God's Kingdom

[Forever Atlas]

That's a pretty big assumption there. I could say you look not for truth, but for comfort.



...... Earth to Smooth. If your 5-ear old breaks something in a store, you pay for it.

comfort? lol.... sure it is comforting... but its not what made me stick to what i found. ive seen the proof with my own eyes, i've experienced it, i've been part of it... through years of searching, and constantly proving to myself if what i have is right.... constant study of many diff religions, constant study of my own beliefs, constant testing out of things... otherwise it would be useless my faith.

and as for the punished... so you are saying when they turn 40 too your children, you'll have to still pick up after them....

 

[Phoenix]

comfort? lol.... sure it is comforting... but its not what made me stick to what i found. ive seen the proof with my own eyes, i've experienced it, i've been part of it... through years of searching, and constantly proving to myself if what i have is right.... constant study of many diff religions, constant study of my own beliefs, constant testing out of things... otherwise it would be useless my faith.

Bully for you. Then don't make assumptions of me, neh?

and as for the punished... so you are saying when they turn 40 too your children, you'll have to still pick up after them....

Why no, but by that age, I have no right to tell them anything. However, if they're doing crimes, then obviously I screwed up raising him, unless he's mentally unbalanced.

 

[Forever Atlas]

i think your animosity stems from twisted teachings (correct me if im wrong) that are all around us and i dont blame you, thats why i used to be the way i was. and unfortunately not everyone will find what i found or even want it... but thats their own choice and hey its all good.

and i think thats why u try shoot down everything i say, because as i have seen in a lot of your responses what u think i believe and what some others believe, but its not... and if you knew that, then you might see where we are coming from.

 

[Phoenix]

i think your animosity stems from twisted teachings (correct me if im wrong) that are all around us and i dont blame you, thats why i used to be the way i was. and unfortunately not everyone will find what i found or even want it... but thats their own choice and hey its all good.

and i think thats why u try shoot down everything i say, because as i have seen in a lot of your responses what u think i believe and what some others believe, but its not... and if you knew that, then you might see where we are coming from.

Nice try, but wrong. I like debating, that's why I do it. You're over-analyzing; in my mind, you're wrong because making any objective conclusion based on subjective experience is ignorant.

But that's not what we're debating, is it? The point you had a problem with was over whether a Creator has a responsibility towards his creations or not. If a kid grows up to be a criminal, the parents screwed up. Why you're so hesitant to apply this to god, even though you're willing to compare him to a parent, is beyond me.

Finally, if you don't want people to assume things of you, you might want to try doing the same.

 

[Forever Atlas]

Nice try, but wrong. I like debating, that's why I do it. You're over-analyzing; in my mind, you're wrong because making any objective conclusion based on subjective experience is ignorant.

But that's not what we're debating, is it? The point you had a problem with was over whether a Creator has a responsibility towards his creations or not. If a kid grows up to be a criminal, the parents screwed up. Why you're so hesitant to apply this to god, even though you're willing to compare him to a parent, is beyond me.

Finally, if you don't want people to assume things of you, you might want to try doing the same.

thats strictly because you dont know the reasons why. Because of perfect justice and perfect wisdom beyond human comprehension... humans do what they think fit and see how far we have gotten? you have to realize the whole issue at hand and not just scrutinize one small portion of it.

 

[╬ProperArtist╬]

Bully for you. Then don't make assumptions of me, neh?



Why no, but by that age, I have no right to tell them anything. However, if they're doing crimes, then obviously I screwed up raising him, unless he's mentally unbalanced.

I'm not going against you or anything Phoenix but the way I'd see a situation like that as a parent. It's the parents responsibility to help guide the child through life yes, but with their influence also comes the school, friends, the media, the church (if one goes to church). Unless one is a highly strict parent who watches their child 24/7 and forbids them to do anything (which in most cases leads to much worse acting out when out from under the parent's thumb-college etc.) there's not much one can really do to keep those other influences down. You do what you can to lead that child on the right path, but at the end of the day they've got free will and if they choose to disobey what you've taught tried to teach them over the years it's not the parents fault it's the "kids" fault no matter what their age.

In the sense of God, that would mean that there's guidance along the way for that person "child" to follow, but at the end of the day, the will to use those teachings/guidance is their choice.

Shouldn't be God's fault or a parentals fault, when everything is all said and done it's up to the child to decide for themselves what they want to do.

IF any of that made any sense

 

[KHFanatic4565]

thats strictly because you dont know the reasons why. Because of perfect justice and perfect wisdom beyond human comprehension... humans do what they think fit and see how far we have gotten? you have to realize the whole issue at hand and not just scrutinize one small portion of it.

