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Atheism vs. Religion



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Hollow Bastion

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Does anyone have definitive proof of what occurs in the afterlife, without using circular reasoning?

And technically, the concept of Hell is that it is the absense of God. God created existence. If we go to hell, we are void of God, yes? Therefore, we are void of existence. Hell is nonexistence.
 
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Eclipse

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Hell is there. God is there. Heaven is there...God created the heavens and the earth. God is everywhere, always was, is, and is to come. Hell is the dwelling of Satan. Just believing in god does not get you saved from hell. We have all committed sins, lying, stealing, hatred. Jesus didn't and he died for our sins, took on every sin that was is and is to come and rose on the third day. He took the price for us. Even the demons believe there is a god, and shudder at his name. If you believe in jesus christ paying for your sins, you are saved from the pits of hell. Judgement day will come, and those who didn't believe will be judged and thrown into the lake of fire.

Hell is eternal seperation from God. Hell isn't temporary..it's forever...you go there..and you are there forever. Hell is the absence of god, Heaven is to be with him. Hell is a punishment. God is the ruler over everything, even hell. But hell is the punishment for those who have not repented of their sins
 

文偉立

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TwilightSoulKey said:
Hell is there. God is there. Heaven is there...God created the heavens and the earth. God is everywhere, always was, is, and is to come. Hell is the dwelling of Satan. Just believing in god does not get you saved from hell. We have all committed sins, lying, stealing, hatred. Jesus didn't and he died for our sins, took on every sin that was is and is to come and rose on the third day. He took the price for us. Even the demons believe there is a god, and shudder at his name. If you believe in jesus christ paying for your sins, you are saved from the pits of hell. Judgement day will come, and those who didn't believe will be judged and thrown into the lake of fire.

We are all sinned then. An inevitable doom to us all for this unproven fate will render us all.

I cannot understand this logic.

Hell is eternal seperation from God. Hell isn't temporary..it's forever...you go there..and you are there forever. Hell is the absence of god, Heaven is to be with him. Hell is a punishment. God is the ruler over everything, even hell. But hell is the punishment for those who have not repented of their sins

Hell is fire and brimstone. Do we not have brimstone and fire on our land? Would hell not be land itself?
 
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If you ask Jesus into your life..if you accept that he died for your sins you are saved. You have been redeemed. you are no longer seperated from god, and no longer will have to pay the price of being in hell one day. Yes hell is fire and brimstone...but hell is an unbearable punishment. there was a story in the bible about a man who had everything, so rich, so much money. And a poor man, who was right with God, and had nothing. The rich man died, and so did the poor man. The rich man went to hell, the poor man went to heaven.
The rich man asked: please this punishment is unbearable, (he said to the poor man in heaven) dip your finger in some water and let the drop fall on my tongue..please just one drop.
The poor man said: I cannot even do that, for we are eternally seperated, i cannot be with hell, hell cannot be with heaven.
The rich man said: please! if not, at least warn my family about this place, that they may not have to suffer like me
The poor man said: They have the teachers, the priests, and the rabbi's around them. If they do not believe them, what makes you think they will believe you?


The bible is god inspired....written in accordance. It has hundreds of authors, over many many years, that wrote the different books. but they were all inspired by god. may it be in dreams, or in thoughts. Neither part of what they say argues with another part of the bible. And even though they wrote the parts over hundreds of years, by hundreds of authors, they are brought together into one book. that seems as if it was written by one. The bible depicts hell in detail, and it is not a place you would like to go to.
 

Hollow Bastion

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Let's not forget the books of the Bible that were banned from being a part of it. Like, for example, the OTHER book of Revelations (can't remember the author, but I'm pretty sure it was also written by an apostle). It wasn't included because the people did eventually get released out of hell, cleansed, and put into heaven, because that apostle is looking down upon hell with Jesus and cannot understand why such a loving God would allow his own creation to be tortured so.
 
