About the Drop Gauge...

[Chaser]

Why would it be important? A big theme of the game is "the hearts within Sora" and "the hearts within Xehanort." It's one of the wham lines of the trailer. Considering that Roxas and Xion inhabit Sora's heart, and considering that we've seen Vanitas, I don't think I'm being unreasonable.

Honestly, I don't think I've seen where it's said a big theme of the game are those two things. I've seen the Mark of Mastery, the Data inside Sora, and trust be the themes, but not those.
Vanitas, right now, is most likely to be in Xehanort's heart, if Grass is correct(Which he mostly is with his theories).

Well, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. Quoting Nomura here "Regarding character changes, he said that it will be easiest to understand if you think that there's something like a countdown event always taking place." Tetsuya Nomura Discusses Kingdom Hearts 3DS -- Andriasang.com

A countdown adds an element of excitement and urgency to gameplay. Now don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that chaotic gameplay is a BAD thing, in fact I think it'll be quite good. But please, don't try and say that the drop gauge won't be chaotic, because it will.

Yeah, and? Excitement and urgency can be available in those battles where you need to swap out and regain health.


And how do you know the Drop Gauge will be chaotic anyway? We've not seen how it actually works, and from the descriptions we've gotten it seems like it's not chaotic.

 

[Ronove]

Honestly, I don't think I've seen where it's said a big theme of the game are those two things. I've seen the Mark of Mastery, the Data inside Sora, and trust be the themes, but not those.
Vanitas, right now, is most likely to be in Xehanort's heart, if Grass is correct(Which he mostly is with his theories).

That's not the point, though. Remember what Vanitas and Xehanort say? "We know about the hearts inside you?" The hearts inside of Sora is a theme of the game.

Yeah, and? Excitement and urgency can be available in those battles where you need to swap out and regain health.


And how do you know the Drop Gauge will be chaotic anyway? We've not seen how it actually works, and from the descriptions we've gotten it seems like it's not chaotic.

Well this is just getting semantical. I view urgent exciting situations as chaotic. If that doesn't fit your definition of chaotic then fair enough.

 

[Chaser]

That's not the point, though. Remember what Vanitas and Xehanort say? "We know about the hearts inside you?" The hearts inside of Sora is a theme of the game.

Just because one character says that doesn't make it a theme of the game :|

Well this is just getting semantical. I view urgent exciting situations as chaotic. If that doesn't fit your definition of chaotic then fair enough.

My definition of chaotic would be if everything was out of your control. Sora was flipping himself from place to place, then immediately changed to Riku, who then immediately swapped back to Sora and Sora dies and there was no button to press or action to do during that whole time.
Now THAT would be chaotic.

 

[Ronove]

Just because one character says that doesn't make it a theme of the game :|

Come now, don't write it off as easily as that. Unless the trailer was meant to be deliberately misleading, I think we should consider Vanitas's quote. His line wasn't put at the end of the trailer just for bonks and giggles, it was meant to have impact and set a tone for the story.

 

[Chaser]

Come now, don't write it off as easily as that. Unless the trailer was meant to be deliberately misleading, I think we should consider Vanitas's quote. His line wasn't put at the end of the trailer just for bonks and giggles, it was meant to have impact and set a tone for the story.

His line is probably important, but it doesn't warrant a "theme", not yet at least.And it wouldn't be the first time a S-E trailer was deliberately misleading. They do it a lot.

 

[Ronove]

Well this is speculation, of course. It's not fact in the slightest. I'm not saying that my theory is definitely going to happen, but I do think there's enough data and foreshadowing to justify the possible appearance and playability of characters like Xion, Ventus, Roxas et al in the game.

 

[Chaser]

Well this is speculation, of course. It's not fact in the slightest. I'm not saying that my theory is definitely going to happen, but I do think there's enough data and foreshadowing to justify the possible appearance and playability of characters like Xion, Ventus, Roxas et al in the game.

And what "data and foreshadowing" is there for the playability of those characters OTHER than their "hearts" being inside of Sora?

BTW, Xion and Roxas don't have hearts of their own.

 

[Ronove]

And what "data and foreshadowing" is there for the playability of those characters OTHER than their "hearts" being inside of Sora?

BTW, Xion and Roxas don't have hearts of their own.

Well, I don't know about that just yet... But fine, let's assume you're completely correct. There's still Ventus. And I think a heart being inside of Sora is good enough justification.

Remember anti-form? Nomura said that was the manifestation of the darkness in Sora's heart. If a bit of darkness could manifest itself in gameplay, then it isn't unreasonable to think that someone else's heart could manifest itself.

