M.O.M. Is officially returning. What are your thoughts for the next game about this?



REGISTER TO REMOVE ADS
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
551
Age
21
Location
Georiga
  • 15th Anniversary
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 2.5 ReMIX
Supposedly there's gonna be another game before kingdom hearts 4. Maybe it's something like coded. All in all i'm just excited his confirmed, alive (knew it), and has a bigger roles than xehanort. Share your theories and speculation.
 

Sora2016

Silver Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
4,548
Location
United States
  • Theatrhythm: Final Fantasy
  • Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance
I may be jumping on the Dream Drop Distance 2 thing with Sora and Riku being the only people shown, the weird implication that Sora is seeing what is around Riku in a puddle, and then of course TWEWY being involved again.

I guess all I can think right now is that MoM is involved with the Reaper's Game but thats because we know so little lol. I'm sure its probably not that.
 

darknessofheart

New member
Joined
Dec 18, 2018
Messages
34
I actually don't want MoM to be the bad guy or even an antagonist. I think that he is trying to find powerful individuals who can protect the worlds from an even larger threat. If he can see the future, then theoretically, anything that he did in the past would've altered that history. Perhaps what he first saw in the future before making any moves was a war that destroyed everything and left no hope at all, so he took precautions to change this to keep the light alive. The war still happened, but he ensured that it, and what occurred afterwards, was under much more controlled circumstances. He used his apprentices to accomplish this, but at the end of the day, it was to sustain the worlds and he knew they would be okay in the end (Ava is up in the air though), hence his carefree nature in doing so.

How much actually went to plan is a matter of debate. Luxu only knew the contents of the lost page that detailed the first keyblade war and the supposed traitor, so that obviously went according to plan, but everything afterwards could've been a disaster as far as the master's plan. Xehanort was aware of the gazing eye in his keyblade and that it could see the future (he flat out says so in the first cutscene) so he may have been strategically using the keyblade to only show the MoM certain things to retroactively change the past and the future.

This would explain why Xemnas never used a keyblade even though he technically should've been able to as he was the nobody of a keyblade bearer. Xehanort also knew Ventus was an ancient keyblade wielder, as he did with the others in Organization XIIII, seemingly approached Braig to recruit him, and told Maleficent how to time-travel and then gave her the means to do so when he possessed Riku. This apparently set in place a chain of events that allowed the Dandelions to travel into the future, where many became pawns of Xehanort, and granted Maleficent knowledge of the book of prophecies.

I don't care if Luxu was Xigbar, Xehanort knew way too much. There's more to his story; he himself is done as a character, but he knew way more than he ever let on. I think he knew Braig's true origins and this is why he enlisted him. Braig saw it as an opportunity and thought he was playing his role perfectly, never suspecting Xehanort knew the whole time. I think Xehanort and Brain ruined the MoM's initial plans, but he still obtained his main objective of breeding new warriors.

That's really what was produced from the events of entire saga; strong heroes born from conflict. The worlds themselves returned to peace and their states before BBS. I also think there is a reason why Nomura left it ambiguous where Sora's chess piece landed in the final epilogue scene. It may have been for a cool closing shot, but what if Sora is siding with the seven and not against them? The old and new lights need to join together to face something far greater than anything before.
 
Last edited:

AdrianXXII

Bronze Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
1,553
Location
Switzerland
I actually don't want MoM to be the bad guy or even an antagonist. I think that he is trying to find powerful individuals who can protect the worlds from an even larger threat. If he can see the future, then theoretically, anything that he did in the past would've altered that history. Perhaps what he first saw in the future before making any moves was a war that destroyed everything and left no hope at all, so he took precautions to change this to keep the light alive. The war still happened, but he ensured that it, and what occurred afterwards, was under much more controlled circumstances. He used his apprentices to accomplish this, but at the end of the day, it was to sustain the worlds and he knew they would be okay in the end (Ava is up in the air though), hence his carefree nature in doing so.

