What's your opinion about Sora x Kairi?

[Divine Past]

FWIW, they already showed how that can work when Roxas had to help Xion become a better keyblade wielder in days. That at least shows they have done it in the past but in a much smaller scale of importance.

 

[MegaWallflower]

Except it'd be hard to have a situation where Riku wouldn't completely overshadow everything Kairi does.

Boss fight? Riku would be the one doing the most damage, having the strongest spells, all the cool moves he's accumulated so far while Kairi was mastering basic combos.

Talking to other characters? Who do you think they're going to want to talk to? The girl who is still learning to swing her weapon or the experienced, knowledgeable, powerful Keyblade Master who can sling a dozen dark firagas around at once?

Again, Kairi didn't get to have a place in Sora or Riku's character arc, they dont get to have a place in hers. Plus we already know that Riku and Mickey are going to find the Lost Masters.

At least with Lea, he'd have practical experience in combat, but be on Kairi's level as far as fumbling along with learning about the keyblade goes. Their interactions would be fresh, new ground. Their less than pleasant past encounters and Lea's potential status as a loose canon would make for excellent conflict and drama. Kairi - as you've pointed out - has serious catching up to do if she's going to stand on her own in the final battle. The best way for her to make up that ground as quickly as possible is to throw her into the deep end and watch her struggle and rise to the challenge.

Kairi needs to expand her relationships beyond just Sora and Riku. While I agree that her relationship with Riku needs some serious attention, that can happen in the later parts of the game, when its likely that different storylines will converge as everyone gathers for the final battle. It would be more interesting, tbh, for Sora and Riku to have to adjust to the idea of Kairi being a competent fighter on her own terms. It shakes up the dynamic that's been persistent since KH1, and would allow for focus on her friendship with both boys because now everything's different.



Sora and Riku learned by getting out into the worlds and whacking heartless. Let Kairi cut her teeth the same way while she has her own adventure.

They probably would write Riku in a way that overshadows Kairi, but Lea's the fan favorite --I'm sure he would do the same, if not moreso, unless Pluto came along.

Yen Sid's way of training certainly does seem to be "throwing people into the deep end and watch her struggle and rise to the challenge," and I'd love love love getting to see Kairi struggle and overcome challenges. Lea did kidnap Kairi, and they both have their beginnings in Radiant Garden, so I'm certainly not against Kairi and Lea developing a relationship.

But before Kairi moves on from Sora and Riku, they do need to have more interaction. They're her motivation, and she's said that she wants the three of them to stay together from now on. Sora's clearly just going to be with Goofy and Donald again, but Kairi being with Riku and Mickey to look for the other keyblade wielders wouldn't be out of the question, especially if one of them is Aqua. Her friendships will surely expand as they travel. It's a matter of whether they'll have everything she do be offscreen again.

 

[Arcadia]

Which the series has gone out of its way to say was the incorrect approach. I don't think they'd repeat it now that it's been established as the wrong way to do it. I'm all for Kairi having her own adventure, but it sure isn't going to happen in KH3. Pairing her with Riku makes sense to me, one, because he is a master in need of a pupil, and two, because they are the least developed relationship out of the trio.

Yeah, they say that, but then DDD turned around and.... had them go around whacking Dream Eaters while having an adventure.

In fact I'd argue that BBS proves that the old fashioned way - of living a monastic lifestyle until reaching mastery then being let out onto the worlds and getting smacked upside the head with how little they actually know and understand - leads to very serious problems. In fact, that method runs countermand to one of the core tenants of the series: that the heart grows and becomes stronger through experiences and building friendships and connections.

(Honestly, at this point, I've come to treat anything Yen Sid says with a grain of salt. But anyway...)

Besides, we already know what Riku's doing in KH3, and its not training Kairi and Lea.