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Eclipse

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the book of Revelations was written by John, the only survivor of the apostles, who were all martyred for standing up for Jesus. He was told in a dream by God the end times, and wrote them down in the book of Revelations. There weren't any books that were banned. The ones that were were in the book of mormons which is not Christianity. Mormons believe that god pretty much messed up writing the bible, and they wrote a new one, which is getting changed every so often. The Bible has never changed over thousands of years. The book of mormons has many books that speak of a new way and commandment of God. Which is not true. In the Bible it states that it is the whole living word of God, if anything is changed or taken from this, may they be condemned to death. Therefore a man wrote the book of mormons and that is against the Bible.



You have a free will. you decide whether you will go to heaven or not. God gave us a free will...we choose to love him..you can or you can't. you either in or out. If god made us all just love him automatically, what kinda love is that? automatic? that's not real love. He gave us free will. and those that choose to love him will be saved. If you are in hell, it was your decision not love him. You had your whole life to decide. and you never know when you are gonna die, so it's best you decide.
 

Hollow Bastion

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Um..the books I'm referring to were written before the official New Testament was released. >.> In other words, these books were written in first 300 or so years after Jesus. If you do some research, you'll see there are several books that were excluded from the Bible, mainly because they were Gnostic or related to Gnostic.

Free will. Heh. Do you believe in fate or predestination? Then again, how do you know that your free will only seems to be free will? But in fact it has already been predetermined by God's omniscience.
 
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it's sort of a mix between god and your decision. god gives you chances..he gives you people in your life. they talk to you. but you deny them. they talk to you about god, about the bible but you deny them. god puts those chances in your life, but if you deny them. your fault

as far as the extra books, of course they were denied into the bible. The bible has over 4000 prophesies that pointed towards jesus christ before he was even born and if those books contradict the rest of the bible or god, or do not go with what god commanded of course they were never accepted into the bible. They contradicted the bible. There are so many prophesies that lead to jesus christ that were proven true, that one scientist described all the odds coming true as if you were going to cover the whole earth in small little tiles (i dont remember the dimensions). and under one tile the bottom was painted red, and if you were to wander around the earth and pick up just one tile, and that tile be the one with the red paint on the bottom. that is the odds of all of them happening in accordance together just by "chance". the prophesies all came true and pointed towards jesus. and there are still prophesies that are to be fullfilled.

*yawn* i'm tired i'm gonna take a nap. thanks for listenin' you guys. adios
 
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TwilightSoulKey said:
Do you really think that everything around us? the world, the universe every living thing so complicated yet so perfectly arranged, was just blown up into existence?

Why is that everytime some Bible-thumper tries to rebut the Big Bang theory that they bastardize it to the point where it has virtually nothing to do with the theory anymore? Is it simply because they don't understand any of it aside from there being some sort of explosion at some point?

The singularity that once was the universe did not just simply blow up and magically align itself. The universe is still expanding. It's not set. It also took billions of years for the matter to collect and form planets. It also took billions of "tries" to get a solar system like ours.

Must you Creationists always forget about the laws of probability? The universe is much larger than any of us can possibly fathom. Do you have the slightest idea as to how many "failed" tries there are out there? It doesn't matter how minute the chance is as long as you have a nigh-infinite amount of chances to get it right.

TwilightSoulKey said:
There is more proof around us than you think that the Bible is real. The Dead sea scrolls? The history in Jerusalem? I'm a Christian, but I'm just stating what i think. And the Bible does state that There is one god, one way. The trinity, the father, son, and holy spirit. all God.

How do any of those prove the Bible to be 100% true?
 

violent_anger

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fight the good fight, TSK

now then, there are two kinds of sins, mortal and venial, mortal is sinning on purpose, and is obviously worse, venial is sinning by accident, like eating a cookie and finding out you werent supposed to eat it(this is an example, dont go crazy) now animals cant tell between right and wrong, so all of their sins are less severe, so guess what happens? they go to heaven

there are many reasons why jesus is not in documents( bu i still think the romans wrote about him somewhere) mabey they were scared? ashamed? both? those that beleived in jesus thought they had killed the son of god, so they didnt want future people to know, therefor, they didnt write it down. the romans may have known jesus was important, and in the future, his followers would avenge jesus, so they dint write it down, and it doesnt end there, but ill stop explaining about that for now.

