Kingdom Hearts 2 Retrospective

[KHHacker6595]

I can, actually. During the past few months, I've seen a lot men walking around downtown in nothing but shorts and sandals, completely bare-chested, due to the sweltering heat. The women, by contrast, usually are wearing tank tops at a minimum. I should add that we're at least 5 hours away from any nearby coastline or major body of water, so no excuse there.

Maybe women dress more... loosely... in media, but I see far more scantily clad men in real life than I do women.

Ha, looks like I got ninja'd by Tinny. Point still stands though.

I agree but that really wasn't my argument. The only reason I brought that up is because of the standards of what we consider objectification of the male body in comparison to women. Like what would the male counterpart of Cindy have to look like to be just as problematic in your eyes. What design choice would a male character have to have for you to say that's sexualized and objectifying.

My overall point is that its a double standard and it shouldn't matter either way as long as the character is well written and executed. Its a fantasy game for god sakes, sex appeal is to be expected.

 

[Dandelion]

I was arguing the point that a male version of Cindy would be just as sexist under that mind set. His response was that it wasn't, because he wasn't revealing enough, I argued that most men don't dress as revealing as some women, so the criteria for what constitutes as objectifying for each gender must be different according to that logic.

The criteria for objectification and sexism IS different based on what I said to begin with, women's bodies are inherently seen as more sexual, hence the censorship. It's not a vacuum of one size-fits all, it is cultural and it is different.

Based on your aggressive response, may I ask, are you an active tumblr user?

No, but I see what you're getting at. My ideals and stances aren't based on anything other than life experiences, academia, and actually listening to women instead of talking over them about issues that are vastly different and deter and distract from the original concerns. I was aggressive because I sensed an attempt at baiting the others into an argument based on... well, I'll keep reading.

The other side to your argument is that women deal with more over-sexualization, which I agree with, but however in Japan its a culturally different situation and can't be judged on the same moral standards as in the West.

Well why the hell not, Square complies to our moral standards when they're pressured to censor violence. They alter dialogue and translations when they don't fit. They've markedly made this game far more western than others, and they're very much aware of how some of their fans feel. Instead they turned the concern into a literal decal for a car instead of at least giving that girl some coveralls while she's in the garage. Noctis's tiger woods outfit looks great though.

If Cindy is a great character in the final game, I see no problem with her design no matter the context. Its the same argument I hear against Quiet from Metal Gear Solid V. She was a fantastic character and her design embraced her sexuality.

I don't play that series, but someone's body isn't the same as their sexuality. To me, a body is a body is a body and isn't inherently sexual, but there's a difference between a human being naked or wearing no clothes or wearing something that shows of their bodies and a character being designed without clothes in order to appeal to the sexual desire of a consumer.

Like I said before, there's a difference between sexy and sexist. Its like saying Thor is problematic in the Marvel Cinematic Universe since he has scenes of him getting shirtless inserted in the trailers to show off his body, which is technically objectification based on that same line of thinking.

Not to everyone, because as I've said before - in today's society a man's body is not by default considered sexual. The problematic thing there is that if a woman's body was shown in that same scene in that same way, the rating would change. Though, I'm sure no one minds looking at Mr. Hemsworth.

My point being, sex sells and its never going to stop selling, as long as the characters are well written and effective, I don't mind.

Okay, but plenty of women who are affected by portrayals of women as objects do mind. They're the ones I care about.

 

[Wire]

I'd support her design if I felt it was a facet of her character. Bayonetta's design, for example, makes sense given her personality and background. I don't know enough about Cindy's character to tell if this design is warranted. Either way, it doesn't really bother me. She's just a character in a video game.

 

[KHHacker6595]

The criteria for objectification and sexism IS different based on what I said to begin with, women's bodies are inherently seen as more sexual, hence the censorship. It's not a vacuum of one size-fits all, it is cultural and it is different.


No, but I see what you're getting at. My ideals and stances aren't based on anything other than life experiences, academia, and actually listening to women instead of talking over them about issues that are vastly different and deter and distract from the original concerns. I was aggressive because I sensed an attempt at baiting the others into an argument based on... well, I'll keep reading.


