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Why didn't Riku use his own keyblade vs Roxas?



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DarknessInZero

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He sued his keyblade against Xion in days but at the end he was talking about how it may be suicidal to go against Roxas. Well yeah without using a keyblade it would be hard to win. So why didn't he?
 

Ruran

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Also, consistency. They're conceptual, but regardless they tried to have the secret ending fit into the games as much as possible. The reason why Roxas even threw Oblivion to Riku in the first place was because Xion apparently made him, and Riku didn't have his own Keyblade at the time anyway.
 

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If I remember correctly, the fight between Riku and Roxas wasn't purely between the two. Xion intervened at one point, pleading for Riku to stop Roxas for fear that if he pressed on, he would have been lost big time. If this is something to go by, Roxas passing his Keyblade to Riku could have also been attributed to Xion and her intervention, which is probably how Ruran came to that assumption.
 

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I'm confident it's in an Ultimania interview somewhere.

Also, MS is correct, Riku's Keyblade didn't materialize until KH II. (Semantically speaking, his Keyblade and the Soul Eater are the same weapon)

Edit: Again, my memory and the Ultimania seldom let me down:
-- When Roxas tries to do what Xion has asked of him, Riku hears Xion's voice asking him to stop Roxas. Why?
Nomura: First he have to look at things in order. First, the reason why Roxas throws a keyblade to Riku, and we then see a vision of Xion, is that there is a small remaining part of Xion in Roxas that wants to stop him, and makes him take those actions. The name of the keyblade that is given to Riku suggests that it has something to do with Xion. Xion wants Roxas to set Kingdom Hearts free, but doesn't want him to face Xemnas right now. She sees that he would most likely lose. So she begs Riku to stop him.
 
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Ruran

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I never knew she forced his hand. That would make sense. Was this mentioned in the novels?
I know very little about the Days novels, but if I recall correctly (this was some time ago) Nomura explained that Roxas throwing Oblivion up to Riku was Xion's doing in order to communicate with him through the Keyblade.
 

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(Semantically speaking, his Keyblade and the Soul Eater are the same weapon)
Not exactly. I mean, it is the medium Riku used to call upon his Keyblade, but he can still use Soul Eater as shown in KH3D when he calls upon it while voicing his doubts over being worthy of the Keyblade.

---We found out that Riku's Keyblade's name is "Way to the Dawn" when examining his item slots after he joined your party. Is that Keyblade a transfigured version of Soul Eater?
Nomura: I designed it with that image. Since Riku has always been using Soul Eater, he still calls it that even after it changed form. Keyblades aren't something that you can obtain suddenly out of nowhere so in Riku's case, his Soul Eater was used as an intermediary for that Keyblade.

Kingdom Hearts II Scenario Mysteries - News - Kingdom Hearts Insider
It merely serves as an intermediary, not exactly the weapon itself. Similar to how Lea probably kept calling on his chakrams instead of his Keyblade until he just did it at the end of KH3D
 

G-SANtos

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Not exactly. I mean, it is the medium Riku used to call upon his Keyblade, but he can still use Soul Eater as shown in KH3D when he calls upon it while voicing his doubts over being worthy of the Keyblade.

It merely serves as an intermediary, not exactly the weapon itself. Similar to how Lea probably kept calling on his chakrams instead of his Keyblade until he just did it at the end of KH3D
Lea said he had trouble trying to summon his Keyblade, so that's why he used his chakrams.

Also, technically the Soul Eater and Riku's Keyblade are the same thing, just in different forms. In fact, the Soul Eater is a Keyblade according to Mobile and Days: Mobile calls it a Keyblade, and no other source calls it "not a Keyblade", and in Days the Soul Eater releases pink hearts from Heartless, something that is explicitly said only a Keyblade can do.
 

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Also, technically the Soul Eater and Riku's Keyblade are the same thing, just in different forms. In fact, the Soul Eater is a Keyblade according to Mobile and Days: Mobile calls it a Keyblade, and no other source calls it "not a Keyblade", and in Days the Soul Eater releases pink hearts from Heartless, something that is explicitly said only a Keyblade can do.
I'm afraid your a bit misinformed on the matter. Mobile isn't canon to the series so whatever it lists, that is in contradiction to the main games, is false.
Days never calls it a keyblade, in fact it refers to it as a "sword swimming in darkness".

EVERY weapon releases hearts when a heartless is defeated. You see this countless times whenever Donald, Goofy, Riku or even Leon and gang in kh2 defeat a heartless. (something best seen during the 1000 heartless battle scenes with Leon and co.)