Why must this be the absolute?

 

[Phoenix]

I'm not going against you or anything Phoenix but the way I'd see a situation like that as a parent. It's the parents responsibility to help guide the child through life yes, but with their influence also comes the school, friends, the media, the church (if one goes to church). Unless one is a highly strict parent who watches their child 24/7 and forbids them to do anything (which in most cases leads to much worse acting out when out from under the parent's thumb-college etc.) there's not much one can really do to keep those other influences down. You do what you can to lead that child on the right path, but at the end of the day they've got free will and if they choose to disobey what you've taught tried to teach them over the years it's not the parents fault it's the "kids" fault no matter what their age.

In the sense of God, that would mean that there's guidance along the way for that person "child" to follow, but at the end of the day, the will to use those teachings/guidance is their choice.

Shouldn't be God's fault or a parentals fault, when everything is all said and done it's up to the child to decide for themselves what they want to do.

IF any of that made any sense

If we take that line of reasoning, though, then God is responsible for all the bad in the world, because parents are responsible for anything their children might do, remember? And if the kid does grow up to be a criminal, then the parents screwed up.

 

[Phoenix]

thats strictly because you dont know the reasons why. Because of perfect justice and perfect wisdom beyond human comprehension...

The reasons why are irrelevant to this discussion. If you want to use a "God is a parent" analogy, if you want to give God all the reasons and rights a parent has, then give him all the parent's responsibilities too.

You compare God to a parent and humanity to a child. If a child screwed up, it's the parent's responsibility. If the child grows up to be a criminal, he wasn't raised well by the parent.

humans do what they think fit and see how far we have gotten?

Oh, you mean like art, philosophy and science, getting to the Moon, exploring our Solar System, the universal suffrage, quantum mechanics, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Gandhi, Einstein?

Oh yeah, we suck.

you have to realize the whole issue at hand and not just scrutinize one small portion of it.

Then use analogies that fit this mysterious issue at hand and not half-assed ones.

 

[╬ProperArtist╬]

If we take that line of reasoning, though, then God is responsible for all the bad in the world, because parents are responsible for anything their children might do, remember? And if the kid does grow up to be a criminal, then the parents screwed up.

Wouldn't that mean then as a parental figure, Armageddon would be a fitting punishment for the side of society that one could say God has failed with?

As with any parent if you do bad things you're punished, so this would be God's responsibility as that type of figure to unleash said punish only at a later time in one's rather than right after the events occur.

It's kinda like he's giving you the tools and influences around you to make the choices you want but at the end of it all, heaven or hell is your reward/punish (even though as you say, hell isn't the actual term for it)

humans do what they think fit and see how far we have gotten?

Oh, you mean like art, philosophy and science, getting to the Moon, exploring our Solar System, the universal suffrage, quantum mechanics, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Gandhi, Einstein?

Oh yeah, we suck.

To be fair, everything there happened over hundreds and thousands of years through the evolution of man (by evolution of man i mean by our mind-however Phoenix as you know seeing as we talked about it back a few times I believe in Progressive Creationism).
I think Smooth is referring only to the bad (no shit), but he's right in some respect as you are too. Things that have broadened our understanding of the world and creative genius have come with the price of millions of failures along the way and millions more casualties, but that happens with any new way of thinking that goes against the norm of the society at the current moment in time.

Actually i don't know what I'm getting at there
-------
Just to put it out there, I honestly don't believe as a Christian one needs to be baptized to be saved, If you have faith in something you should be fine in God's eyes, The bible was God's word/influence handed down to man therefore it is skewed and biased because MAN IS NOT PERFECT WE ARE A FLAWED SPECIES. Also anyone who forces their religion or beliefs on others are wrong no matter how much they try to justify it. I mean really do you honestly believe God allowed many a cultures go down the drain and "burn in hell" just because they weren't Christians?

I mean really Dogma is a good movie <.<

 

[Phoenix]

Wouldn't that mean then as a parental figure, Armageddon would be a fitting punishment for the side of society that one could say God has failed with?

As with any parent if you do bad things you're punished, so this would be God's responsibility as that type of figure to unleash said punish only at a later time in one's rather than right after the events occur.

It's kinda like he's giving you the tools and influences around you to make the choices you want but at the end of it all, heaven or hell is your reward/punish (even though as you say, hell isn't the actual term for it)

Tell me, when parents punish their children, why do they do it?