the exodus, the jews were slaves for a long long time, and then all of a sudden they were freed, work of god or coincidence? your going to say there was nothing in egypt about that, but apprently, the exodus was during the time of ramsees or however you spell it. now, i studied egpty last year(sixth grade) and i learned that ramsees never wrote down any of his failures, they loss a war, he destroys all accounts, a few people rebell, he gets rid of the records, he even put his name in the spots of other parohs. now, a person who didnt keep track fo his own failures wouldnt write about thousands and thousands of slaves all escaping at once, and nota bout a wall of water cuting right through the red sea crashing down on him. moses rant, over

now then, just what TSK said, how can science just automaticly create a world like this? how did nature just subconsously know to make trees this way, or flowers smell this way, or teach horses how to run? think of it like clocks, the gears run and fit perfectly, but the gears in a watch didnt evolve out of the pendulum in a grandfather clock, someone made it.

you ask why bad people arent getting zapped by lightning or hail storms. the wrold is liek this, you get rewarded once, and you get punished once. if you give money to charity, you can either be rewarded now, and everyone thinks your nice, or you can be rewarded later when you go to heaven. if you sin, you can either get killed ina rockslide now, or go to hell in the afterlife
 

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violent_anger said:
there are many reasons why jesus is not in documents( bu i still think the romans wrote about him somewhere) mabey they were scared? ashamed? both? those that beleived in jesus thought they had killed the son of god, so they didnt want future people to know, therefor, they didnt write it down. the romans may have known jesus was important, and in the future, his followers would avenge jesus, so they dint write it down, and it doesnt end there, but ill stop explaining about that for now.

The Roman Empire as a whole really had nothing to fear in Jesus. Why would they leave him out? Only the "local" government officials had a problem with Jesus, particularly Pontius Pilate. To the Romans, Jesus was just some hippy that was thorn in the side of some local official.

violent_anger said:
the exodus, the jews were slaves for a long long time, and then all of a sudden they were freed, work of god or coincidence? your going to say there was nothing in egypt about that, but apprently, the exodus was during the time of ramsees or however you spell it. now, i studied egpty last year(sixth grade) and i learned that ramsees never wrote down any of his failures, they loss a war, he destroys all accounts, a few people rebell, he gets rid of the records, he even put his name in the spots of other parohs. now, a person who didnt keep track fo his own failures wouldnt write about thousands and thousands of slaves all escaping at once, and nota bout a wall of water cuting right through the red sea crashing down on him. moses rant, over

I don't really doubt that the Hebrew slaves somehow got out of Egypt, but I'm not gullible enough to think that it was some form of divine intervention. The thing about Judeo-Christian history that you have to remember is that they had this silly idea that they were some "chosen" people, and God helped only them. Of course they're going to say God did it.

violent_anger said:
now then, just what TSK said, how can science just automaticly create a world like this? how did nature just subconsously know to make trees this way, or flowers smell this way, or teach horses how to run? think of it like clocks, the gears run and fit perfectly, but the gears in a watch didnt evolve out of the pendulum in a grandfather clock, someone made it.

The bastardization of yet another scientific theory...tell me, do you ever listen in science class, or do you live in Alabama? Evolution states that it took millions of years of adaptation and mutation to get to where we are now. The reason why everything seems to work so "perfectly" is because the adaptations that did not work died out, so they were not passed on. You're only looking at the success, and neglecting the many, many failures.

violent_anger said:
you ask why bad people arent getting zapped by lightning or hail storms. the wrold is liek this, you get rewarded once, and you get punished once. if you give money to charity, you can either be rewarded now, and everyone thinks your nice, or you can be rewarded later when you go to heaven. if you sin, you can either get killed ina rockslide now, or go to hell in the afterlife

What about those good people that get cancer? What's that about? Surely you can't tell me that's something a wholy benevolent God would allow.
 

violent_anger

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whose to say good people getting cancer is truly bad, for all we know if they dint get cancer , they would drink bleach someday or something, history doesnt just fit in like a puzzle, theres no way of telling if a good thing is truly good, or a bad thing is truly bad without alot of time travel. lets try this. assume you kill hitler, you stop the holocuast, good? for now yes, but mabey not int he future. the nazis tuaght the enitre world what can happen if you steryotype them, now adays, people dont act racist as much, cuase the nazis were racist, and that made them do evil things. and if hitler is killed before the holocuast, then it neverhappens, then 2000 years later, someone comes along and killed millions of jews? mabey one fo the people with cancer is the great great great great great great grandfather of another hitler? the only real good is trying to do good, all others might wind up being evil someday
 

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im beginning to like u TwilightSoulKey . . .


