all, imo XD hence the theory in this thread.

Xion probably would be the result of Kairi's heart leaving Sora's body.

But that's been confirmed to have been Namine :\ Namine and Roxas were created at the same time, unless Xion was too. If that's true, Nomura someone will die.

That actually makes sense imo, as Xion has or can wield a keyblade, (if she really did "take it" from Roxas, like some of the TGS reports mentioned..).. which is a trait of Sora's. Hmm.. it does seem to together well.

Alternatively, she could've wielded it in a manner like how Kairi used the Keyblade Riku gave her in KH2, until explain us how that happened better than "Ah, she's a PoH and Riku was willing, so *shrug*"

Xion: Female heart.. female nobody.. However, since she might of been the result of Kairi's heart leaving Sora's body, one or more of Sora's traits crossed over to her. (Xion)

But again, that's Namine unless someone needs to be killed. And Namine as far as we know couldn't wield a Keyblade (though I do like to ponder maybe Namine did get Wielding powers, and then when she disappeared into Kairi for the first time after meeting with Riku, Kairi got that ability from her).

Ehh.. I noticed that Grace Assassin had posted how the unbirth logo looks a bit like the memory thing for CoM and a broken one if that.. If that holds any truth, then Namine being an unbirth might be likely, as the fact that the CoM memory thing being broken and crossed might mean a being, lacking memories and reverted to a "primitive and demonic" form. (unbirth) Lol.. that could actually somewhat tie in my theory with yours. I so can't wait for all three of those KH games..

:3 <3

 

[Starburstify]

I found this passage Naminé - Kingdom Hearts Wiki - A world of information not accessible by Gummiship
and it seemed to answer some of the things that you were questioning

"Naminé is the Nobody of Kairi, and wields the power to manipulate the memories of Sora and those close to him. Her first appearance is in Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories. She also plays a minor role in Kingdom Hearts II and appears in some cutscenes in Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days. The first part of her name, nami means "ocean wave" in Japanese, similar to Kairi's name, which is derived from the word for "sea".
Naminé was born when Sora stabbed himself with Ansem's artificial Keyblade in order to return Kairi's heart to her body. This made Naminé a very strange Nobody, born from Kairi's heart and Sora's body and soul. Kairi's own body never became a Nobody because her heart lacked darkness (since she was one of the Princesses of Heart), so her body and soul were never able to leave the Realm of Light and thus made it seem like Kairi was in a comatose state until she regained her heart.

However, this means that Naminé was also born without Kairi's memories, only furthering her status as an unusual entity. Yet she and Kairi are incomplete without each other, similar to Sora and Roxas. Because of the fact that Naminé is formed from Sora's body, she has the power to manipulate his memories as well as the memories of those who are connected to him, prompting several others, even herself, to call her a "witch". Ansem the Wise stated in his ninth Secret Ansem Report that Naminé is a highly unusual Nobody, due to possessing neither the body nor the memories that a Nobody is usually made from."