Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point (watch the video in the OP please)



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BlackOsprey

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So earlier today, I watched this neat video that analyzes and compares Birth By Sleep to KH1 and II. Yeah, the length is daunting, but... watch it all the way through. I think that the one who made this has some excellent points. What do you think?

[video=youtube;UhcqCIWc2wY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhcqCIWc2wY[/video]
 
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FFxStrife

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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

Watched the entire thing, he forgot to talk about the best thing about BBS: the Command Board!

Seriously though, I enjoyed BBS for what it was but I definitely agree that the gameplay was a mess. The best battle system for me will always be KH2 and I'm glad KH3 seems to be heading into that direction again. I didn't mind some of the characters being stupid too much since this isn't really a new thing in any work of fiction, but I do agree that I wasn't moved by their friendship for the most part.

He makes some good points about how KH1's story worked and I hope KH3 follows it the same way giving more importance to the Disney worlds. I actually never thought about how much better the overall experience with the story was in KH1. Entertaining video.
 
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kirabook

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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

I personally don't see how people feel that KH2 is less convoluted than BbS. KH2 introduced so many things and never explained them. They added in information that wasn't available to most of the world for years, making some plot points in other games all the more obscure.

- Although Sora is my second favorite character and I love "special" characters (super special powers, 'the one', demon side, etc), I don't mind that Sora is a part of something bigger and not THE CHOSENNNNNN. While Nomura and some people in game (namely Xehanort) insist that Sora is nothing special, he still is. Kingdom Hearts 1 already destroyed the idea that Sora was 'chosen/special' when Riku took HIS blade back. Sora is still strangely special because the keyblade itself chose him and no one passed it down to him. We haven't seen that 'power' from anyone else yet, therefore, making him 'special'.

- I really don't mind how 'convoluted' it is. We all know that Nomura is making up some details as he goes along, even if he has a set idea on where he wants to go. Some things will get lost along the way and I don't mind filling in those gaps myself. Maybe some people don't like that (obviously they don't), but I feel like people blow up at the smallest most insignificant details. As long as the game tries to explain it to me, and it makes some kind of sense and isn't too out of this world ridiculous, I am willing to suspend my disbelief. When some people say KH1 by itself is stupid and convoluted, why would they continue to push further into other games when the only option is to become more convoluted

- KH2 had a huge problem, that problem being trying to stuff too many plot points into one game. KH2 is when the 'convolution' began, which is why it needed all these extra games to correctly address them. Going from KH1 to KH2 was fine. They didn't add very much inbetween and basically tried to erase most of its significance in KH2. KH2 had no sense of urgency because there was NO new conflict going from KH1 to KH2. All Sora wanted to do was find Riku. That didn't make for a very interesting game, so they stuffed allll this extra stuff into KH2 and hardly explained any of it. I appreciate BbS and some of the other side games addressing loose ends and plot holes because if they didn't exist, we'd be going into KH3 and it'd be even worse in terms of introducing a bazillion questions with hardly any answers.

- The battle system is my favorite out of all the games. I enjoyed the deck and I enjoyed the command styles. I never had a problem with combos and stuff, but that might be because I never paid attention to stuff like that. I think if they had cleaned it up a little more (more knock back on enemies, bosses with more strategy and less dodging, even out the power of some of the commands), it could arguably be the best in the series. I like it more than KH2's system because I felt like I wasn't relying on reaction commands and limits to kill everything. The repeated reaction commands really got old, and the limits felt quite OP (even though I heard they got nerfed). I don't mind going back to the 'classic' battle system of KH1 and KH2, but I hope they can someone incorporate the variety BbS had with all its different commands and magic and whatnot. (I like command styles more than drives, I like 'magic' spells that are a combination of melee and magic -if that makes sense-, etc) Oh, and I should note I never really used shocklocks or d-links, just like I never used summons in KH2. (but I did use Bambi and Tinkerbell in KH1)

That said, here are my problems with BbS and what my 'answer' is to them
Terra's Naivety
Terra trusting some of these obvious villains is painful (so is his voice). I believe they were trying to replicate Riku's willingness to aide the villains, but they missed something important. Riku never really trusted them, he used them to get what he wanted. He helped Maleficent because she'd help him find Kairi (though he obviously was convinced by her "Oh look at him, he got new friends boyo") He helped ASoD because he needed more power to fight Sora (Of course, he didn't know his body was going to get jacked) Terra on the other hand... the only one he seemed immediately suspicious of is the Queen in Dwarf Woodlands. There are some villains whose appearance should give you a bad vibe. Aqua had a bad vibe from looking at Lady Trawhateverhernameis and they look like normal people in comparison. They made Terra TOO naive, but I guess they couldn't find another way to have Terra trust Xehanort long enough to give in to darkness

Aqua's Distrust
They made Aqua super inconsistent with her trust in Terra. One moment, she's convinced he can do no wrong. The next, she's convinced that he's dabbling in darkness. If they wanted to make her distrust Terra like they did in the game, maybe it would have been better if she actually witnessed him doing something sketchy and that's what the argument was about. My explanation for Aqua's attitude canonwise is that she is too much like Master Eraqus, so quick to accuse someone of dabbling in darkness without knowing why or how, just "DARKNESS IS BAD". If that explanation is used, then her understanding the balance of light and darkness (something the Fairy Godmother mentions to Aqua's very first world) is a big character development point for her.