And as for Xion and Roxas, while they may not have their own heart, they do have their own mind and emotions. Both of which are powerful enough forces in the KHverse. It's also not unreasonable to think that two once-sentient entities residing in Sora will affect gameplay.

 

[Chaser]

Well, I don't know about that just yet... But fine, let's assume you're completely correct. There's still Ventus. And I think a heart being inside of Sora is good enough justification.

Ventus, whose body is in a coma in a castle where there is only one person who can access it(so far).

Remember anti-form? Nomura said that was the manifestation of the darkness in Sora's heart. If a bit of darkness could manifest itself in gameplay, then it isn't unreasonable to think that someone else's heart could manifest itself.

Anti-form was a fun little gimmick to counter-act the over-powerful forms.

And as for Xion and Roxas, while they may not have their own heart, they do have their own mind and emotions. Both of which are powerful enough forces in the KHverse. It's also not unreasonable to think that two once-sentient entities residing in Sora will affect gameplay.

So far, the only way they've effected Gameplay was with Duel wielding, and I actually think that was from Ventus, not those two.

 

[Ronove]

Ventus, whose body is in a coma in a castle where there is only one person who can access it(so far).


Anti-form was a fun little gimmick to counter-act the over-powerful forms.

His body, yes. His heart is in Sora. I never said that his body was in Sora, did I? And I don't care what you think Anti-form was for, Nomura said it manifested itself due to the darkness in Sora's heart.

So far, the only way they've effected Gameplay was with Duel wielding, and I actually think that was from Ventus, not those two.

Splitting hairs, and incorrect. Darkness has affected gameplay, and Ventus/Roxas/Xion, take your pick, have affected gameplay. There's already two precedents for my argument.

 

[Chaser]

His body, yes. His heart is in Sora. I never said that his body was in Sora, did I? And I don't care what you think Anti-form was for, Nomura said it manifested itself due to the darkness in Sora's heart.

To give it a reason to be there. That man pulls shit out of his arse at every opportunity.
And since his body is sleeping and not with Sora, play as it is entirely IMPOSSIBLE unless it was in a non-canon multiplayer scenario, ala Days.

Splitting hairs, and incorrect. Darkness has affected gameplay, and Ventus/Roxas/Xion, take your pick, have affected gameplay. There's already two precedents for my argument.

I'm not denying Ventus having affected gameplay, but how has Roxas and or Xion done it? You keep saying this stuff, then you claim "I don't know about that just yet"

 

[Ronove]

To give it a reason to be there. That man pulls shit out of his arse at every opportunity.
And since his body is sleeping and not with Sora, play as it is entirely IMPOSSIBLE unless it was in a non-canon multiplayer scenario, ala Days.

It's not impossible. It's set in a dream world. Sora's a freaking young kid in the game. Xemnas and Ansem Seeker of Darkness are walking around. The laws of physics obviously not apply in Dream Drop Distance. And even if we IGNORE the fact that Sora is young again and that he's in a DREAM world, we've seen that hearts by themselves can affect physical appearance; like Vanitas for example. And also, if you're going to dismiss the creator of the series out of hand I can't argue with you, because each bit of evidence I bring doesn't mean jack if you'll just say "Oh he was bullshitting."

I'm not denying Ventus having affected gameplay, but how has Roxas and or Xion done it? You keep saying this stuff, then you claim "

I'll be more clear. I can't "prove" that Sora will be swapping out with anyone besides Riku, because the game isn't out yet. I can provide evidence and precendents that point towards the possibility.

But to sum it up -

1 -Dream Drop Distance takes place in a Dream World where things not possible in the realm of light are indeed possible.

2- Hearts, memories, and will have a definite effect in Kingdom Hearts. Sora has at least one other heart in him, and he has two additional minds and bodies in him to boot.

3- A bit of darkness in Sora's heart was enough for his form to change. Therefore three other beings having an effect on his form is more than possible, especially in a dream world that already has shown it's capacity for changing his form (to that of his young self)

With those points in mind, thinking that the drop gauge may invoke other characters is not all that ridiculous.

 

[Chaser]

It's not impossible. It's set in a dream world. Sora's a freaking young kid in the game. Xemnas and Ansem Seeker of Darkness are walking around. The laws of physics obviously not apply in Dream Drop Distance. And even if we IGNORE the fact that Sora is young again and that he's in a DREAM world, we've seen that hearts by themselves can affect physical appearance; like Vanitas for example. And also, if you're going to dismiss the creator of the series out of hand I can't argue with you, because each bit of evidence I bring doesn't mean jack if you'll just say "Oh he was bullshitting."



I'll be more clear. I can't "prove" that Sora will be swapping out with anyone besides Riku, because the game isn't out yet. I can provide evidence and precendents that point towards the possibility.