Well why the hell not, Square complies to our moral standards when they're pressured to censor violence. They alter dialogue and translations when they don't fit. They've markedly made this game far more western than others, and they're very much aware of how some of their fans feel. Instead they turned the concern into a literal decal for a car instead of at least giving that girl some coveralls while she's in the garage. Noctis's tiger woods outfit looks great though.


I don't play that series, but someone's body isn't the same as their sexuality. To me, a body is a body is a body and isn't inherently sexual, but there's a difference between a human being naked or wearing no clothes or wearing something that shows of their bodies and a character being designed without clothes in order to appeal to the sexual desire of a consumer.


Not to everyone, because as I've said before - in today's society a man's body is not by default considered sexual. The problematic thing there is that if a woman's body was shown in that same scene in that same way, the rating would change. Though, I'm sure no one minds looking at Mr. Hemsworth.



Okay, but plenty of women who are affected by portrayals of women as objects do mind. They're the ones I care about.

okay well I agree with most of your points. I genuinely respect your well written response. I just don't think this topic is black or white. There's a huge grey area with a lot of these social issues and far too many people are on radically different sides rather than trying to discuss things civilly.

 

[FudgemintGuardian]

So if she happened to be a male character that looked like this, would you say the same thing.

Does he wear booty shorts?
Going by that the genderbend is wearing a normal jacket and not Cindy's "look at my cute waist" one, I assume not.
It also looks like he just has it unzipped when not working. Which is what I wish Cindy did, have her in pants and a normal-sized jacket that's zipped when she's working and unzipped when not. That way you still get the sexy and she's protected from ouchies. Everybody wins.

I for one think designing Cindy as a male pretty boy showing his abs would be just as problematic from that sort of moral standard, but I don't feel its an issue either way. The same people complaining about this are the ones petitioning to have Tifa's breasts reduced in size in the remake because somehow large breasts is inherently more sexist of a design choice, which ironically is just as much body shaming as they like to label it.

No, we are not.

 

[Veritas7340]

@Blackdrazon: Just read the latest post in the KHII retrospective. Excellent per usual. Regarding the unexplained power increase, I think I have an answer. I had always assumed both Xemnas and Sora's group became stronger because of their close proximity to the artificial Kingdom Hearts.

In KHI, Ansem SoD had become powerful enough to create a giant Heartless ship, and Sora's group had become strong enough to destroy that ship. Considering the group became more powerful in KHII, it could make sense. It wouldn't justify the huge leap to destroying buildings and jumping like Superman, but this explanation helps a little lol.

 

[Blackdrazon]

That's a fair possibility!

 

[ornamentelle]

I've been headcanoning it that the physics is getting really wonky in the final battles (well, particularly in the next segments of it) to explain all the flying and jumping around. Doesn't quite explain the slicing through BUILDINGS, but it makes the huge leap from the buildings to the World of Nothingness a little more palatable.

You know, the more hyper-shonen action sequences never really bothered me much when playing the game... But ever since I started writing a sort of KH retelling fic, it's really jarring how these sudden impossible moves come up for the sake of flashiness, if only because the game doesn't consistency in that flashiness and ability. The main culprit that springs to mind is the RC set in the Beast's Castle First Visit boss fight. Sora being able to slam down a massive chandelier and spin it around, or slinging himself around a pillar after the Dark Thorn flings him across the room... Really highlights the difference the tone between KH1/CoM and KH2.

The retrospective is really interesting and enjoyable to read. Can't wait to hear your thoughts about the next part.

 

[FudgemintGuardian]

I didn't realize that armor dude was Xemnas at first either, so you're not alone Blackdrazon.
And wow, I had no idea that the dragon mech would actually attack us with its fingers!

 

[Elysium]

^ Same.

I had no idea until I read your last post for the Retrospective that those were fingers that were attacking you. I assumed the roof was caving in or Xemnas had a defense system that would put Scrooge McDuck's to shame.

 

[LightUpTheSky452]

Edit: Ninja'd by Veritas7340 as to why I (and we apparently both) think Sora's suddenly Superman here

I have to say that I really enjoyed this update. Great job, Blackdrazon!

Just a few things I thought about while reading:

For one thing, I've been pondering over this for years and I think I finally know why the game is expecting you to think that Sora is allowed to have all these insane new abilities suddenly.