Eraqus's Trust in Xehanort

This one is... well, I kind of have feelings about this one. On the one hand, Eraqus already knew Xehanort's plan to basically destroy the world, but he still trusted his opinion over his pupils that Baldy barely knew. Like Eraqus what??? This man scratched up your face and went on to do all kinds of mischievous things, why weren't you suspicious?

At the same time, I think what happened with Eraqus is... he was trying to give Xehanort a second chance. I think in his own way, Eraqus was trying to understand Xehanort's point of view that there should be a balance of light and dark, and maybe all darkness was not bad. But in doing so, he turned a blind eye to Xehanort's obvious scheming and when he realized his mistake, he hit the nuclear button and decided to kill Ven.

Soooo, I don't know. Maybe they could have found a better way to create this dynamic between Eraqus and Xehanort without having Eraqus already know of Xehanort's plans?

I guess.... that's it. For BbS anyway. I can find a problem in all the KH games, but I still enjoy them and the story, even all its convolution.
 
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ajmrowland

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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

This has a lot of wrong info.


Well, not a lot but a little.
 
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Ezio

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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

I personally don't see how people feel that KH2 is less convoluted than BbS. KH2 introduced so many things and never explained them. They added in information that wasn't available to most of the world for years, making some plot points in other games all the more obscure.

- Although Sora is my second favorite character and I love "special" characters (super special powers, 'the one', demon side, etc), I don't mind that Sora is a part of something bigger and not THE CHOSENNNNNN. While Nomura and some people in game (namely Xehanort) insist that Sora is nothing special, he still is. Kingdom Hearts 1 already destroyed the idea that Sora was 'chosen/special' when Riku took HIS blade back. Sora is still strangely special because the keyblade itself chose him and no one passed it down to him. We haven't seen that 'power' from anyone else yet, therefore, making him 'special'.

- I really don't mind how 'convoluted' it is. We all know that Nomura is making up some details as he goes along, even if he has a set idea on where he wants to go. Some things will get lost along the way and I don't mind filling in those gaps myself. Maybe some people don't like that (obviously they don't), but I feel like people blow up at the smallest most insignificant details. As long as the game tries to explain it to me, and it makes some kind of sense and isn't too out of this world ridiculous, I am willing to suspend my disbelief. When some people say KH1 by itself is stupid and convoluted, why would they continue to push further into other games when the only option is to become more convoluted

- KH2 had a huge problem, that problem being trying to stuff too many plot points into one game. KH2 is when the 'convolution' began, which is why it needed all these extra games to correctly address them. Going from KH1 to KH2 was fine. They didn't add very much inbetween and basically tried to erase most of its significance in KH2. KH2 had no sense of urgency because there was NO new conflict going from KH1 to KH2. All Sora wanted to do was find Riku. That didn't make for a very interesting game, so they stuffed allll this extra stuff into KH2 and hardly explained any of it. I appreciate BbS and some of the other side games addressing loose ends and plot holes because if they didn't exist, we'd be going into KH3 and it'd be even worse in terms of introducing a bazillion questions with hardly any answers.

- The battle system is my favorite out of all the games. I enjoyed the deck and I enjoyed the command styles. I never had a problem with combos and stuff, but that might be because I never paid attention to stuff like that. I think if they had cleaned it up a little more (more knock back on enemies, bosses with more strategy and less dodging, even out the power of some of the commands), it could arguably be the best in the series. I like it more than KH2's system because I felt like I wasn't relying on reaction commands and limits to kill everything. The repeated reaction commands really got old, and the limits felt quite OP (even though I heard they got nerfed). I don't mind going back to the 'classic' battle system of KH1 and KH2, but I hope they can someone incorporate the variety BbS had with all its different commands and magic and whatnot. (I like command styles more than drives, I like 'magic' spells that are a combination of melee and magic -if that makes sense-, etc) Oh, and I should note I never really used shocklocks or d-links, just like I never used summons in KH2. (but I did use Bambi and Tinkerbell in KH1)