But to sum it up -

1 -Dream Drop Distance takes place in a Dream World where things not possible in the realm of light are indeed possible.

2- Hearts, memories, and will have a definite effect in Kingdom Hearts. Sora has at least one other heart in him, and he has two additional minds and bodies in him to boot.

3- A bit of darkness in Sora's heart was enough for his form to change. Therefore three other beings having an effect on his form is more than possible, especially in a dream world that already has shown it's capacity for changing his form (to that of his young self)

With those points in mind, thinking that the drop gauge may invoke other characters is not all that ridiculous.

lol shit you got me. you win, have an award.

Honestly, I've grown bored of this discussion. It was nice, thank you. I might return when I can be bothered, but right now, I don't care as much as I did before.

 

[alexis.anagram]

Not to mention if we could randomly turn into King Mickey in KH2, I don't think Nomura would have a problem with this kind of trickery.

I don't necessarily think it's going to happen, but there's no reason it couldn't. Although, personally, I think it would be pretty cool if it only occurred at a certain point in the story, like during the final boss battle for this game; all of the pieces of Sora's heart are contributing to the fight, so you switch between Roxas and Ven and Xion and Sora. That would be kind of great, in my opinion.

I prefer this method than dying 5 times, leveling up to an insane level and then breezing through the rest of the game.

Right. This way, you can just skip the dying 5 times part and go straight ahead to leveling up and playing through the rest of the game completely unhindered.

 

[kupo1121]

It's not impossible. It's set in a dream world. Sora's a freaking young kid in the game. Xemnas and Ansem Seeker of Darkness are walking around. The laws of physics obviously not apply in Dream Drop Distance. And even if we IGNORE the fact that Sora is young again and that he's in a DREAM world, we've seen that hearts by themselves can affect physical appearance; like Vanitas for example. And also, if you're going to dismiss the creator of the series out of hand I can't argue with you, because each bit of evidence I bring doesn't mean jack if you'll just say "Oh he was bullshitting."



I'll be more clear. I can't "prove" that Sora will be swapping out with anyone besides Riku, because the game isn't out yet. I can provide evidence and precendents that point towards the possibility.

But to sum it up -

1 -Dream Drop Distance takes place in a Dream World where things not possible in the realm of light are indeed possible.

2- Hearts, memories, and will have a definite effect in Kingdom Hearts. Sora has at least one other heart in him, and he has two additional minds and bodies in him to boot.

3- A bit of darkness in Sora's heart was enough for his form to change. Therefore three other beings having an effect on his form is more than possible, especially in a dream world that already has shown it's capacity for changing his form (to that of his young self)

With those points in mind, thinking that the drop gauge may invoke other characters is not all that ridiculous.

1- You are right, it is a dream world. Thus, I think it is also very likely that Aqua will be here with a daughter we never knew about, and Kairi will be the final boss because she will have a keyblade and be able destroy you with a flick of her finger because she is going to be in a mecha-Gundam suit. I mean, it is a dream...so this is highly plausible...right?

2- Yes, hearts and memories have always played a large point in the KH series...I don't see your point? Kairi's heart was in Sora in KH1...did that affect him to the point that it changed gameplay...to this day, I don't believe it has.

3- His anti-form in KH2 was enough to change him ONLY because he still had darkness in his heart AND because he changed into a Shadow in KH1. Nomura has confirmed in Famitsu that his anti-form ability is due to his time as a Shadow in KH1. So unless he changed into Ventus, Xion, or Roxas at any point in time (which he did not), I do not think it matters how strong of a heart is inside him.

Also, about your point in the trailers that the last line is a theme:

[video=youtube;1OKj1uxcXuw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OKj1uxcXuw[/video]

The last line is: "And his name is..." even if you completed the sentence and said "And his name is Sora" I don't see how that was a theme, because I was sure Sora's name wasn't all that important <_<

 

[Ronove]

I was talking about the Dream Drop Distance trailer, not the Birth By Sleep trailer. The last line in the DDD trailer is indeed hearts other than your own.

Kingdom Hearts 3D Dream Drop Distance Trailer (ENGLISH SUBTITLES, Jump Festa 2012, HD 720p) - YouTube

EDIT: Oh, and while I'm at it, I'll refute your counterpoints.

1. You're just using hyperbole here. Aqua having a daughter out of nowhere is nowhere near the same thing as beings who are beyond a shadow of a doubt inside of Sora manifesting themselves.

2. It did affect what Sora saw. He saw visions, illusions, hell he didn't let Rikunort kill him because Kairi's voice called out to him. Having someone else's heart in you can affect you in different ways.