At first I thought the flying thing was maybe supposed to be attributed to glide from Final Form, or maybe even the Peter Pan summon (if it had reminded Sora how to fly, maybe, as we do see him flying outside of Neverland in KH1's final battles), or maybe even Roxas finally joining Sora more willingly and making them both stronger that way, BUT the real reason for it? This line right here from Mickey, I believe:

"Kingdom Hearts. The worlds gave us this door way. They want us to be the guardians of their destiny." I think you're supposed to believe that Kingdom Hearts suddenly gave Sora super powers (as it also apparently did with Xemnas, hence is spanky new robe in the last fight with him) so he and Xemnas would be evenly matched and whoever one could do what they wanted with KH?

IDK. It's a stretch. And even a really bad reason if it is true, because no one would make that connection and Mickey's line seemed like a rush add-in to explain why you shouldn't be afraid to go through the door that Xemnas seemingly made, but it's the best thing I can come up with.

Oh, and speaking of Xemnas' wardrobe change, I think that's the reason for the zebra print that we see all over the final battle. Kingdom Hearts gave him a Final Form, so to speak, that's between light and darkness like he is. Or so I've heard people deduce.

And I don't know if you know this, but it is possible to miss some of the reaction commands with the buildings in the first section (I'm counting everything as the first section until you get to that scaffolding section), and then to get badly hurt because of it--maybe you could even die if you didn't have certain abilities and were low leveled--and then you have to wait forever to try and find the reaction command again (specifically the one that takes you to the second stage). I accidentally did this one time when I just wanted to explore the area some before moving forward, but the game punishes you for it.

I really did enjoy reading all that you brought to the table about the final battle here The KH1 is hardly better in some regards, but the KHII one is a mess where you have no idea what's going on, or why you're even doing what you are (and the main characters even seem to feel that same way at times).

I do now think that a lot of it would have made more sense with the King boss battle, and whatnot, to give it all some sort of explanation, but alas.

I really don't know what could have happened. Could Square Enix have run out of time or budget? Or were they having technical or hardware limitations?

Because I'd like to believe that if Square could have, they would have kept the two King boss fights to add some cohesiveness here--or at least would have changed things to make it more clear what was going on, when they realized that those fights would be a no-go, but maybe not?

Oh... I truly hate to be that person, but I think you were looking for the word "throw" in a few places in one of your paragraphs in the retrospective, Blackdrazon. It's a bit incoherent if I try to read it the way it is, without replacing a few of the words with that one.

For reference, the paragraph I'm talking about is this one: "This whole sequence is so inchoate. Sora comes to attack a thing, so things show up so he can conveniently thing the things into the thing before it does a thing that doesn’t affect him but he things the things into the thing so that it will stop doing the thing. We’re just flying around with no rhyme or reason to where we actually are, what we’re doing or why we’re doing it."

Gah! I'm so sorry, Blackdrazon! I hate giving constructive criticism (even though it does help people, I know), because you're amazing--and this whole thing is amazing--and I thank you so much for writing it, and I don't want you to think that I don't admire it, but...

Y'know, there's very much a reason I've decided to never really give anyone critique. I should probably stop now and never attempt it again. Sorry. And if I hurt your feelings, just ignore me. I'm a stupid person who should be shutting up, and not sticking her nose where it doesn't belong.

ANYWAY, I think the thing that bothers me the most about this whole ordeal is how Sora's on the other side of the buildings in the first section before they even start to pull away from each other.

Oh, and that he's pretty much stabbing Xemnas in a certain area there:/

And does it bother anyone else how easily Sora dismisses Kairi and Mickey being left behind on the other side of the door? Riku seems upset about it, and yells out, "No!", as he stays facing his companions with his hand outstretched that way, but Sora doesn't seem to remotely care and just exclaims while summoning his Keyblade, "We can take him on our own!"

Like, I'm sorry, Sora. Do you maybe want to be worried about your friends some? Especially for all you know, Xemnas could have a worse trap waiting for them on the other side, in which case they'd need your help.

I mean, Sora was told to take care of Kairi at the end of KH1, for goodness sake (and she's also an important Princess of Heart, who very much needs to be protected for the worlds' sake as well as her own!), and yet... Sora never does that at all, and Riku eventually seems to stop even considering the idea, too. (But at least Riku's still caring of Kairi here, that's more than we can say about Sora.)

