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Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point (watch the video in the OP please)



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Sephiroth0812

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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

QUESTION!

BB says that Sora got his keyblade because of Ventus' heart inside his body. Is that true? I thought he got "Riku's" keyblade somehow when Riku succumbed to the darkness on the Destiny Islands in the beginning of KH1.
Could anyone enlighten me please? Because now I'm extremely confused. I thought Ventus didn't really have anything to do with that.
That "info" is false and has actually been rebuffed by so many different people already that I clearly wonder that there are still people around who believe/spread this nonsense.

Sora's ability to wield has nothing to do with the presence of Ventus' heart at all. Ventus only provides the second Keyblade for dual-wielding.

The primary condition for wielding a Keyblade is an exceptionally strong heart and Sora already proved to have such a thing when he literally saved Ventus' crippled heart from certain doom in the prologue of BBS were he was chronologically speaking possibly only a few hours old.
"Saving the heart of a Keyblade Wielder as a toddler" is certainly a huge recommendation letter by itself and a testament to the strength of the heart in question, so the Keyblade itself would certainly deem Sora worthy on his own.
 

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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

Ventus had no effect on Sora getting a keyblade. All Ven's heart did was give Roxas his appearance and give him the ability to dual wield.
Thanks. That's what I'm thinking and that's what quite makes me mad about the video.

I'm not completely through but I noticed he holds a lot of hatred for BBS because apparently Ventus "giving" Sora the keyblade destroyed "the reason Sora was supposed to have gotten the keyblade in KH1". So naturally, I wanna know if that's even true. >:

That "info" is false and has actually been rebuffed by so many different people already that I clearly wonder that there are still people around who believe/spread this nonsense.

Sora's ability to wield has nothing to do with the presence of Ventus' heart at all. Ventus only provides the second Keyblade for dual-wielding.

The primary condition for wielding a Keyblade is an exceptionally strong heart and Sora already proved to have such a thing when he literally saved Ventus' crippled heart from certain doom in the prologue of BBS were he was chronologically speaking possibly only a few hours old.
"Saving the heart of a Keyblade Wielder as a toddler" is certainly a huge recommendation letter by itself and a testament to the strength of the heart in question, so the Keyblade itself would certainly deem Sora worthy on his own.
Thanks to you, too. I was quite worried now.
That beginning of BBS is also a reason I wonder he's mad at the game because actually, it makes Sora appear like an even greater, kinder character with even more heart-power than KH1.
 

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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

Thanks to you, too. I was quite worried now.
That beginning of BBS is also a reason I wonder he's mad at the game because actually, it makes Sora appear like an even greater, kinder character with even more heart-power than KH1.
It's obvious that someone didn't do his/her homework in regards to the facts of the series before starting a rant.
Classical case of screaming before thinking I'd say.
 

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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

It's obvious that someone didn't do his/her homework in regards to the facts of the series before starting a rant.
Classical case of screaming before thinking I'd say.
It's quite disappointing because he DOES have some points.
But there's still a whole lot I have to disagree with. Good I like BB's sense of humor, so it's still worth it.
 

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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

"It's almost like fans of the series nowadays are more concerned about fact checking and proving that there are no plot holes in the story." (22:13)

huh.

He DOES have a point.
 
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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

"It's almost like fans of the series nowadays are more concerned about fact checking and proving that there are no plot holes in the story." (22:13)

huh.

He DOES have a point.
Dunno.
I'm quite glad there are people explaining the "plot holes" in a way that makes them quite plausible.
Because I'd actually agree that there are no real major plot holes (there's stuff like Dolan and Gooby not knowing about the keyblade or about Yen Sid's tower, but that's not really major).
There's just millions of things that aren't properly explained, which sucks, but still.

I mean, why not rather spend your time trying to explain plotholes than on bashing the game for every flaw it has?
Everyone who really thinks about it knows there are flaws. But while some people hype the games too hard, some also hate them too hard. Like...as if there was not a single good thing about anything but KH1-KH2.
 