That said, here are my problems with BbS and what my 'answer' is to them
Terra's Naivety
Terra trusting some of these obvious villains is painful (so is his voice). I believe they were trying to replicate Riku's willingness to aide the villains, but they missed something important. Riku never really trusted them, he used them to get what he wanted. He helped Maleficent because she'd help him find Kairi (though he obviously was convinced by her "Oh look at him, he got new friends boyo") He helped ASoD because he needed more power to fight Sora (Of course, he didn't know his body was going to get jacked) Terra on the other hand... the only one he seemed immediately suspicious for is the Queen in Dwarf Woodlands. There are some villains whose appearance should give you a bad vibe. Aqua had a bad vibe from looking at Lady Trawhateverhernameis and they look like normal people in comparison. They made Terra TOO naive, but I guess they couldn't find another way to have Terra trust Xehanort long enough to give in to darkness

Aqua's Distrust
They made Aqua super inconsistent with her trust in Terra. One moment, she's convinced he can do no wrong. The next, she's convinced that he's dabbling in darkness. If they wanted to make her distrust Terra like they did in the game, maybe it would have been better if she actually witnessed him doing something sketchy and that's what the argument was about. My explanation for Aqua's attitude canonwise is that she is too much like Master Eraqus, so quick to accuse someone of dabbling in darkness without knowing why or how, just "DARKNESS IS BAD". If that explanation is used, then her understanding the balance of light and darkness (something the Fairy Godmother mentions in Aqua's very first world) is a big character development point for her.

Eraqus's Trust in Xehanort

This one is... well, I kind of have feelings about this one. On the one hand, Eraqus already knew Xehanort's plan to basically destroy the world, but he still trusted his opinion over his pupils that Baldy barely knew. Like Eraqus what??? This man scratched up your face and went on to do all kinds of mischievous things, why weren't you suspicious?

At the same time, I think what happened with Eraqus is... he was trying to give Xehanort a second chance. I think in his own way, Eraqus was trying to understand Xehanort's point of view that there should be a balance of light and dark, and maybe all darkness was not bad. But in doing so, he turned a blind eye to Xehanort's obvious scheming and when he realized his mistake, he hit the nuclear button and decided to kill Ven.

Soooo, I don't know. Maybe they could have found a better way to create this dynamic between Eraqus and Xehanort without having Eraqus already know of Xehanort's plans?

I guess.... that's it. For BbS anyway. I can find a problem in all the KH games, but I still enjoy them and the story, even all its convolution.
This has a lot of wrong info.
.
 

FFxStrife

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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

"This has a lot of wrong info."

Proceeds not to talk about the wrong info.
 
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VoidGear.

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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

I was already confused after like 90 seconds.
"Many different gameplay styles".
Yeah sure, why not give players the exact same gameplay in...what, eight or nine different games? That sure sounds like dayum much fun.
I'm super glad the gameplay wasn't always the same tbh.
 

FFxStrife

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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

I was already confused after like 90 seconds.
"Many different gameplay styles".
Yeah sure, why not give players the exact same gameplay in...what, eight or nine different games? That sure sounds like dayum much fun.
I'm super glad the gameplay wasn't always the same tbh.
There are many other ways to make the gameplay fresh without changing literally everything and making it objectively worse in comparison.
 

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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

There are many other ways to make the gameplay fresh without changing literally everything and making it objectively worse in comparison.
This, this, this, this!!

never have been a fan of the Deck
 

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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

There are many other ways to make the gameplay fresh without changing literally everything and making it objectively worse in comparison.
I think was KH2's gameplay was way different than KH1's, but still the same thing we all loved. So I can't get neither why the command deck is everywhere today.
 

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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

The command deck is literally an evolution of the card based system from Chain of Memories with the commands literally replacing the cards.
It's also much more geared towards techniques, magic and "sleight" abilities while the KH 1/2 system puts more emphasis on normal "plain" weapon combos and physical weapon bashing.

I'd wager an "ideal" system would be a hybrid between these two extremes that allows enough customization so that every player can play in the style he/she favours.
 

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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

The command deck is literally an evolution of the card based system from Chain of Memories with the commands literally replacing the cards.
It's also much more geared towards techniques, magic and "sleight" abilities while the KH 1/2 system puts more emphasis on normal "plain" weapon combos and physical weapon bashing.

I'd wager an "ideal" system would be a hybrid between these two extremes that allows enough customization so that every player can play in the style he/she favours.
 

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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

QUESTION!

BB says that Sora got his keyblade because of Ventus' heart inside his body. Is that true? I thought he got "Riku's" keyblade somehow when Riku succumbed to the darkness on the Destiny Islands in the beginning of KH1.
Could anyone enlighten me please? Because now I'm extremely confused. I thought Ventus didn't really have anything to do with that.
 

KeybladeLordSora

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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

QUESTION!

BB says that Sora got his keyblade because of Ventus' heart inside his body. Is that true? I thought he got "Riku's" keyblade somehow when Riku succumbed to the darkness on the Destiny Islands in the beginning of KH1.
Could anyone enlighten me please? Because now I'm extremely confused. I thought Ventus didn't really have anything to do with that.
Ventus had no effect on Sora getting a keyblade. All Ven's heart did was give Roxas his appearance and give him the ability to dual wield.
 
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