- Joined
- Feb 23, 2011
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- Sunnydale
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- oveliagirlhaditright.tumblr.com
I'm mostly caught up with the retrospective now (and man, has it been amazing; I've also linked people to it and talk about it all the time, when trying to explain to people the problems in II and why Nomura needs to be aware of them so he hopefully won't make the same mistakes again), and I love everything about it (though you know this, Blackdrazon, as I've fangirled about your posts enough in the past)
Anyway, I just thought I'd talk about the SRK reunion myself here (as that's the part of the retrospective I just read) and vent a bit about it, if that's okay (mainly the Sora/Kairi part), because after eleven years I think I finally know how to put into words all my feelings about it and all the terrible things it actually led to with Kairi's portrayal in the series. (And I look forward to your further review on it, Blackdrazon, because if I read that part of the retrospective right, didn't you say you'll be coming back to talk about one of the problems with it in the future, but can't now because of spoilers?)
Anyway, this post by one of the mods on KH-Info-Block on Tumblr basically summarizes how I feel about the Sora and Kairi reunion these days. *ahem*
"You know, it’s been ten years, and my feelings on this are still kind of split.
With Kairi and Sora, their parting was so…grand. And sentimental. They were literally torn out of each other’s arms by the cold, uncaring forces that govern the universe. We saw them reaching for each other across the void, calling to each other from across the stars… It was epic and huge. And their reunion is very much the opposite. They just kind of…walk up to each other in a hallway somewhere. And awkwardly exchange one very uncomfortable hug.
It’s easy to see that and think, “Well, the writers half-assed it.”
But, then, isn’t that real?
Like, doesn’t that say something?
You spend all this time building something up in your head, and then the moment comes, and it’s not remotely what you expected.
It doesn’t feel like you expected.
You don’t know what to say.
Your hands are cold and clammy.
It’s completely unromantic.
And here’s what drives it home for me: In the scene itself, it’s clear to see that Sora’s kind of disappointed, too. That’s what makes me think this is more than just a lackluster writing fumble.
Kairi’s super into it. She’s happy just to be there. She’s not picky about the moment. She’s happy just so see him again. She’s whispering, “This is real,” like she literally can’t believe it.
But Sora just has this unmistakable look and about him, this awful reluctance. This tangible sense of unease. He was expecting something more. He doesn’t want to be ungrateful, and he especially doesn’t mean to diminish the moment with his own negativity, but…deep down, he can’t deny it: He was expecting something more. He wanted to give her something more.
He didn’t want their big reunion…to be this.
And…I don’t know. That disconnect between his emotions and her emotions, and that quiet conflict, that almost shameful feeling inside him – that kind of speaks to me. I feel like means something. I feel like that’s important.
The only thing that kind of ruins it for me is the fact that it never really goes anywhere. You know, immediately after this scene, Kairi basically stops having lines, and all the rich, emotional stuff that’s happening here gets shoved aside and forgotten. It never gets to build or resolve or do something.
It just…fizzles out.
So, in the end, I’m not sure what to say about it.
It was a bold choice.
It certainly could have had potential.
But, in the end, was it worth it?
I don’t know. I go back and forth a lot.
I don’t know."
The Kingdom Hearts Info Block.
It also really, really bothers me that Kairi was kidnapped by the enemy because of Sora--who had her for who knows how long, and could have been doing God knows what to her--and none of the characters even ask her if she's okay! Or seem to be worried that she could be/could've been hurt, or rightfully upset, at all! And this is just such a slap in the face to me, because you compare it to how Sora reacted to Naminé's imprisonment in CoM (or even how he reacted to Belle's kidnapping in CoM, or the Beast yelling at Belle in II), and Sora doesn't seem to be concerned about Kairi at all!
TV Tropes put it best, I think, when they said that if you came into the series with this game, you would have NO idea that Sora spent an entire game before this looking for Kairi based on his reaction to her here.
Frankly, it's abysmal and it's insulting and I HATE it. And it's just another example of how the girls' trauma in this series gets pushed to the side and never examined at all.
This scene is also the start of the stupid "Sora and Riku hate Kairi" arguments that we see in this fandom to this day. And while clearly misguided, I can't blame them for thinking that!
Even casual fans, such as the people at HellfireComms (who do know the series quite well, and aren't diehards or shippers trying to use this scene as evidence to support whatever ship they're longing for), when replaying Re:CoM after this--and seeing Sora forget Kairi--have the reaction that, "To be honest, Kairi isn't that memorable", and essentially people begin thinking she must mean very little to Sora and he must not care about her at all. Surely Riku, Donald, Goofy, Naminé and everyone else means much more to Sora than her.