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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

It's obvious that someone didn't do his/her homework in regards to the facts of the series before starting a rant.
Classical case of screaming before thinking I'd say.
His/her? It's clearly a guy talking, did you even watch it?

Easier to just call it a rant and ignore the rest of the 49 minute video I guess.

I mean, why not rather spend your time trying to explain plotholes than on bashing the game for every flaw it has?
Everyone who really thinks about it knows there are flaws. But while some people hype the games too hard, some also hate them too hard. Like...as if there was not a single good thing about anything but KH1-KH2.
This is meant to be an analysis and his opinions on how the game compares to the first two. You shouldn't take this as him just hating the game and trying to make you do so as well, he even explains it at the end.
 
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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

His/her? It's clearly a guy talking, did you even watch it?

Easier to just call it a rant and ignore the rest of the 49 minute video I guess.
But...it IS basically a rant about BBS. D:
While he does have some good points, some other stuff is just "meh" and sounds like he's just trying to bash the game.
 

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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

Jesus why is this thread so hostile?

Dude doesn't like BBS, some of his points are ill-founded or wrong, some are right or his opinion. So. There you go, everybody.
 

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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

Jesus why is this thread so hostile?

Dude doesn't like BBS, some of his points are ill-founded or wrong, some are right or his opinion. So. There you go, everybody.
Where exactly is this hostility?
I feel like were merely discussing things, somehow. I don't understand that whenever people don't agree on everything in a topic, it's hostile and apparently a waste of time.
 

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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

Jesus, Seph. Watch the video before trashing it.

Some of the details were off, storywise, but that very confusion gives credence to the idea that the narrative tends to be vague when first experienced. The video was very well thought out. It's probably the most well thought out video critique I've seen on the franchise.

You're a great guy, Seph, but you tend to get very defensive when people criticize these games, as if it's a personal offense to you. It's not conducive to a good or enriching dialogue, and it's really counterintuitive to the conversation when you don't even watch the video that the thread is clearly discussing.
 
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I find it very diddlying hilarious that people are doing exactly what the video mentioned the fandom today does; worrying more about fact checks and details scattered all over God knows where rather than just sitting back and understanding it as his opinion.

Good job kids, your an irony.

Granted not all of you are but it's still rather stupid to argue against this video's points only to be proving some of them true in doing so. Your all too defensive.
 
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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

Where exactly is this hostility?
I feel like were merely discussing things, somehow. I don't understand that whenever people don't agree on everything in a topic, it's hostile and apparently a waste of time.
I also see no real hostility around, also since at least I was responding to the single issue that was brought up about Sora, Ventus and the Keyblade.

Jesus, Seph. Watch the video before trashing it.

Some of the details were off, storywise, but that very confusion gives credence to the idea that the narrative tends to be vague when first experienced. The video was very well thought out. It's probably the most well thought out video critique I've seen on the franchise.

You're a great guy, Seph, but you tend to get very defensive when people criticize these games, as if it's a personal offense to you. It's not conducive to a good or enriching dialogue, and it's really counterintuitive to the conversation when you don't even watch the video that the thread is clearly discussing.
Pretty hard to watch a video on a computer without audio and furthermore I was talking strictly about the issue VoidGear brought up about the old and done-to-death topic with Ventus being the reason Sora can wield, which was actually rebuffed already shortly after BBS came out back in 2010.
I was not referring to the whole thing.

I really don't know where you get that from as when I check my own posts I'm actually criticizing many of the games in the KH series myself and you can believe me that I am certainly not in any form defensive or perceive a personal offense over a fun, but admittedly rather mediocre handled video game series.
If my writing style comes over as that I can only say it is not intended as such.
When I see people "criticizing" elements and parts of a work based on completely false premises though I have no qualms at all to bluntly call that out as there is no foundation.
 

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Re: Birth By Sleep - The Turning Point

Okay I watched it, even though some segments where trying way to hard to be funny.

I think I can basically agree with most that was said and more importantly I can understand where he's coming from. I still don't think he should give KH2 a free pass just because he liked the gameplay. As kirabook said before, this was truly the turning point of the series not BBS.