I'd watch through days again if I were you because Marluxia explains in detail to roxas how defeating heartless with any weapon releases the hearts but it doesn't free them, they simply reform as heartless else where.
What the keyblade really does is frees the hearts permanently. It keeps them from reforming as heartless after the heartless is destroyed.

Also, since we're talking about it, Marluxia also points out how only the emblem heartless release hearts in days. The pureblood heartless, those that lack emblems on them, dont release anything because when they devour a heart they literally do so. There's nothing to be freed from them.

All of this is explained in the best of detail on the DS version during the Roxas-Marluxia mission.

Plus, honestly, it's impossible to call the soul eater and way to dawn the same thing when nomura himself doesn't. The way to dawn used soul eaters look as a basis but they arent physically the same item.
 
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Also, technically the Soul Eater and Riku's Keyblade are the same thing, just in different forms. In fact, the Soul Eater is a Keyblade according to Mobile and Days: Mobile calls it a Keyblade, and no other source calls it "not a Keyblade", and in Days the Soul Eater releases pink hearts from Heartless, something that is explicitly said only a Keyblade can do.
They aren't the same thing, for reasons already specified by Spock and Anagram in their posts above. The Soul Eater serves as a precursor of, and is not, the Way to the Dawn; they are two separate objects.

In addition, while not every Keyblade has key chains (dead Keyblades in the Graveyard don't), they all have a loop on the base of their hilt to attach a key chain to. If you look harder, the Soul Eater doesn't even have that loop, so it can't possibly be a Keyblade.
 

G-SANtos

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I'm afraid your a bit misinformed on the matter. Mobile isn't canon to the series so whatever it lists, that is in contradiction to the main games, is false.
Days never calls it a keyblade, in fact it refers to it as a "sword swimming in darkness".
First, there's no source in the main series that calls it "not a Keyblade". Second, a Keyblade is technically a type of sword.

EVERY weapon releases hearts when a heartless is defeated. You see this countless times whenever Donald, Goofy, Riku or even Leon and gang in kh2 defeat a heartless. (something best seen during the 1000 heartless battle scenes with Leon and co.)
Actually, I've heard someone saying that if you pay close attention, Donald and Goofy don't release hearts when defeating Heartless in KH2.

I'd watch through days again if I were you because Marluxia explains in detail to roxas how defeating heartless with any weapon releases the hearts but it doesn't free them, they simply reform as heartless else where.
What the keyblade really does is frees the hearts permanently. It keeps them from reforming as heartless after the heartless is destroyed.
And anyways, Days depicts the difference between a non-freed heart and a freed heart by having any Heartless defeated by a non-Keyblade as a gray heart.

Also, since we're talking about it, Marluxia also points out how only the emblem heartless release hearts in days. The pureblood heartless, those that lack emblems on them, dont release anything because when they devour a heart they literally do so. There's nothing to be freed from them.
Yes, I know only one type of Heartless releases hearts, I just didn't especify because I forgot which it was.

They aren't the same thing, for reasons already specified by Spock and Anagram in their posts above. The Soul Eater serves as a precursor of, and is not, the Way to the Dawn; they are two separate objects.
I forgot what I had in mind when I wrote that post, but I think it was something about the Way to the Dawn and the Soul Eater being two forms of the same thing, since the former used the latter to manifest itself.

In addition, while not every Keyblade has key chains (dead Keyblades in the Graveyard don't), they all have a loop on the base of their hilt to attach a key chain to. If you look harder, the Soul Eater doesn't even have that loop, so it can't possibly be a Keyblade.
The Keyblade of People's Hearts doesn't have the loop and is explicitly a Keyblade.

The Way to the Dawn used the Soul Eater to manifest itself, and the latter is called a Keyblade by an officially published source. Therefore, it's a Keyblade. An incomplete one, but still a Keyblade. An incomplete wall is not a non-wall just because it's incomplete.
There are more details here, where there's a full discussion on whether or not it's a Keyblade.
 

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First, there's no source in the main series that calls it "not a Keyblade". Second, a Keyblade is technically a type of sword.
You're arguing semantics. A Keyblade is a sword but a sword is not a Keyblade. They are intrinsically different because of the Keyblade's nature as a whole. Soul Eater is not a Keyblade because it does not unlock hearts, release hearts, free hearts, unlock doors or keyholes. It is just a sword.

Actually, I've heard someone saying that if you pay close attention, Donald and Goofy don't release hearts when defeating Heartless in KH2.
I'm too lazy to look up videos for photo proof that they do (it is rare that they show SDG defeat any normal heartless on-screen since you play as them), but that doesn't change the fact that people like Leon & Cloud are shown releasing hearts when defeating Heartless. Would you like to argue that their weapons are Keyblades as well?