How much actually went to plan is a matter of debate. Luxu only knew the contents of the lost page that detailed the first keyblade war and the supposed traitor, so that obviously went according to plan, but everything afterwards could've been a disaster as far as the master's plan. Xehanort was aware of the gazing eye in his keyblade and that it could see the future (he flat out says so in the first cutscene) so he may have been strategically using the keyblade to only show the MoM certain things to retroactively change the past and the future.

This would explain why Xemnas never used a keyblade even though he technically should've been able to as he was the nobody of a keyblade bearer. Xehanort also knew Ventus was an ancient keyblade wielder, as he did with the others in Organization XIIII, seemingly approached Braig to recruit him, and told Maleficent how to time-travel and then gave her the means to do so when he possessed Riku. This apparently set in place a chain of events that allowed the Dandelions to travel into the future, where many became pawns of Xehanort, and granted Maleficent knowledge of the book of prophecies.

I don't care if Luxu was Xigbar, Xehanort knew way too much. There's more to his story; he himself is done as a character, but he knew way more than he ever let on. I think he knew Braig's true origins and this is why he enlisted him. Braig saw it as an opportunity and thought he was playing his role perfectly, never suspecting Xehanort knew the whole time. I think Xehanort and Brain ruined the MoM's initial plans, but he still obtained his main objective of breeding new warriors.

That's really what was produced from the events of entire saga; strong heroes born from conflict. The worlds themselves returned to peace and their states before BBS. I also think there is a reason why Nomura left it ambiguous where Sora's chess piece landed in the final epilogue scene. It may have been for a cool closing shot, but what if Sora is siding with the seven and not against them? The old and new lights need to join together to face something far greater than anything before.
That's an interesting theory, but the way the ending was framed made it see more likely that Sora and Co. are on a collision course with the fortellers, why else would the fortellers represent darkness on the chest board, where previously the enemies were?
Also the Sora figure he held was still white. Personally I didn't see it as ambiguous as to where the Sora figure landed as much as what'd happen once he lands, seeing earlier in the game Eraqus summoned new figures onto the board.

Still I wouldn't be against expectations here being subverted.

Personally I expect the next game to be a KH3D-2 with how it's framed, though I'm not going to bet on that too much seeing we have yet to see the full secret ending (I assume there's an extended one coming in the FM DLC)

Honestly, I don't know what to expect for the direction this Saga might take. MoM might be interested in making his own Kingdom Hearts, as indicated by his finger shape framing the moon. Though Personally I doubt that seeing Xehanort did that twice now.
We still don't really know much about him and his motives, he seemed to want to know what happens after two Keyblade Wars and set his apprentices on a collision course. If that was to make a controlled safer future as darknessofheart said is unknown. All we know is that he wanted two Keyblade Wars to happen, hence why Luxu waited for someone like Xehanort to appear, as we learned in the secret reports.

What I do hope we learn is what happened to all the Dandelions? How did we go from having this large group of wielders keeping the light save in the new realm of light post war, to only a handful of them. I think that will be explored in the upcoming saga.
 

CaptainMarvelQ8

Bronze Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
1,332
  • News Hound
M.O.M mentioned once to Aced that you cant change destiny, and when Aced insisted that he has to atleast try to prevent the keyblade war from happening, M.O.M was like "meh, you can try if you want". If thats what he believes, then maybe he already tried changing fate once but learned that it was futile, and now he is just playing his own role in the story. Its interesting that lately the story in KH turned more towards a grey area instead of plain good vs evil, and i feel like the next installments in the series will tackle that presepective.
 

darknessofheart

New member
Joined
Dec 18, 2018
Messages
34
That's an interesting theory, but the way the ending was framed made it see more likely that Sora and Co. are on a collision course with the fortellers, why else would the fortellers represent darkness on the chest board, where previously the enemies were?
Also the Sora figure he held was still white. Personally I didn't see it as ambiguous as to where the Sora figure landed as much as what'd happen once he lands, seeing earlier in the game Eraqus summoned new figures onto the board.

Still I wouldn't be against expectations here being subverted.