There is room to improve, because there always is, and I really wish BBS had gotten the budget of KHII then the command system could have truly shined. I love the many different play styles it allows but I also recognize that the impact on the enemies could have been way better.

It it wasn't for BBS, I would have given up on the series after Days, it reignited my interest in Kingdom Hearts, that's why it will always hold a special place in my heart.
 

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I find it very diddlying hilarious that people are doing exactly what the video mentioned the fandom today does; worrying more about fact checks and details scattered all over God knows where rather than just sitting back and understanding it as his opinion.

Good job kids, your an irony.

Granted not all of you are but it's still rather stupid to argue against this video's points only to be proving some of them true in doing so. Your all too defensive.
The problem is that he spends like...what? More than 40 minutes making it sound like NOT only an opinion but rather facts (and much of what he says is true, not gonna lie), only to then say "heyyy but dis only my opinion, riiight?"
It feels kinda...ludicrous really.
And as long as he bases some of his negativity about a game on false facts, I see no problem in talking about them being false - or rather, even asking, because I wasn't able to tell for sure and really just wanted to know.

I think I can basically agree with most that was said and more importantly I can understand where he's coming from. I still don't think he should give KH2 a free pass just because he liked the gameplay. As kirabook said before, this was truly the turning point of the series not BBS.
Have to agree with this.
 

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The problem is that he spends like...what? More than 40 minutes making it sound like NOT only an opinion but rather facts (and much of what he says is true, not gonna lie), only to then say "heyyy but dis only my opinion, riiight?"
It feels kinda...ludicrous really.
And as long as he bases some of his negativity about a game on false facts, I see no problem in talking about them being false - or rather, even asking, because I wasn't able to tell for sure and really just wanted to know.



Have to agree with this.
The only negativity I see here is you guys. Your so hung up on the damn lore that your completely ignoring the vid, writing it off, or thinking it stupid bashing rather than taking the time to see this persons thought out opinion.

And now your trying to rationalize this as it's the video person's fault for being "negative". Your all be very ridiculous and proving his point.
The fact is he lists positive things but is focusing on how it was a turning point and he even says it's not his thing several times but understands if others like it and that he means no offense.

I can see why this site has died so much from what I remember. Your all so defensive you get annoyed by little things. I minds well leave again, I can done see how the site is if this is how far you all derail a topic because of lore checks like he said.
 
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The only negativity I see here is you guys. Your so hung up on the damn lore that your completely ignoring the vid, writing it off, or thinking it stupid bashing rather than taking the time to see this persons thought out opinion.

And now your trying to rationalize this as it's the video person's fault for being "negative". Your all be very ridiculous and proving his point.
Oh, then do tell where any of us bashed the whole video?
I wasn't fine with some things he said that were simply, objectively wrong. I also said I agree with many of the things he said in the video.
But as I see it, the only thing you're really capable of is calling people ridiculous. I still don't see why anyone bashing his video would prove his hatred of KH after KH2, but I guess since I'm "ridiculous", I don't need to.
 

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'Kay, so somehow we went off about how this guy must not know what he's talking about AT ALL just because he got some snippets of lore wrong. I'm just gonna toss in my two Gil and give my thoughts that I got from the video.

I'm just as guilty as the rest of them in the "obsession over lore and understanding stuff" department, but this video wasn't ABOUT that. It was talking about the other stuff, the gameplay and story and overall feel of it all that I've seen so many admitting to noticing in other threads.

I mean, how many times have I seen people yelling about how poorly the main characters were portrayed in BBS? About their idiot ball juggling, or their voicework, or their "friendship" that was barely there? Oh, or about the gameplay? Thunder Surge, Mine Square, and Cura spamming. Hell, I already KNEW what the video was gonna say about Mysterious Figure because I'd heard so many variations of it here!

Almost every complaint about BBS that I saw in that video, I've seen it on the forums at least once before. Most of them weren't even things that particularly bothered me while I was playing that game, but I became aware of them because people would not stop TALKING about them.
 