I forgot what I had in mind when I wrote that post, but I think it was something about the Way to the Dawn and the Soul Eater being two forms of the same thing, since the former used the latter to manifest itself.
It wouldn't make sense for that to be possible. If Riku were to lose his Keyblade or give it to another willingly, he'd still be able to use Soul Eater while his Keyblade is out.

The Keyblade of People's Hearts doesn't have the loop and is explicitly a Keyblade.
It also isn't a normal Keyblade. The loop really doesn't matter, though.

The Way to the Dawn used the Soul Eater to manifest itself, and the latter is called a Keyblade by an officially published source. Therefore, it's a Keyblade. An incomplete one, but still a Keyblade. An incomplete wall is not a non-wall just because it's incomplete.
There are more details here, where there's a full discussion on whether or not it's a Keyblade.
What is this officially published source? Mobile is not a source. The service doesn't even exist anymore.

It is not a Keyblade. It is a sword made of Darkness that just so happened to be the intermediary for Riku's Keyblade when he earned it a some point during KH2.

Maleficent gave Riku Soul Eater. Where do you think she got her hands on an "incomplete Keyblade"?
 

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First, there's no source in the main series that calls it "not a Keyblade". Second, a Keyblade is technically a type of sword.
It also doesn't say that the soul eater IS a keyblade either. In fact every game the soul eater is featured in it is referred too as a sword.

This isn't even arguing semantics. Yes the keyblade can be used LIKE a sword but it can also be used like a wand to channel magic and it can even change into other forms and be used as a cannon or blaster guns, hell you can even turn it into a vehicle and use them as transport.

And, staying true to the name, they also serve as keys allowing one to open gateways to other worlds, seal any door/lock, they also free capture hearts and they even have power over normal door and chest locks. They are the ultimate master key.

To consider the keyblade as just a key-shaped sword is to ignore all the other functions it possesses. The keyblade is many things, not JUST a sword.

Whereas the soul is just that, a basic sword. It has none of the powers, abilities or functions the keyblade possess'.
Nor is the soul eater a "incomplete" keyblade. Keyblades manifest before their wielders, they dont exist in any physical state until they first appear to their wielder, which we learned in the DDD glossary:
Dream Drop Distance Glossary said:
A key-shaped weapon forged by man during the age of fairy tales. Any other origins have yet to be revealed.

All Keyblades have one of three natures: light, darkness, or heart. These last two are exceptional; most documented Keyblades, including Sora's and Riku's, are Keyblades of light.

The heart must be proven before a Keyblade will appear in its master's hand.No lock can withstand a Keyblade, nor can any non-agent of light.

Special Keychains allow the Keyblade's appearance and performance to be altered.

The keyblade of heart in kh1 was a special type of keyblade forged from the hearts of the PoH. It doesn't have a chosen wielder nor does it appear like basic keyblades do because it was forcibly made by the capturing of hearts.


Actually, I've heard someone saying that if you pay close attention, Donald and Goofy don't release hearts when defeating Heartless in KH2.
What you heard doesnt really change the fact all weapons free hearts as shown here:




Just in case the vids aren't working right here's the links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqSwGM1qvnA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkvEZKaeoPE


And anyways, Days depicts the difference between a non-freed heart and a freed heart by having any Heartless defeated by a non-Keyblade as a gray heart.
This only helps my case not yours. By showing that EVERY weapon frees a heart, it's just that the keyblade makes sure it doesn't reform as a heartless later.


T
There are more details here, where there's a full discussion on whether or not it's a Keyblade.
And that link is in no way a viable source of information. Unless it comes from the mouth of nomura himself or the games it is not a viable, reliable, or even remotely useable source of information.

The only viable sources of information are nomura and the games as they are the main sources of all information in this series.

And unless you can find something IN THOSE sources to back your claims your not gonna be taken seriously and only meet with the resistance you've been shown because nobody will accept it as truth.

The link you posted is neither of those things and on top of that it's from a wikia which is an entirely USER EDITED fan site.
Which means it's as unreliable as the thousands people that edit the place.
 
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First, there's no source in the main series that calls it "not a Keyblade". Second, a Keyblade is technically a type of sword.
Not everything has to be explicitly stated for things to be true. We should never expect to always be spoonfed with information, thus we will need to make use of gift of thought to perform analyses, connect the dots, and arrive at conclusions. It's no different in this case.

In addition, that there's no source that calls it "not a Keyblade" isn't really a substantiated claim to support your cause on its own. I can even say that it's a flawed reasoning. Going by that, I could also say that everyone in the series are dead since it has never been said that they are not. Or rather, more relevantly to the topic, I could also say that Leon's gunblade, Cloud's sword, Goofy's shield, Donald's staff, and the Organization members' weapons are all Keyblades because it has never been said that they are not Keyblades, but we know that it isn't true.