3. I'm saying that there's precedents for my theory, and it would not come out of nowhere, like a mecha gundam suit.

 

[kupo1121]

I was talking about the Dream Drop Distance trailer, not the Birth By Sleep trailer. The last line in the DDD trailer is indeed hearts other than your own.

Kingdom Hearts 3D Dream Drop Distance Trailer (ENGLISH SUBTITLES, Jump Festa 2012, HD 720p) - YouTube

EDIT: Oh, and while I'm at it, I'll refute your counterpoints.

1. You're just using hyperbole here. Aqua having a daughter out of nowhere is nowhere near the same thing as beings who are beyond a shadow of a doubt inside of Sora manifesting themselves.

2. It did affect what Sora saw. He saw visions, illusions, hell he didn't let Rikunort kill him because Kairi's voice called out to him. Having someone else's heart in you can affect you in different ways.

3. I'm saying that there's precedents for my theory, and it would not come out of nowhere, like a mecha gundam suit.

For the trailer though...I'm just showing you that just because it is the last line in a trailer, that the line doesn't have to be a theme as you were stating earlier about "hearts other than your own" being a theme only based on the precedent that it was the last line.

As to your points:

1- Yes I am using a hyperbole, but as you stated the Dream World is a place "where things not possible in the realm of light are indeed possible." Now I know what I am saying was a bit far-fetched, but still, just because it is a Dream World is not a good supporting argument because it makes everything imaginable possible, so it makes everything possible more likely so it doesn't really support you but also supports things against you.

2- I stated "gameplay." I am well aware he saw illusions of her. However, you are talking about playing as Roxas or Xion, which affects gameplay. It is much more likely for Sora to see Roxas or Xion as illusions in the RoS, than it is to play as them randomly. So thank you for supporting my argument there lol xP that hearts inside Sora will have a great impact on his perceptions than they will gameplay and how he actually fights.

3- Also...my gundam suit didn't come out of nowhere. Lets just say that Kairi somehow stumbled upon Marluxia's big second form suit and she is using it...how about that? -__- There is a precedent since we do not know what Kairi will do in DDD, for all we know she may just be able to gain access to that suit.

 

[Zephyr]

3- Also...my gundam suit didn't come out of nowhere. Lets just say that Kairi somehow stumbled upon Marluxia's big second form suit and she is using it...how about that? -__- There is a precedent since we do not know what Kairi will do in DDD, for all we know she may just be able to gain access to that suit.

Sounds pretty plausible to me. I mean Square Enix seems to be about making a character like Serah actually fighting now. I made this a while ago and she might look something as close as this.

 

[Sign]

That's a gorgeous design, zephyr *v*

 

[Ronove]

For the trailer though...I'm just showing you that just because it is the last line in a trailer, that the line doesn't have to be a theme as you were stating earlier about "hearts other than your own" being a theme only based on the precedent that it was the last line.

Well, I don't really see how your argument would hold up. "And his name is Sora" would be a VERY important line, the ending of Birth By Sleep is a long drawn out montage of how Sora is going to save everyone. That's where the title comes from, Ansem the Wise tells Aqua that people are waiting for their "Birth By Sleep" and that Sora is Jesus. So even with the BBS trailer you're wrong.

As to your points:

1- Yes I am using a hyperbole, but as you stated the Dream World is a place "where things not possible in the realm of light are indeed possible." Now I know what I am saying was a bit far-fetched, but still, just because it is a Dream World is not a good supporting argument because it makes everything imaginable possible, so it makes everything possible more likely so it doesn't really support you but also supports things against you.

That's a dumb argument. There's a difference between a complete asspull and something with foreshadowing behind it. The argument against me was along the lines of "well Sora may have Xion and Roxas in him, but he can't change forms in reality." My argument was that in DDD he has ALREADY SHOWN the ability to shift forms, given that he's a child in the dream world.

2- I stated "gameplay." I am well aware he saw illusions of her. However, you are talking about playing as Roxas or Xion, which affects gameplay. It is much more likely for Sora to see Roxas or Xion as illusions in the RoS, than it is to play as them randomly. So thank you for supporting my argument there lol xP that hearts inside Sora will have a great impact on his perceptions than they will gameplay and how he actually fights.

I'm not supporting your argument there, lawl, exs pee. While he may indeed see them as visions, he also might shift into them, given that already his form is shifted in the Dream World. Think about it for a second, why is it so ridiculous to say that Sora's form will shift in the Dream World when it -ALREADY- has shifted?

3- Also...my gundam suit didn't come out of nowhere. Lets just say that Kairi somehow stumbled upon Marluxia's big second form suit and she is using it...how about that? -__- There is a precedent since we do not know what Kairi will do in DDD, for all we know she may just be able to gain access to that suit.

There's a difference between "armor" and a gundam suit.