It's also really insulting that Kairi somehow got knocked out running through a door, writers.

Tbh, I don't even know why I should care/be surprised anymore. Clearly I should just shut my brain off with KHII. But as a video editor-- and a SoKai shipper, who has made her fair sure of SoKai videos--when I can start thinking of ways to make Sora look like a jerk towards Kairi in amvs (like say with the song "Jar of Hearts"), with actual scenes like this from the game and changing nothing in them... Then there's a huge problem there! Good gosh.

Oh, and about knowing that those fingers were from the dragon... I think I did notice that on my third playthrough of the final battle and ever since then, but not at all before that, I don't think. They really don't hint at that idea at all.

I did, however, realize that that guy in the armor was Xemnas. That's something, at least.

 

[Squood!]

And does it bother anyone else how easily Sora dismisses Kairi and Mickey being left behind on the other side of the door? Riku seems upset about it, and yells out, "No!", as he stays facing his companions with his hand outstretched that way, but Sora doesn't seem to remotely care and just exclaims while summoning his Keyblade, "We can take him on our own!"

I treat that scene as Roxas influencing Sora's behavior. I know, it sounds crazy but it was all I could come up with.

 

[LightUpTheSky452]

You very well could be right I have been of the theory that Roxas effected Sora most of KHII, because he didn't return to him willingly and that led to them not meshing back together the way that they were supposed to.

DiZ tell Roxas to "share some of his hatred with Sora", and I think that's exactly what happened (though I think it was unintentional, as Roxas would never aim to help DiZ get what he wanted like that).

When Roxas begins to seem a bit less begrudging about Sora, however (whether it's after you fight him, or when he reunites with Naminé before he returns to you the last time), Sora seems more like his old self again and much more sympathetic towards the villains (which is typical Sora).

So that could be what's happening here. But Sora had already started to act more Sora-like since fighting Roxas, so what's up with this one moment where he chooses to ignore his friends' situation if he is more himself in this moment?

IDK. Maybe it is that Sora and Roxas don't completely jive the way they were meant to until after the scene where the four of them (with Kairi and Naminé in the equation) are all together, and Roxas finally returns to him willingly. That would probably explain a lot, actually.

 

[FudgemintGuardian]

Oh... I truly hate to be that person, but I think you were looking for the word "throw" in a few places in one of your paragraphs in the retrospective, Blackdrazon. It's a bit incoherent if I try to read it the way it is, without replacing a few of the words with that one.

For reference, the paragraph I'm talking about is this one: "This whole sequence is so inchoate. Sora comes to attack a thing, so things show up so he can conveniently thing the things into the thing before it does a thing that doesn’t affect him but he things the things into the thing so that it will stop doing the thing. We’re just flying around with no rhyme or reason to where we actually are, what we’re doing or why we’re doing it."

Given how ridiculous the entire sequence is, "thing the things into the thing" is pretty accurate

 

[LightUpTheSky452]

Hahaha. True. I was even kind of thinking that myself while reading that. And if Blackdrazon intentionally wrote it like that to better note how ridiculous that entire segment is, then I am completely all for it.

Carry on--Blackdrazon, my friend--and just ignore my critique from above^_^

 

[Elysium]

Yeah, I thought the thing thing thing sentence was mocking how ridiculous and contrived everything was. He things the thing that things things at him. It made me laugh.

 

[LightUpTheSky452]

...I feel like I'm going to regret talking about this. Especially since I promised myself I never would, and this part I'm about to mention was a few pages back in the retrospective, anyway, BUT... In seeing someone on deviantArt think this same thing recently (thus proving I wasn't the only one to get this idea from the words, like I thought I had been for years), I feel like I have to bring this up now.

Okay, Axel's line to Sora, "Go, find Kairi. Oh, almost forgot: sorry for what I did to her." Did anyone ever read that line as Axel raping Kairi when you first played the game?

Before any of you comes at me with torches and pitch forks, I know, okay? I KNOW that he didn't do that. This is a Disney game, after all (and if we were supposed to be pondering that in this moment at all, Sora's response to it wouldn't be a relaxed, "When we find her, you can tell her that yourself."), but when I was first playing this game when I was twelve, I did think that.