The series has had problems with "telling and not showing" before, but this is where it just becomes inexcusable for me. Because once again, take the scene I was talking about above as an example. NTom64 of Hellfirecomms has played these games before. He knows the plot and what's coming, and probably does realize that Kairi is supposed to mean a lot to Sora--even if the games do a poor piss job of showing it--and yet in going to CoM again after KHII, he thinks Kairi isn't important to Sora at all! Even when the game he's playing will soon pull a "Kairi is the most special person to Sora ever, so to get him under their thumb, the Organization's going to have Naminé erase his memories of her--and then pretend to be her--so that he'll do whatever their prisoner tells him to! But then Sora's going to choose to go to sleep to get his memories back--because he just can't live without his memories of Kairi, don't you know?!--and literally his memories of her are going to be the key to wake him up!", and NTom knows this, but the games have done so poorly in orchestrating Sora and Kairi's connection now that most people don't even believe it!
Or just don't get what the game's saying. And once again, I don't blame them, because for all the world we hear just how gosh dang important Kairi is to Sora, but we never actually see it or understand why. Even in the moments they're together!
This scene really was the turning point for this fandom when it comes to Kairi, and not in a good way. In everything until this scene, I completely believed a hundred percent (even if we didn't see them together much) in Sora and Kairi's strong friendship with each other. No longer do I do after it.
And it's even the same for Riku and Kairi's relationship! Though not developed as much as Sora and Kairi's one is, until this point we saw A) Riku trying to save Kairi the entire first game and telling Sora to take care of her at the end of it. B) Riku being so sad that the Kairi of his memories disappeared in CoM, and then getting the confidence to use the darkness because of what he thought Kairi was telling him at the time. C) Riku protecting Kairi a few times in KHII, and having this really gut-wrenching and emotionally beautiful reunion with her. But after this moment, Riku pretty much ignores Kairi for the rest of this entire franchise and it makes absolutely no sense at all.
I also hate this instance because it throws all of the good development that Kairi got in this game into the trash can. She stops having lines after this--even when Mickey is saying that "you can't have one without the other, because darkness is half of everything" with a literal Princess of Heart standing right behind him, proving that isn't true!--and she stops fighting and her Keyblade disappears with no explanation at all.
And despite the fact that she says she's tired of waiting many a time (she's been feeling this way from the get-go), the game sidelines her every chance it can get. So much so, that she gets sent back to the Island while Sora and Riku are fighting the remnants of Xemnas and when Sora returns to her then, he's happy to see her and reacting to her the way you'd thought he would've to begin with! This is literally the game saying, "What? How dare you be off the Islands, Kairi! Shoo! Shoo! You go back to them right now, and wait for these boys to come home to you like a good girl--because don't you know you made Sora feel so bad for breaking his promise to return there to you with Riku?!--and THEN and only then will you get any attention again and the reunion that you deserve."
All of this is so hair pulling out frustrating, and I hate it I hate it I hate it!
Edit: Okay, finally caught up with the retrospective and I must commend you on all your hard work, Blackdrazon. It could not have been easy for you, especially since KHII was slowly starting to drive you mad (and for good reason), but I thank you so very much for writing this wonderful thing and I can't wait to see the rest of it. -bows-
But just a few things I was thinking while reading it... I somehow never realized that Roxas says, "Get real! Look which one of us is winning!" in Sora's voice, and now I feel pretty dumb because it was oh so obvious and makes so much more sense!
And I forgot about Riku asking what some of the devices in the castle are for in one of his text bubble scenes! Good on you for wondering, Riku, but unfortunately we'll probably never know
Also, am I the only one bothered by the fact that Ansem the Wise apologizes to Roxas before his intended suicide, but not also Naminé? You know? The girl who was kind and worked around him for a year--doing what he wanted her to--that he then wanted Riku to take out back and shoot like a dog, without even give Kairi and Naminé the respect of at least giving Naminé the option of returning to Kairi if he wanted her gone? This series is so awful with how it hates on/disregards its own girl characters' suffering, that it would almost be funny if it wasn't so effing sad.
I also agree that Kairi was probably supposed to be playable at one point--and as was probably a lot of other people in the Disney worlds--and the more you point it out, the clearer it becomes. But the scene where everyone is standing around in different directions, and Donald compliments Kairi's fighting, really makes it the most obvious. I wish that was the KHII we would've gotten:/
Anyway, these last pages in particular have been so good. That one section in particular where you said something like, "Sora is ANGRY, even though the game gave no hint until this that he was. Sora MISSES his friends, while he cries at the feet of one of them and completely ignores another one..." is something I want to send to Nomura and nail to his door, tbh.