To hell with this notion that Kairi has to have a babysitter. Nothing about Riku following Kairi around as her master (eww, also talk about imbalanced relationship dynamics. You want to develop their friendship, placing Riku in a position of authority over Kairi is NOT the way to do it) is going to do anything but constantly overshadow Kairi in her own story.

They probably would write Riku in a way that overshadows Kairi, but Lea's the fan favorite --I'm sure he would do the same, if not moreso, unless Pluto came along.

Trust me, I'm barely tolerating Lea's presence in this scenario. Im still immensely bitter about DDD.

But before Kairi moves on from Sora and Riku, they do need to have more interaction.

But why? Why spend precious narrative time on exploring a dynamic we already know well, and is very likely going to change significantly once the story kicks off?

They're her motivation, and she's said that she wants the three of them to stay together from now on.

And thats the thing: they're not. They're physically together, but on an experience, knowledge and understanding, they might as well be in completely different universes. There is a massive gulf between Kairi and the boys. This is why you physically separate them, make Kairi put her munny where her mouth is. Make her cash in on that desire and prove it by making her work to not only reunite with them physically, but finally catch up to them on an experience and strength level as well. Make her do the work of reuniting instead of being damseled and stuck in one place as a helpless target.

 

[Grono]

Yeah, they say that, but then DDD turned around and.... had them go around whacking Dream Eaters while having an adventure.

In fact I'd argue that BBS proves that the old fashioned way - of living a monastic lifestyle until reaching mastery then being let out onto the worlds and getting smacked upside the head with how little they actually know and understand - leads to very serious problems. In fact, that method runs countermand to one of the core tenants of the series: that the heart grows and becomes stronger through experiences and building friendships and connections.

(Honestly, at this point, I've come to treat anything Yen Sid says with a grain of salt. But anyway...)

Besides, we already know what Riku's doing in KH3, and its not training Kairi and Lea.

To hell with this notion that Kairi has to have a babysitter. Nothing about Riku following Kairi around as her master (eww, also talk about imbalanced relationship dynamics. You want to develop their friendship, placing Riku in a position of authority over Kairi is NOT the way to do it) is going to do anything but constantly overshadow Kairi in her own story.

...or help build their friendship. I just haven't seen enough of them together, and Riku doesn't seem the "demanding" or "controlling" type. I totally agree, though, him as her master is weird. Let Yen Sid be her master, I'd be much more comfortable with that.

But I must admit, SRK are actually more developed than TAV were, so I'm happy that they actually have a plus to their trio over TAV.

 

[Audo]

Besides, we already know what Riku's doing in KH3, and its not training Kairi and Lea.

We've been given a vague sentence about what he's doing. There's nothing saying he can't do both. They are purposefully not talking about Kairi or Lea in any promotional materials yet, likely because they still don't want to spoil KH3D since it's still relatively recent.

Nothing about Riku following Kairi around as her master (eww, also talk about imbalanced relationship dynamics. You want to develop their friendship, placing Riku in a position of authority over Kairi is NOT the way to do it) is going to do anything but constantly overshadow Kairi in her own story.

Two close friends where one is teaching them a skill is not inherently an imbalanced relationship dynamic =___=;;
As for whether or not she gets overshadowed depends entirely on how it is handled. There is nothing saying that this set-up would inherently overshadow her. Plenty of characters have their own stories and manage to develop without needing to be literally sequestered from the rest of the cast.

...or help build their friendship. I just haven't seen enough of them together, and Riku doesn't seem the "demanding" or "controlling" type. I totally agree, though, him as her master is weird. Let Yen Sid be her master, I'd be much more comfortable with that.

Yen Sid is retired, and him as her Master is even worse. You're not going to see Yen Sid go travel worlds. She'd be relegated to Mysterious Tower duty all game.

But I must admit, SRK are actually more developed than TAV were, so I'm happy that they actually have a plus to their trio over TAV.

Not really? TAV, as a trio, was more developed. SRK is more developed individually maybe. But that's not a shocker. You're comparing a trio with 7 games under their belt to a trio with 1.