Personally I expect the next game to be a KH3D-2 with how it's framed, though I'm not going to bet on that too much seeing we have yet to see the full secret ending (I assume there's an extended one coming in the FM DLC)

Honestly, I don't know what to expect for the direction this Saga might take. MoM might be interested in making his own Kingdom Hearts, as indicated by his finger shape framing the moon. Though Personally I doubt that seeing Xehanort did that twice now.
We still don't really know much about him and his motives, he seemed to want to know what happens after two Keyblade Wars and set his apprentices on a collision course. If that was to make a controlled safer future as darknessofheart said is unknown. All we know is that he wanted two Keyblade Wars to happen, hence why Luxu waited for someone like Xehanort to appear, as we learned in the secret reports.

What I do hope we learn is what happened to all the Dandelions? How did we go from having this large group of wielders keeping the light save in the new realm of light post war, to only a handful of them. I think that will be explored in the upcoming saga.
The one thing I would say is that the pieces being darkness doesn't mean Sora has to be against them. In Kingdom Hearts, one of the running themes that I think hasn't been explored enough is the concept that light does not always mean good and darkness does not always mean evil. They both can be used recklessly and for evil purposes, but neither can exist without the other. Sometimes, light and darkness need to go hand in hand if they exist for a similar purpose. Xehanort's philosophy in BBS is actually what made him a grounded character in that he was right. A world or pure light or pure darkness is not sustainable because both beget each other and need to be balanced and that world would then need to be governed to ensure others don't misuse the light or the darkness.

Eraqus thought the light to be absolute and attempted to murder two of his apprentices, his sons, in its name. This was one of the very few instances shown in the series on how even light can be misused and added validity to why Xehanort grew to loathe Eraqus because he felt his philosophy was so broken, it was dangerous. I would love this theme to become the foundation of the next saga. Darkness has been demonized so much in the series, but it's stated it doesn't necessarily mean evil. It's just more closely associated with feelings of anger and hatred, all of which are emotions that are part of life and even necessary and useful in certain circumstances. It's how those emotions are used that determines if it's good or evil. Those who are consumed by those emotions in the series become heartless and nobodies, but single-minded and blind devotion to the light isn't really much better and I would like to see that demonstrated more.

That's why I never enjoyed characters like Kairi; a character with pure light is just boring and un-relatable in so many ways and almost restricts her development as a character because her pure light is her character staple. This is probably why Nomura enjoyed Xehanort so much as a character; his actions were horrible, but his thoughts were pretty human.
 

AdrianXXII

Bronze Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
1,553
Location
Switzerland
The one thing I would say is that the pieces being darkness doesn't mean Sora has to be against them. In Kingdom Hearts, one of the running themes that I think hasn't been explored enough is the concept that light does not always mean good and darkness does not always mean evil. They both can be used recklessly and for evil purposes, but neither can exist without the other. Sometimes, light and darkness need to go hand in hand if they exist for a similar purpose. Xehanort's philosophy in BBS is actually what made him a grounded character in that he was right. A world or pure light or pure darkness is not sustainable because both beget each other and need to be balanced and that world would then need to be governed to ensure others don't misuse the light or the darkness.

Eraqus thought the light to be absolute and attempted to murder two of his apprentices, his sons, in its name. This was one of the very few instances shown in the series on how even light can be misused and added validity to why Xehanort grew to loathe Eraqus because he felt his philosophy was so broken, it was dangerous. I would love this theme to become the foundation of the next saga. Darkness has been demonized so much in the series, but it's stated it doesn't necessarily mean evil. It's just more closely associated with feelings of anger and hatred, all of which are emotions that are part of life and even necessary and useful in certain circumstances. It's how those emotions are used that determines if it's good or evil. Those who are consumed by those emotions in the series become heartless and nobodies, but single-minded and blind devotion to the light isn't really much better and I would like to see that demonstrated more.

That's why I never enjoyed characters like Kairi; a character with pure light is just boring and un-relatable in so many ways and almost restricts her development as a character because her pure light is her character staple. This is probably why Nomura enjoyed Xehanort so much as a character; his actions were horrible, but his thoughts were pretty human.
That's a good point while the series has stated repeatedly in dialog that Darkness isn't necessarily evil, besides Riku we haven't really had too many examples of a hero of darkness. A new Saga would prove itself to be a perfect to explore the notion of Darkness not necessarily being evil.