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Okay, so I actually wanna give my opinion on the whole video. Since it's almost an hour long, I'll certainly miss out on a few points, sorry for that.
And no, I'm not trying to bash anything, just discuss the thing this topic is about.

Story part:

I think BB has a huge point that in KH1, Disney worlds actually mattered. I also loved the scene with all the bad guys in Hollow Bastion (and I still remember how hilarious it is in the german version) and the fact that they were actually MORE than Disney villains. KH villains. They were intertwined with the story and were actually an enemy of Sora, not just an enemy in their respective world. That's something I missed in any game after KH1, and I think it has already been a major issue in KH2, where - sure - you still visit Disney worlds and it's still somehow important for the plot (open new paths, look for friends, get rid of enemies, bla), but there just wasn't any specific reason for SDG anymore to defeat those enemies. It was simply to help their new-found friends (which isn't a bad thing, but just not the essence of KH in my opinion).

I was kinda confused when he said the friendship of TAV sucked (this part is "true" or let's say I agree mostly) while the friendship of SRK was enjoyable and believable in KH1, because in my opinion, that's not true at all. I never felt like Riku and Kairi were friends at all, it was mostly Sora-Riku and Sora-Kairi. And that scene in KH2 with Kairi recognizing Riku and them talking to Sora really isn't anywhere close to enough to convice me otherwise. But this is an overall problem of Kairi as a character and I still have my hopes up for that to change in KH3.
I just feel like saying SRK was great and TAV sucked isn't quite fair.
I heavily agree that TAV mostly felt like strangers and actually all three of them acted in very, very stupid ways. Be it believing all the shit Master Geezernort tells him, be it Ven who, instead of REALLY wondering why there's a stranger in his room maliciously telling him he'll lose his friend and tell his friends and master about this guy, actually runs after his friend like the guy said like "hey, let's trust some weird creepy guy I never met", or be it even Aqua who does things like "hey ven. go home? what you don't wanna? go. bye" and then wonders he gets into more danger.
They.were.all.stupid. It was the only reason the plot advanced anyhow. That's why their friendship often felt fake and stupid. But this has also already been a big problem since...hell, since KH1 already.
Doesn't matter if it's KH1 where "the girl" is already handled as simply some trophy and when she does come back and the player thinks "whoa nice, she'll be around to save Riku now", she just somehow gets left behind AGAIN.
Doesn't matter if it's KH CoM or KH2 where they throw like about 15 or more new people in your face of which about six seem to hold any value AT ALL.
It doesn't matter which game, KH has always had a problem with character development. It was especially heavy in BBS (and Days), but it wasn't like a "new" problem.

Next thing I remember I have to agree with were the flashbacks in BBS. Like, yeah, true, they did try SO hard to make you believe that background story instead of just letting you EXPERIENCE an actual story IN the game. Everything vital about the story is really told in damn flashbacks. Like...why?! And even those don't make much sense if you don't play with enough attention. I still don't get why they did that, just as much as I still don't get why they chose to spread Terra, Aqua and Ven when they had such an AWESOME opportunity to make this game rock with all three of them as a group.

I'm still sad about the Sora-Ventus part.
It's not really the fact that he's wrong about Sora getting the keyblade from Ventus. It's okay, it's hard to get the whole story of KH and everyone makes mistakes, seriously. I just think it's sad that he says that BBS "destroys" KH1 because of this connection and because of his false assumption.
What he says is that Sora was no longer chosen because of his strong heart and him being friendly, but because of Ventus. Instead though, Ventus connecting to Sora is easily one of the best things about BBS in my opinion if you get it right. I mentioned it before: The fact that Sora, being a few hours old at best, has such a strong heart that he's already able to save Ventus as a baby boy makes him actually seem like a special person again! After KH 2 giving Kairi a keyblade and making it seem more like Sora was actually not that much of "the chosen one", I was so happy about this and the fact that he was special again somehow. Because like BB said, a main character who has outstanding traits is someone to identify with, and in that scene (and also the end of Ventus' story, where he takes in said's heart in his)...Sora was so cool again and it really showed what a pure, nice character he really is.