 

[Arcadia]

Life experience talking here, but...

No. You can't be someone's teacher - have authority and power over them, make choices for them - and still be their equal and friend.

Wasn't that part of what drove TAV apart? Aqua being put into a position of authority and responsibility over Terra and Ventus made them resent her and become angry with her. The change in power dynamics caused their already shaky relationship to explode.

 

[Audo]

Life experience talking here, but...

No. You can't be someone's teacher - have authority and power over them, make choices for them - and still be their equal and friend.

I said inherently, meaning not that it can't happen, just that it doesn't always have to happen.
It completely depends on the way Riku and Kairi would approach it.

Wasn't that part of what drove TAV apart? Aqua being put into a position of authority and responsibility over Terra and Ventus made them resent her and become angry with her.

What tore them apart was a lack of communication.

Like are you seriously suggesting that Aqua becoming a Master is the sole reason why TAV imploded? Never mind the fact that Aqua wasn't even their Master.

 

[Divine Past]

I mean Axel was technically Roxas' mentor and Roxas was the same for Xion and they got along dandy.

 

[MegaWallflower]

Not really? TAV, as a trio, was more developed. SRK is more developed individually maybe. But that's not a shocker. You're comparing a trio with 7 games under their belt to a trio with 1.

I think they mean as a trio of friends . We got a prologue in KH1 to show the "normal" conditions and friendship of Sora, Riku, and Kairi (although according to Kairi, even that was different than their usual dynamic because Riku was changing, and according to Sora, Kairi was, too), and since we've been given more time with them, we've also seen their efforts build their trio back to what it once was. After the last night they ever spent together under the stars, the TAV trio was about how it was falling apart. Ven was quick to side with Terra, to the point where no one congratulated Aqua for attaining her dream, and Aqua had to chase after them, even though there was little preventing them from traveling together aside from bad communication, which is less than it took for SoRiKai (darkness separating them, then Riku's insecurities leading him to clash with Sora, and Kairi being forced out of the picture) and AkuRokuShi (a ton of secrets and ignorance which led to growing mistrust). Their friendship just seems shaky or sort of slanted, in a way. Not that I'm an expert, I might have that all wrong.

Life experience talking here, but...

No. You can't be someone's teacher - have authority and power over them, make choices for them - and still be their equal and friend.

Sora is Riku's teacher in a way. And a friend can help another friend grow without automatically just being above them or outright in charge of them. Roxas taught Xion for some of Days, for example.

 

[Grono]

I think they mean as a trio of friends . We got a prologue in KH1 to show the "normal" conditions and friendship of Sora, Riku, and Kairi (although according to Kairi, even that was different than their usual dynamic because Riku was changing, and according to Sora, Kairi was, too), and since we've been given more time with them, we've also seen their efforts build their trio back to what it once was. After the last night they ever spent together under the stars, the TAV trio was about how it was falling apart. Ven was quick to side with Terra, to the point where no one congratulated Aqua for attaining her dream, and Aqua had to chase after them, even though there was little preventing them from traveling together aside from bad communication, which is less than it took for SoRiKai (darkness separating them, then Riku's insecurities leading him to clash with Sora, and Kairi being forced out of the picture) and AkuRokuShi (a ton of secrets and ignorance which led to growing mistrust). Their friendship just seems shaky or sort of slanted, in a way. Not that I'm an expert, I might have that all wrong.

Haha I meant the friendship aspect as well. I felt like the game was telling us that TAV were best friends, not that we were experiencing it. TV was totally believable, and, hell, even AV and AT were fine, but having all three of them in a trio didn't sit well with me. Alas, maybe if we got more cutscenes and a better scenario/dialogue writer we could have had more to them.

I agree with your shaky comment, too. Aqua never seemed like she ever let Terra defend himself, especially at the end. She never let him give a true reason for killing Eraqus besides "oh, Xehanort made me do it," and even then, she never really forgave him.