I had thought it was maybe something akin to how Jo Rowling didn't write in the Harry Potter books that Dumbledore was gay--because back then it would have been considered a too mature topic for children?--even though she was expecting older readers to pick up on it, but for kids to just think that Dumbledore made a nice friend or something.

Once again, I KNOW this is not the case. Axel really is apologizing for kidnapping Kairi here and nothing else, but I just have to wonder why the heck that wasn't the line then? "Go. Find Kairi. Oh, almost forgot: sorry for kidnapping her," wouldn't that have been a lot better/made more sense, with no way that the line could have been misconstrued at all? (And it doesn't help that he'd already apologized for kidnapping her in Hollow Bastion, making it seem like he maybe is referring to something else here. Nor does it help that I played CoM before KHII, which honestly... going off of his CoM characterization, I believed that this could have been within his character's capabilities back then).

In any case, I think that's what the line SHOULD'VE been, whether it went against what he said in Japanese or not, I don't care: that's how SENA should've translated it. It's too squicky sounding, otherwise.

And looking back on it, even back in the day I wasn't the only one to think this...

Story time. *ahem*

When I first played the original Kingdom Hearts game, I played it alongside my sister and her best friend (who was also like an older sister for me). When KHII finally came around, I very much wanted to experience it all with them again, but I couldn't hold off on starting the game, either. So I had my own save file I was working through (that was a little bit ahead of their save file), and I was also with them while they experienced KHII for the first time. Since I was actually ahead of them, I saw the Axel scene before they did, and did have that fear about Axel's line in my head.

So when Ashton and Juanita (that's their names) finally got to that moment, I couldn't help but asking, "What do you think he meant by that, exactly?" And then my friend Juanita replied (sarcastically, I think--though the point remains that I think even SHE was saying that the line could be misconstrued this way, even though I hadn't hinted at all hinted that I felt the same way), "Oh, he probably raped her."

So, yeah... Now I know of at least three people (myself included) who got that idea from that line. I know that's not what happened, but it's so very squicky sounding and to this day I hate it so much, and I pretty much cringe whenever I hear Axel say that when I go through KHII. Ugh.

...And on a side note, I also started thinking back in the day that maybe the "oh, and sorry what I did to her" line was Axel saying that he somehow gave Kairi her Keyblade? Since it's soon after he says that that she somehow ends up with one, though I could never figure out why he'd think Sora would think that was a bad thing, then--though that's neither here nor there.

We clearly know now that Axel had nothing to do with Kairi getting her Keyblade, and that he's just talking about kidnapping her in that scene...

Still hate the line with a fiery passion, however.

Ugh. It's made me feel so crazy for being creeped out about it--when I sure no one else was at all--for years.

And on another side note, maybe this is why to this day it pisses me off that NOT ONE PERSON in Kingdom Hearts II asks Kairi if she's okay (after we rescue her), when they know that she was the Organization's prisoner for who even knows how long. And we all know how bad the Organization was to Naminé when they held her hostage.

 

[Elysium]

I always thought it was a weird line, too, but KH2 is full of those. I just connected the dots that he was referring to kidnapping her.

The more I think about it, the more I think it's likely Kairi was completely absent from KH2 until somebody thought, "Hey, you know, we're kind of leaving out one of the trio from the first game here..." And then they did a patch job trying to force her into the narrative. If that is what happened, I don't know why they bothered. Kairi was pretty much out for 90% of KH1, too.

 

[Veritas7340]

Glad to know I'm not the only one who thought the mini-game boss before fighting Xemnas again seemed like a pointless transition.

Although it is weird that Namine and Roxas suddenly seem in love with each other, the voice actors did such a good job that the scene felt natural. Perhaps Roxas inherited Sora's latent memory of his promise to Namine, and that's why his feelings for her are augmented.

 

[LightUpTheSky452]

So I have to say that that scene of Sora, Riku, and Kairi interacting with Roxas and Naminé (and even a few things before it, like us seeing some of Terra in Xemnas, that we know now) is probably one of my favorites in the entire game, and I really enjoyed reading what you had to say about it

Sure, it's kind of annoying that Kairi is just ignored and doesn't get to help cheer Riku up alongside Sora, but there have been worse things.