And I had no idea that party members' AI in KHII was so abysmal. Wow. KHII just keeps finding ways to be a let down from the first game more and more these days. >_>
Anyway, I just thought I'd talk about the SRK reunion myself here (as that's the part of the retrospective I just read) and vent a bit about it, if that's okay (mainly the Sora/Kairi part), because after eleven years I think I finally know how to put into words all my feelings about it and all the terrible things it actually led to with Kairi's portrayal in the series. (And I look forward to your further review on it, Blackdrazon, because if I read that part of the retrospective right, didn't you say you'll be coming back to talk about one of the problems with it in the future, but can't now because of spoilers?)
Anyway, this post by one of the mods on KH-Info-Block on Tumblr basically summarizes how I feel about the Sora and Kairi reunion these days. *ahem*
"You know, it’s been ten years, and my feelings on this are still kind of split.
With Kairi and Sora, their parting was so…grand. And sentimental. They were literally torn out of each other’s arms by the cold, uncaring forces that govern the universe. We saw them reaching for each other across the void, calling to each other from across the stars… It was epic and huge. And their reunion is very much the opposite. They just kind of…walk up to each other in a hallway somewhere. And awkwardly exchange one very uncomfortable hug.
It’s easy to see that and think, “Well, the writers half-assed it.”
But, then, isn’t that real?
Like, doesn’t that say something?
You spend all this time building something up in your head, and then the moment comes, and it’s not remotely what you expected.
It doesn’t feel like you expected.
You don’t know what to say.
Your hands are cold and clammy.
It’s completely unromantic.
And here’s what drives it home for me: In the scene itself, it’s clear to see that Sora’s kind of disappointed, too. That’s what makes me think this is more than just a lackluster writing fumble.
Kairi’s super into it. She’s happy just to be there. She’s not picky about the moment. She’s happy just so see him again. She’s whispering, “This is real,” like she literally can’t believe it.
But Sora just has this unmistakable look and about him, this awful reluctance. This tangible sense of unease. He was expecting something more. He doesn’t want to be ungrateful, and he especially doesn’t mean to diminish the moment with his own negativity, but…deep down, he can’t deny it: He was expecting something more. He wanted to give her something more.
He didn’t want their big reunion…to be this.
And…I don’t know. That disconnect between his emotions and her emotions, and that quiet conflict, that almost shameful feeling inside him – that kind of speaks to me. I feel like means something. I feel like that’s important.
The only thing that kind of ruins it for me is the fact that it never really goes anywhere. You know, immediately after this scene, Kairi basically stops having lines, and all the rich, emotional stuff that’s happening here gets shoved aside and forgotten. It never gets to build or resolve or do something.
It just…fizzles out.
So, in the end, I’m not sure what to say about it.
It was a bold choice.
It certainly could have had potential.
But, in the end, was it worth it?
I don’t know. I go back and forth a lot.
I don’t know."
The Kingdom Hearts Info Block.
It also really, really bothers me that Kairi was kidnapped by the enemy because of Sora--who had her for who knows how long, and could have been doing God knows what to her--and none of the characters even ask her if she's okay! Or seem to be worried that she could be/could've been hurt, or rightfully upset, at all! And this is just such a slap in the face to me, because you compare it to how Sora reacted to Naminé's imprisonment in CoM (or even how he reacted to Belle's kidnapping in CoM, or the Beast yelling at Belle in II), and Sora doesn't seem to be concerned about Kairi at all!
TV Tropes put it best, I think, when they said that if you came into the series with this game, you would have NO idea that Sora spent an entire game before this looking for Kairi based on his reaction to her here.
Frankly, it's abysmal and it's insulting and I HATE it. And it's just another example of how the girls' trauma in this series gets pushed to the side and never examined at all.
This scene is also the start of the stupid "Sora and Riku hate Kairi" arguments that we see in this fandom to this day. And while clearly misguided, I can't blame them for thinking that!
Even casual fans, such as the people at HellfireComms (who do know the series quite well, and aren't diehards or shippers trying to use this scene as evidence to support whatever ship they're longing for), when replaying Re:CoM after this--and seeing Sora forget Kairi--have the reaction that, "To be honest, Kairi isn't that memorable", and essentially people begin thinking she must mean very little to Sora and he must not care about her at all. Surely Riku, Donald, Goofy, Naminé and everyone else means much more to Sora than her.