SRK, on the other hand, I see more of, for some odd reason. I think this is just because or the SoRiku relationship being SO much stronger than anything in BBS, but their characters seemed to have more to them, even Kairi. I believe Kairi and Riku being best friends WAY more than TAV being best friends, especially after their interaction when he was Riku-Ansem in KHII.

EDIT: by the Aqua comment I mean she never filled herself in on the details. She sounded completely disappointed in Terra for falling for Xehanort's plan again, but if she knew he was protecting Ven, I think she would have been more forgiving. Gah, she really wasn't good until the Final Episode ;P

 

[Audo]

Like I said, the biggest problem with BBS is that none of them actually communicated with each other. If they had 90% of their problems would have been solved.

Also going back to the Kairi/Riku thing. I don't think we can expect Riku to take a traditional Master/Apprentice approach to Kairi, where he'd be some distant teacher with supreme authority over her (The Eraqus approach basically). He isn't that type of character and that isn't their type of relationship. Not to mention the closeness of their ages is also a factor to consider here. I think we could easily see a Master/Apprentice relationship between them that was balanced and grew their friendship.

I also don't think Riku would be the type of Master who thinks it is a good idea to keep the apprentices from never experiencing the outside world, either. Especially given his own history with dealing with that.

 

[Arcadia]

I mean Axel was technically Roxas' mentor and Roxas was the same for Xion and they got along dandy.

Until Axel's lies (part of which came from having authority over Roxas and Xion) made his friendship with Roxas fall apart.

What tore them apart was a lack of communication.

Like are you seriously suggesting that Aqua becoming a Master is the sole reason why TAV imploded? Never mind the fact that Aqua wasn't even their Master.

I distinctly said "part". I'm not ignoring the other issues that happened, but Terra and Ven's resentment of Aqua being turned into their supervisor and babysitter was the whole point of their falling out after the Trinity Armor fight.

Sora is Riku's teacher in a way. And a friend can help another friend grow without automatically just being above them or outright in charge of them. Roxas taught Xion for some of Days, for example.

You're missing the vital element here: authority.

 

[Audo]

Until Axel's lies (part of which came from having authority over Roxas and Xion) made his friendship with Roxas fall apart.

Axel's lies had little to do with having authority over them and almost everything to do with not wanting to lose them. :/

I distinctly said "part". I'm not ignoring the other issues that happened, but Terra and Ven's resentment of Aqua being turned into their supervisor and babysitter was the whole point of their falling out after the Trinity Armor fight.

Except Aqua would always act as their babysitter. That's who she is. She acts that way towards Ventus before she even becomes a Master.

And I reiterate:

Also going back to the Kairi/Riku thing. I don't think we can expect Riku to take a traditional Master/Apprentice approach to Kairi, where he'd be some distant teacher with supreme authority over her (The Eraqus approach basically). He isn't that type of character and that isn't their type of relationship. Not to mention the closeness of their ages is also a factor to consider here. I think we could easily see a Master/Apprentice relationship between them that was balanced and grew their friendship.

I also don't think Riku would be the type of Master who thinks it is a good idea to keep the apprentices from never experiencing the outside world, either. Especially given his own history with dealing with that.

 

[Grono]

Except Aqua would always act as their babysitter. That's who she is. She acts that way towards Ventus before she even becomes a Master.

I think that it's a little bit of both; like when they say that now she has the "duty" to watch over them, they feel like she's trying to control them, even though there was hardly any build up for that... Gah, Birth by Sleep is so flawed in that aspect. So yeah, like an excuse to yell at her for babysitting is because she is a master. I don't know, Ventus and Terra were really whiny after Trinity Armor.

 

[MegaWallflower]

You're missing the vital element here: authority.

Riku being put in a position of authority and acting as her superior would have issues, yes. I totally agree.