As for scientific arguements.... the best in my opinion would be the cosmological arguement. It is by-far the most senseable.Something worth mentioning-- we were studying evolution and, moreso, the beginning of the solar system and when we asked our science teacher why a solar nebula collapses and he said to us . . . "I don't know. But even with the mysteries surrounding it, I would think you should know the answer. After all, we've had that book for how many thousands of years?"

I believe even though we may be able to explain some of what the Bible tells us, we will likely never fully understand it. Nor should we use science as means of trying to. It does not work that way.

There are some really good quotes I've kept for a while that I think may be relevant to this in some way . . .

For those of you looking for science to say it's OK for you to turn to Christianity, look elsewhere. Science can only take you so far . . .


“The way to see by Faith is to shut the Eye of Reason.” – Benjamin Franklin (I LOVE this one!! I couldn't have said it better myself).

I also have a few from Albert Einstein similar to these. He made contributions to the theories for the beginnings of the solar system. So, coming from such a renowned intellectual, that is saying something . . .


btw, if this doesn't make sense, if i misspelled or if I ramble more than usual, it seems really late, so I apologise.


“God cannot give us happiness and peace apart from Himself, because it’s not there. There is no such thing.” – C. S. Lewis

^That may answer a few questions some people had. (I have an atheist friend who asked me something similar and I answered using this)


I love this one . . .

"Religions die when they are proved to be true. Science is a record of dead religions.” – Oscar Wilde

It almost made my stomach churn but . . . I knew it to be true in some degree.
 

violent_anger

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uh...never assume that a good thing is really good, or a bad thing is really bad, but try to do good things

edit: hey, those are cool, mainly the last one, its reminded my of the whole point of religion, beleive in what is not proved, faith

adn the eye of reason thing ios cool too

for the middle one, does it mean that happiness is to be with god, and being apart from god only makes you unhappy?
 

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violent_anger said:
whose to say good people getting cancer is truly bad, for all we know if they dint get cancer , they would drink bleach someday or something, history doesnt just fit in like a puzzle, theres no way of telling if a good thing is truly good, or a bad thing is truly bad without alot of time travel. lets try this. assume you kill hitler, you stop the holocuast, good? for now yes, but mabey not int he future. the nazis tuaght the enitre world what can happen if you steryotype them, now adays, people dont act racist as much, cuase the nazis were racist, and that made them do evil things. and if hitler is killed before the holocuast, then it neverhappens, then 2000 years later, someone comes along and killed millions of jews? mabey one fo the people with cancer is the great great great great great great grandfather of another hitler? the only real good is trying to do good, all others might wind up being evil someday

Don't feed me that "God has a plan" bullshit. Are you telling me that Hitler and the Holocost was a part of His plan? He allowed millions of his people to be slaughtered at the hands of some zealot for what, to teach us that racism is bad? Didn't we have enough evidence of that already? What kind of god would allow that? A big asshole, that's who would.

How can we know that getting cancer is truly bad? Gee, I don't know. It might have something to with your body destroying itself, constant pain, treatment that weakens your body, and losing your hair.
 

violent_anger

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Square Ninja said:
Don't feed me that "God has a plan" bullshit. Are you telling me that Hitler and the Holocost was a part of His plan? He allowed millions of his people to be slaughtered at the hands of some zealot for what, to teach us that racism is bad? Didn't we have enough evidence of that already? What kind of god would allow that? A big asshole, that's who would.
ok, let me ask you this, if you ahd a chance to, would you go back in time and kill hitler befroe the holocuast?
 
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