To be fair, everything there happened over hundreds and thousands of years through the evolution of man (by evolution of man i mean by our mind-however Phoenix as you know seeing as we talked about it back a few times I believe in Progressive Creationism).
I think Smooth is referring only to the bad (no shit), but he's right in some respect as you are too. Things that have broadened our understanding of the world and creative genius have come with the price of millions of failures along the way and millions more casualties, but that happens with any new way of thinking that goes against the norm of the society at the current moment in time.

Actually i don't know what I'm getting at there

I have never called the human species perfect. I simply mean to express that it's getting tiring that 1 out of 2 Christians think we suck, we're sinful, we can't rule ourselves, we screwed up everything, the world is in worse shape by the day, etcetera etcetera. Jesus H. Christ people, we have villains and heroes in our history.

 

[╬ProperArtist╬]

Tell me, when parents punish their children, why do they do it?

To teach that it's wrong as a consequence.
For action there is an equal and opposite reaction in the sense that if a child does something good they're reward with something that makes them happy and if they do something bad they are punished threw pain or removal of something that makes them happy.

I honestly believe that God allows us to do what we want but puts certain important events in our lives that help shape us (which are up for interpretation because they can go either way depending on how the subject looks at the situation)

That makes sense right?

I have never called the human species perfect. I simply mean to express that it's getting tiring that 1 out of 2 Christians think we suck, we're sinful, we can't rule ourselves, we screwed up everything, the world is in worse shape by the day, etcetera etcetera. Jesus H. Christ people, we have villains and heroes in our history.

I know what you mean I can't stand those types of people either. People who act self righteous and try and force the bible or whatever else they believe down others throats.

That can be said for any religion/belief though.

 

[Phoenix]

To teach that it's wrong as a consequence.
For action there is an equal and opposite reaction in the sense that if a child does something good they're reward with something that makes them happy and if they do something bad they are punished threw pain or removal of something that makes them happy.

I honestly believe that God allows us to do what we want but puts certain important events in our lives that help shape us (which are up for interpretation because they can go either way depending on how the subject looks at the situation)

That makes sense right?

I disagree. Parents punish their children to help them. If a child steals something, and a parent punishes him, it's to teach him not to steal, so that the child becomes a better person and learns not to do it again.

Every single punishment haded down by parents is for this purpose: to teach the child to better him, because you love him and want him to be happy. Am I wrong?

That can be said for any religion/belief though.

Yeah, but dude, you don't see Hindus doing this. Hell, you don't even see Muslims and Jews (a similar religion) doing this. If you think low of your own species, aren't you thinking low of yourself?

 

[╬ProperArtist╬]

I disagree. Parents punish their children to help them. If a child steals something, and a parent punishes him, it's to teach him not to steal, so that the child becomes a better person and learns not to do it again.

Every single punishment haded down by parents is for this purpose: to teach the child to better him, because you love him and want him to be happy. Am I wrong?

You'd be right but i'd see it as both ways. Punishment for the sake of character development and consequence.

Yeah, but dude, you don't see Hindus doing this. Hell, you don't even see Muslims and Jews (a similar religion) doing this. If you think low of your own species, aren't you thinking low of yourself?

As with any species or race whatever the case may be there will always be people who are the lowest of the low that make a bad representation for the others.
Take some of the African American community for instance (I am black FYI) but as most know there's a difference between black people and niggas.
Most are ashamed of that group seeing as they bring the race as a whole a bad name. We hate what they are considering they've seem to forgotten where they came from and don't really appreciate it not to mention well they're ignorant. Just because we hate them doesn't mean we hate ourselves. We just hate those that make us as a whole look bad because as they say "You're only as good as your weakest link"
The same goes for religion. I am a Christian but i can't stand Christians who will not allow for anything but Christianity to exist and shun nonbelievers for believing in something other than that. The same can be said for several Atheist who look down their noses at Christians because they think were' stupid for having faith in a higher power and an afterlife rather than rooting in the ground.

 

[Phoenix]

You'd be right but i'd see it as both ways. Punishment for the sake of character development and consequence.

What parent do you know punishes their children for the sake of punishing? Parents punish their children because they love them, simple as that. The difference between a parent's punishment and the common christian hell is that hell is eternal pain. What purpose would it serve anyone to torture someone eternally? If you learn your lessons, how could you apply them?

As with any species or race whatever the case may be there will always be people who are the lowest of the low that make a bad representation for the others.
Take some of the African American community for instance (I am black FYI) but as most know there's a difference between black people and niggas.
Most are ashamed of that group seeing as they bring the race as a whole a bad name. We hate what they are considering they've seem to forgotten where they came from and don't really appreciate it not to mention well they're ignorant. Just because we hate them doesn't mean we hate ourselves. We just hate those that make us as a whole look bad because as they say "You're only as good as your weakest link"

That's a retarded way of seeing the world. It's as retarded as claiming credit for Gandhi because he was a good person and a human, so since you are a human, you must be good. You are you, Gandhi is Gandhi, a murderer is a murderer. The good in humanity outweighs the bad, but that's my opinion of course. Other people might believe that the bad outweighs the good, but that doesn't mean humanity is bad by definition, just like it'd be a mistake to say humanity is good by definition.