I also have fun zooming in and seeing how all the characters are celebrating, right after they think they've succeeded in defeating Xemnas. Kairi turns to Riku and smacks him in the arm, it looks like (which is something I like a lot, because we don't see much of the two of them interacting and maybe this is what their relationship would be like?), Donald and Goofy hug, Sora's throwing a fist in the air, and Mickey seems a bit lonely that no one's paying attention to him. LOL.

And I adore how kind Kairi is to Naminé. I feel as though Kairi's one of the people who is the best to Naminé in this series. And seeing how they get on so well (despite the fact that Naminé seemed to be a bit jealous of Kairi in CoM) makes me smile. I wish we saw more of them together...

And I totally always thought that it was Sora and Riku's own fault in being left behind, for being too slow, too

And you know, Blackdrazon... you and that other forum user might be onto something, about Kairi maybe originally being on the bike. Sora attacks the Heartless, Riku fires the laser. Perhaps Kairi's the one who was meant to use the shield?

Anyway, I find fighting the dragon is one of the hardest things for me in this game. IDK why! But using mega laser rarely works for me (and trying to use it almost always gets me killed), so just regular lasers it is (even though just relying on those is near impossible in Critical Mode, I somehow manage it).

And it's funny fighting against Xemnas and pretty much having to let him throw you out of the ring! With Berserk, I usually get his HP down so very fast. But since there are limits to how much you can do to him before the game tries to mess you up some, I just stand there in front of him, daring him to strike me, like, "Okay, please hit me and start the next stage of this fight, so I can wail on you some more, my man." LOL.

As for the Roxas and Naminé thing... I feel like we're supposed to think they're in love because Sora and Kairi are (which really, really bothers me these days, because these games tell us time and time again to view the Nobodies as their own people, and yet here they're maybe telling us not to?). But then again, RokuNami is dropped almost entirely after this (they haven't interacted once since KHII), and even SoKai is somewhat. So I have no clue.

It's worth noting that before II, I was also getting Namiku vibes from CoM and now RokuShi vibes from Days (and right now anyway, it does seem like Xion is the most important person to Roxas), so I don't think even Nomura knows what he's doing with hinting at pairings anymore.

I have heard an interesting theory, though--that Xion is supposed to represent Roxas' first love (like Sora is Naminé's), and maybe after all the pain they both felt at the expense of those two people, Roxas and Naminé will maybe be prepared for something more real and healthy with each other?

I could see that, maybe. Roxas' line in Days: "Someone out there knows where I come from. If I can't get answers here, I'll get them there. That'll be the person... I trust," seems to be building up RokuNami in such a way, possibly.

In any case, it'll be interesting to see how KHIII handles the two of them, if at all^^

By the way, I don't know if you're aware of this Blackdrazon, but in the battle coming up... If you die in the segment where you're supposed to play as Riku, Riku's death cry is Kairi's name. Unfortunately, I have no videos to prove it (and because of that I thought it was a myth until, like, a few months ago), but this video with Riku's ripped battle cries proves it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8rHzGYj5ic

It's really interesting, and makes me think that (at least in this game) Riku was really concerned about the need to watch over Kairi, and perhaps in dying (and Sora dying, because if you don't get to Sora in that moment as Riku, he's toast; and Riku probably knows it) he's worried about who will take care of/protect her without him (them)?

Or maybe he still loves her, and is languishing with that quote that he'll never get to tell her how he feels?

It's a nice touch, imo. Especially since some of this game makes it seem like Riku's forgotten Kairi entirely, as he and Sora somewhat ignore her (and people--rightfully-complain all the time that the only words Riku speaks to Kairi this entire game are, "Take this"), so I really do appreciate that they did do this here.

...If only things like this weren't lost completely in the later installments. Hi, Dream Drop Distance.

Oh, and that FM scene where Sora clearly remembers Naminé means a lot to me, and I'm glad they included it... But boy, did we miss out for years--in not having that scene, and having no clue that Sora remembered anything about Castle Oblivion at all!

It's no wonder that casuals have such a hard time keeping up with this franchise. Because most of them had no access to that FM scene (and probably had no clue of its existence at all), and suddenly DDD has Sora remembering Naminé with (seemingly) no explanation. Like, what? They must have been so confused!

I think that scene, alongside the Unknown boss fight in KHIFM, or among some of the most important/game changing ones added to the Final Mix versions of these games.