Having the threat be light this time around could be a nice way to contrast the new Saga form the old, only issue being we have yet to see any indications in KHuX that we'd be exploring that road. Like in all KH games before light is treated as something good and darkness something bad.

I honestly don't think that being pure light or pure darkness actually means a character can't be interesting or multifaceted. If I think of Jasmin and Belle, there's quite a few layers to them. At least in their movies, their KH counterparts don't get all that much screen time to show that off. As of yet we have yet to really learn what having a pure heart actually means despite having had multiple characters that fit that bill.
 

Gigi

New member
Joined
Sep 28, 2006
Messages
51
Age
37
What if MoM abused the power of waking like Sora did, and that is what caused him to disappear? In Back Cover he keeps saying that he's probably going to disappear, but he's not 100% sure about it, so I guess he didn't willingly go away.
 

Oracle Spockanort

the only villain on staff
Staff member
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
31,942
Age
27
Location
California
Website
twitter.com
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • 15th Anniversary
  • Just Short of the Mark
  • Advanced Chain of Memories
  • Beauty Within
  • No Name
What if MoM abused the power of waking like Sora did, and that is what caused him to disappear? In Back Cover he keeps saying that he's probably going to disappear, but he's not 100% sure about it, so I guess he didn't willingly go away.
No, he was certain he would disappear. He just kept teasing it because he's a tease and a jokester.

I have seen people saying that he used the Power of Waking incorrectly and this is how he disappears, but I 100% believe he chose to disappear and his disappearance was not a consequence of any action he took.
 

AdrianXXII

Bronze Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
1,553
Location
Switzerland
No, he was certain he would disappear. He just kept teasing it because he's a tease and a jokester.

I have seen people saying that he used the Power of Waking incorrectly and this is how he disappears, but I 100% believe he chose to disappear and his disappearance was not a consequence of any action he took.
What makes you think it's not the Power of Waking?

After reading some translations of the Ultima, regarding Sora and the Power of Waking, it seemed to be like it was really likely that something similar happened with the Master, just he was aware of it and fully willing to let it happen.

The fact that he and Sora seem to have ended up in the same place kind of make me think it's not too unlikely.
 

Oracle Spockanort

the only villain on staff
Staff member
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
31,942
Age
27
Location
California
Website
twitter.com
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • 15th Anniversary
  • Just Short of the Mark
  • Advanced Chain of Memories
  • Beauty Within
  • No Name
What makes you think it's not the Power of Waking?

After reading some translations of the Ultima, regarding Sora and the Power of Waking, it seemed to be like it was really likely that something similar happened with the Master, just he was aware of it and fully willing to let it happen.

The fact that he and Sora seem to have ended up in the same place kind of make me think it's not too unlikely.
What happens to Sora is what happens when somebody misuses the Power of Waking and overexerts their heart, and I don't think the Master of Masters is the type of person who would something like that. He is also too nonchalant about his future disappearance and takes his time setting up all of his plans.

It is possible he could have time traveled, overexerted himself using the Power of Waking, and his actions are those of somebody who is working on a limited timetable, but nothing about his actions come off as somebody trying to accomplish something because he was running out of time. He doesn't seem genuine in his effort to inform his apprentices that he is going to disappear, instead he does it as another form of manipulation like how he uses the knowledge of a traitor to manipulate them. Everything he does is carefully coordinated with an end goal in mind and also for the sake of observation.

I hesitate to elaborate more on it because I have a pretty in-depth theory about what the Master of Masters is and what his goals are...

I will say I do think Nomura intentionally juxtaposed Sora disappearing to the MoM disappearing as a red herring to distract us from what the MoM is really doing.
 

Gigi

New member
Joined
Sep 28, 2006
Messages
51
Age
37
No, he was certain he would disappear. He just kept teasing it because he's a tease and a jokester.

I have seen people saying that he used the Power of Waking incorrectly and this is how he disappears, but I 100% believe he chose to disappear and his disappearance was not a consequence of any action he took.

At some point in Back Cover he said something along the lines of "it's anybody's guess right now", concerning the fact he would disappear. He was talking in a serious tone.
 
Top