The series has had problems with "telling and not showing" before, but this is where it just becomes inexcusable for me. Because once again, take the scene I was talking about above as an example. NTom64 of Hellfirecomms has played these games before. He knows the plot and what's coming, and probably does realize that Kairi is supposed to mean a lot to Sora--even if the games do a poor piss job of showing it--and yet in going to CoM again after KHII, he thinks Kairi isn't important to Sora at all! Even when the game he's playing will soon pull a "Kairi is the most special person to Sora ever, so to get him under their thumb, the Organization's going to have Naminé erase his memories of her--and then pretend to be her--so that he'll do whatever their prisoner tells him to! But then Sora's going to choose to go to sleep to get his memories back--because he just can't live without his memories of Kairi, don't you know?!--and literally his memories of her are going to be the key to wake him up!", and NTom knows this, but the games have done so poorly in orchestrating Sora and Kairi's connection now that most people don't even believe it!
Or just don't get what the game's saying. And once again, I don't blame them, because for all the world we hear just how gosh dang important Kairi is to Sora, but we never actually see it or understand why. Even in the moments they're together!
This scene really was the turning point for this fandom when it comes to Kairi, and not in a good way. In everything until this scene, I completely believed a hundred percent (even if we didn't see them together much) in Sora and Kairi's strong friendship with each other. No longer do I do after it.
And it's even the same for Riku and Kairi's relationship! Though not developed as much as Sora and Kairi's one is, until this point we saw A) Riku trying to save Kairi the entire first game and telling Sora to take care of her at the end of it. B) Riku being so sad that the Kairi of his memories disappeared in CoM, and then getting the confidence to use the darkness because of what he thought Kairi was telling him at the time. C) Riku protecting Kairi a few times in KHII, and having this really gut-wrenching and emotionally beautiful reunion with her. But after this moment, Riku pretty much ignores Kairi for the rest of this entire franchise and it makes absolutely no sense at all.
I also hate this instance because it throws all of the good development that Kairi got in this game into the trash can. She stops having lines after this--even when Mickey is saying that "you can't have one without the other, because darkness is half of everything" with a literal Princess of Heart standing right behind him, proving that isn't true!--and she stops fighting and her Keyblade disappears with no explanation at all.
And despite the fact that she says she's tired of waiting many a time (she's been feeling this way from the get-go), the game sidelines her every chance it can get. So much so, that she gets sent back to the Island while Sora and Riku are fighting the remnants of Xemnas and when Sora returns to her then, he's happy to see her and reacting to her the way you'd thought he would've to begin with! This is literally the game saying, "What? How dare you be off the Islands, Kairi! Shoo! Shoo! You go back to them right now, and wait for these boys to come home to you like a good girl--because don't you know you made Sora feel so bad for breaking his promise to return there to you with Riku?!--and THEN and only then will you get any attention again and the reunion that you deserve."
All of this is so hair pulling out frustrating, and I hate it I hate it I hate it!
Edit: Okay, finally caught up with the retrospective and I must commend you on all your hard work, Blackdrazon. It could not have been easy for you, especially since KHII was slowly starting to drive you mad (and for good reason), but I thank you so very much for writing this wonderful thing and I can't wait to see the rest of it. -bows-
But just a few things I was thinking while reading it... I somehow never realized that Roxas says, "Get real! Look which one of us is winning!" in Sora's voice, and now I feel pretty dumb because it was oh so obvious and makes so much more sense!
And I forgot about Riku asking what some of the devices in the castle are for in one of his text bubble scenes! Good on you for wondering, Riku, but unfortunately we'll probably never know
Also, am I the only one bothered by the fact that Ansem the Wise apologizes to Roxas before his intended suicide, but not also Naminé? You know? The girl who was kind and worked around him for a year--doing what he wanted her to--that he then wanted Riku to take out back and shoot like a dog, without even give Kairi and Naminé the respect of at least giving Naminé the option of returning to Kairi if he wanted her gone? This series is so awful with how it hates on/disregards its own girl characters' suffering, that it would almost be funny if it wasn't so effing sad.
I also agree that Kairi was probably supposed to be playable at one point--and as was probably a lot of other people in the Disney worlds--and the more you point it out, the clearer it becomes. But the scene where everyone is standing around in different directions, and Donald compliments Kairi's fighting, really makes it the most obvious. I wish that was the KHII we would've gotten:/
Anyway, these last pages in particular have been so good. That one section in particular where you said something like, "Sora is ANGRY, even though the game gave no hint until this that he was. Sora MISSES his friends, while he cries at the feet of one of them and completely ignores another one..." is something I want to send to Nomura and nail to his door, tbh.
And I had no idea that party members' AI in KHII was so abysmal. Wow. KHII just keeps finding ways to be a let down from the first game more and more these days. >_>
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