The same goes for religion. I am a Christian but i can't stand Christians who will not allow for anything but Christianity to exist and shun nonbelievers for believing in something other than that. The same can be said for several Atheist who look down their noses at Christians because they think were' stupid for having faith in a higher power and an afterlife rather than rooting in the ground.

Ah, but you see, I don't mind Christians thinking that I am a lost sheep in need of help. It's when they express it while ignoring my arguments that I get annoyed.

I am of the opinion that believing in a god without objective proof is foolish, however that's my subjective, imperfect, human opinion, which may be right or wrong. If the person I'm debating admits that there's a chance he might be wrong, just like I do, I respect him. If he's not willing to even consider the possibility, then what respect could I have for him?

 

[╬ProperArtist╬]

What parent do you know punishes their children for the sake of punishing? Parents punish their children because they love them, simple as that. The difference between a parent's punishment and the common christian hell is that hell is eternal pain. What purpose would it serve anyone to torture someone eternally? If you learn your lessons, how could you apply them?

I mean A child is punished in the sense that he did something bad. You do bad you get bad you do good you get good, of course that wouldn't explain why the good die young and the bad lie long or the good get bad and the bad continuously get good.

I'll stop now xD

That's a retarded way of seeing the world. It's as retarded as claiming credit for Gandhi because he was a good person and a human, so since you are a human, you must be good. You are you, Gandhi is Gandhi, a murderer is a murderer. The good in humanity outweighs the bad, but that's my opinion of course. Other people might believe that the bad outweighs the good, but that doesn't mean humanity is bad by definition, just like it'd be a mistake to say humanity is good by definition.

It may be retarded but alas that is how most people few religion/race/etc in general by the most common stereotypes.

Ah, but you see, I don't mind Christians thinking that I am a lost sheep in need of help. It's when they express it while ignoring my arguments that I get annoyed.

I am of the opinion that believing in a god without objective proof is foolish, however that's my subjective, imperfect, human opinion, which may be right or wrong. If the person I'm debating admits that there's a chance he might be wrong, just like I do, I respect him. If he's not willing to even consider the possibility, then what respect could I have for him?

I see what you're saying there. Of course there could always be a chance that I'm wrong hell no one really knows because no one has died and come back to life to tell us. Well there are several people (like that guy who wrote the book 90 mins in heaven, he drowned and got brought back to life)
But other than that there's no one to tell us for sure what's out there beyond living fleshing so anything could be up for chance.

Of course as you know I still have faith that there is a God because my experiences support that. That's just me though, but any of it could be up for debate

 

[Phoenix]

I mean A child is punished in the sense that he did something bad. You do bad you get bad you do good you get good, of course that wouldn't explain why the good die young and the bad lie long or the good get bad and the bad continuously get good.

Yes dude, but like I said, the parent does to better their child. This is why the punishment is temporary: the parent's ultimate purpose is to see the child happy. With which part are you in disagreement?

 

[╬ProperArtist╬]

Yes dude, but like I said, the parent does to better their child. This is why the punishment is temporary: the parent's ultimate purpose is to see the child happy. With which part are you in disagreement?

nevermind xD
I agree with that completey
the only thing I'm saying is that there's only so much a parental can do, the child has free will so if they choose to go against their parentals teachings for whatever reason, it shouldn't be the parents fault. At the end of the day it's up to the child whether or not to apply those teachings.

I could have been taught not to smoke weed by my parents (which i don't btw), been shown numerous pics of the resulting complications in my body, been taken to the doctor's office and told more in depth what it does to you, shown someone who's smoked it and how it's effected them, blah blah blah. But if i still choose to go out and smoke some weed with my friends that's not my parents fault, they did everything they could to keep me from doing it. It was my choice after all things were said and done.

Or like your parents tell you to use a condom when you have sex, they show you, make you take one of those baby classes where you take care of a fake baby, the whole nine years but if you still go out and get someone pregnant, it's your fault not the parents.

you know?

 

[Phoenix]

Oh, aye, it was your choice, but how you're raised always affects this. Also, you picked examples where the parent would not actually punish the child, but support him.

 

[╬ProperArtist╬]

my bad but you get what I'm saying though right?