The Keyblade-sword relationship doesn't work both ways. A Keyblade is a sword indeed, but not all swords are Keyblades. Therefore, you can't say that non-Keyblade swords are Keyblades, the way you can't say non-canid animals are canids or non-strawberry fruits are strawberries. It simply isn't that black-and-white.

I forgot what I had in mind when I wrote that post, but I think it was something about the Way to the Dawn and the Soul Eater being two forms of the same thing, since the former used the latter to manifest itself.

The Keyblade of People's Hearts doesn't have the loop and is explicitly a Keyblade.

The Way to the Dawn used the Soul Eater to manifest itself, and the latter is called a Keyblade by an officially published source. Therefore, it's a Keyblade. An incomplete one, but still a Keyblade. An incomplete wall is not a non-wall just because it's incomplete.
There are more details here, where there's a full discussion on whether or not it's a Keyblade.
Except the Soul Eater is not even an incomplete Keyblade. I understand it's tempting to think that the it is a Keyblade since it is used as the design basis of the Way to the Dawn, but being an object that the Way to the Dawn was derived from doesn't necessarily mean that the Soul Eater a Keyblade itself.

For example, consider Lea's Keyblade. It was derived from his chakrams, but would you say that his chakrams are a Keyblade?

And what's in that link doesn't really look like a discussion to me. It looks like a one-man war in which this particular person tried to force his or her belief to others.
 
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KrytenKoro

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Just making a few quick notes here:

Nor is the soul eater a "incomplete" keyblade. Keyblades manifest before their wielders, they dont exist in any physical state until they first appear to their wielder, which we learned in the DDD glossary:
Keyblades aren't something that you can obtain suddenly out of nowhere so in Riku's case, his Soul Eater was used as an intermediary for that Keyblade.
The Ultimania states pretty explicitly that the Soul Eater is the vessel for Riku's keyblade, and Nomura says pretty clearly that Keyblades "don't appear out of nowhere". The implication of that is very clearly "the Soul Eater was turning into the Way to the Dawn" -- anything other than a gradual manifestation would be the "suddenly, out of nowhere" that Nomura specifically says doesn't happen.

If you'd like, I can provide you the original Japanese quote and expound on the connotations of the words used, but as I'm not planning on watching this thread, you'd have to get G to contact me for it.

The heart must be proven before a Keyblade will appear in its master's hand.
I'm honestly astounded that you got that they "don't physically exist" from this line. All it's saying is that the Keyblade won't present itself to the wielder's -hand- until they're ready, like Arthur and the Sword from the Stone. We actually have several instances of Keyblades being "delivered to their Masters" (including the very first one we see in the series!), so...this is just a bewildering claim to make.

As far as the discussion of canonicity -- without an explicit statement that something should be considered non-canon, as with the Star Wars series, it's really, really pointless to start claiming "well, this sidequest is canon, this one isn't." It becomes completely arbitrary at that point, and turns into an argument between personal, arbitrary standards, rather than anything objective that could actually be agreed on.

Except the Soul Eater is not even an incomplete Keyblade. I understand it's tempting to think that the it is a Keyblade since it is used as the design basis of the Way to the Dawn, but being an object that the Way to the Dawn was derived from doesn't necessarily mean that the Soul Eater a Keyblade itself.

For example, consider Lea's Keyblade. It was derived from his chakrams, but would you say that his chakrams are a Keyblade?
G-SANtos is referencing an explicit statement from Nomura that the Soul Eater was used as the Way to the Dawn's intermediary; he's not talking about vague "aesthetic similarity".

Whereas the soul is just that, a basic sword. It has none of the powers, abilities or functions the keyblade possess'.
This only helps my case not yours. By showing that EVERY weapon frees a heart, it's just that the keyblade makes sure it doesn't reform as a heartless later.
This is rather false. Regardless of whether KHII played it consistently, the Soul Eater possesses the pink-hearts power that Days explicitly states is unique to Keyblades. Whether you consider that a programming oversight or not is up to you, but it is still depicted as happening.

Honestly, I'd recommend that you guys agree to disagree and say that the series isn't consistent enough to make a definite decision, because we have both very clear quotes from Nomura, and apparent violations of those rules from certain cutscenes. If push comes to shove, I'd pick the quotes from Nomura, but to each his own.
 

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But how did riku get soul eater.Did maleficent give it to him?But hen again why did it morph into way to the dawn if it was given to him by some1 else and why is he the only character to have an intermediary form of a keyblade?
 
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