About the keyblades. When Kairi got hers, I already realized shit was going to go down. I wasn't content with people just randomly getting some (I was quite happy with being speciul in KH1 for having one). I also don't understand why it's really needed. The more the series commenced, the more it really felt like keyblades were something anyone could and HAD TO get.
Like...even Dolan and Gooby aren't sure anymore if they're still important. Because, well, they're not keyblade wielders, how useful could they be, he? It's sad. I wished there were more characters without a keyblade who are use- and powerful. Back to the roots style. Back when a strong heart really was important.

I probably missed out on a million things in this, but my point is:
I agree with most what BB says about the story and characters. I agree that BBS had really big flaws and wasted a lot of potential, ignoring many of the things the fans actually wanted after KH1 and KH2.
That said, I still have to say I really think that BBS has NOT been the turning point (story-wise) at all, but rather KH2. Yup, KH2. Where the story started getting less serious, where the Disney part of the game became less important, where there were too many new characters to actually make all of them as interesting as they deserved, where there were more and more questions that players had trouble answering for themselves.

I don't think BBS is the reason Days, Re:Coded and 3D happened the way they did.
I think KH2 is the reason all four of those games happened the way they did.

So, off to gameplay:
There's hardly anything in the video I could disagree about here.
The main reason KH2 was often called a button smasher was - in my opinion - that it was WAY too easy on low difficulties. Like, if you didn't evade like every heartless in every world, you'd easily be overleveled on any mode but the hardest one, thus players assumed the game was too easy and just mashed the X-button. But when you actually start playing on a higher difficulty or lower level, you realize there's much, MUCH more to the gameplay than that.
Be it the DMs, the hit values, the dodge roll and its timing to give you invincibility when you need it, the summons, drive forms, everything.
My only major problem about this is that as a casual player, you will never, EVER experience any of that. You most likely will never appreciate how useful Chicken Little is. You most likely will rarely to never make use of NOT using a finisher because you can chain certain enemies by not doing a finisher move. And you'll most likely never make use of strategies where you don't normally use your keyblade at all. And you'll certainly not stick to air combos because they're way faster and have you land more hits before the enemy counters.
All in all, I think KH2's gameplay really was great. It takes some time to get into it other than button mashing, but it's still really nice.

BBS' problems....yup, mostly true as well. I absolutely detest enemies not staggering at all. Like, okay, they can have like a hit value where they get out of the loop, but NO STAGGERING WHATSOEVER? Are you kidding??
I also laughed at the "did they forget that Terra is in this game?" part because it's TRUE. The game's enemies are build up on three commands to permanently spam and the bosses are build up on dodging (Aqua and Ven) or fucking dying (Terra). It's stupid.
That being said, I still loved the idea of the command board and wouldn't mind it come back in a later installment of the series. Re:Coded actually made that system more enjoyable to me, while 3D sucked again because of stuff like Balloon, but they still tried to somehow improve it.
In the end, I'm glad they tried something else for once. While it could've been a million times better, I'm still quite okay with major, huge changes. That's okay.

Fun thing to me:
I don't like stuff like candy crush. Cookie clicker was funny for some of the stuff that could happen when it first released, but I also don't play stuff like that. I still enjoyed BBS a lot and I do also agree that getting a million of orbs and killing three dozen enemies at once somehow feels cool - I just don't think that's the only reason I enjoy the gameplay.

So, what do I think about this video all in all?
I think BB has some really good points regarding the problems with the gameplay, the Disney worlds/characters, the character development and the direction KH is going. SE is trying to give us more and more new stuff, while actually, most of us really want the existing stuff to expand, to evolve, to get better and more approachable.
I would've wished for him to actually dive more into the flaws of KH2 as well (even though he did mention some) instead of just saying "I forgive KH2 for not being soo good because..uhm...the basics of KH1 are still there!".

I'm pretty sure this post is super confusing. I'm sorry. And wtf when did it turn 2 am. I could swear I started typing like 59384 hours ago. Sorry.
 
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