But he can mentor her and push her farther without having the relationship that Eraqus had with his pupils. They began as friends on equal footing, and although she's physically weaker than Sora and Riku, the Destiny Islands talks in KH1 don't suggest they look down on her for that. Riku thanks Kairi with such sincerity for coming there and being with them that it catches Sora's attention, and in the talk alone with Sora on the pier, Sora's literally looking up at Kairi, in a scene shot to make her look like a giant.

Riku's the one who gave Kairi her sword and encouraged her to fight, so I think he could push her to grow stronger and get a hang of it in a similar way to how Riku pushed Sora in their fights back when they used toy swords. Riku would theoretically have, in practice, the same authority over Kairi as Roxas exercised over Xion.

Axel's lies had little to do with having authority over them and almost everything to do with not wanting to lose them. :/

Axel having that information and the freedom to withhold it does have something to do with his authority over them. Mostly because the Org benefits from keeping Xion and Roxas as in the dark as possible.

 

[Audo]

I think that it's a little bit of both; like when they say that now she has the "duty" to watch over them, they feel like she's trying to control them, even though there was hardly any build up for that... Gah, Birth by Sleep is so flawed in that aspect. So yeah, like an excuse to yell at her for babysitting is because she is a master. I don't know, Ventus and Terra were really whiny after Trinity Armor.

That scene is honestly really forced, like the plot needed a way for them to break apart again and damnit were they going to do it even if it made no sense and made the characters act ridiculous and contrived.

Riku being put in a position of authority and acting as her superior would have issues, yes. I totally agree.

But he can mentor her and push her farther without having the relationship that Eraqus had with his pupils. They began as friends on equal footing, and although she's physically weaker than Sora and Riku, the Destiny Islands talks in KH1 don't suggest they look down on her for that. Riku thanks Kairi with such sincerity for coming there and being with them that it catches Sora's attention, and in the talk alone with Sora on the pier, Sora's literally looking up at Kairi, in a scene shot to make her look like a giant.

Riku's the one who gave Kairi her sword and encouraged her to fight, so I think he could push her to grow stronger and get a hang of it in a similar way to how Riku pushed Sora in their fights back when they used toy swords. Riku would theoretically have, in practice, the same authority over Kairi as Roxas exercised over Xion.

Yeah I think the biggest mistake here is just automatically assuming that Riku would simply replicate how Eraqus acted as a Master. Riku isn't Eraqus. He would not agree with Eraqus' methods or philosophies. He's not going to be the same as him, especially not to someone he already has a connection and relationship with.

 

[Grono]

Riku being put in a position of authority and acting as her superior would have issues, yes. I totally agree.

But he can mentor her and push her farther without having the relationship that Eraqus had with his pupils. They began as friends on equal footing, and although she's physically weaker than Sora and Riku, the Destiny Islands talks in KH1 don't suggest they look down on her for that. Riku thanks Kairi with such sincerity for coming there and being with them that it catches Sora's attention, and in the talk alone with Sora on the pier, Sora's literally looking up at Kairi, in a scene shot to make her look like a giant.

Riku's the one who gave Kairi her sword and encouraged her to fight, so I think he could push her to grow stronger and get a hang of it in a similar way to how Riku pushed Sora in their fights back when they used toy swords. Riku would theoretically have, in practice, the same authority over Kairi as Roxas exercised over Xion.

I agree with MegaWallflower all the way on this one. Riku never looked down on Kairi for not being much of a fighter; hell, she was his inspiration for fighting in the first place! Him giving her her keyblade made the most sense out of anyone in the second game, because of this relationship. I always imagined it like the Terra Ventus relationship from BbS; one is a mentor, not master, and one is the pupil. They are both best friends, and are close in ages, just one looks to another for guidance when fighting. It seems like, if anything, Kairi would have the same deal going on with Riku.

 

[Divine Past]

Looking at the relationship from the limited screen time we get, Kairi really does have the loudest voice. Of course I don't mean it by volume but the way she acts shows she's very confident and has shown to be the leader in conversation. Riku to me seems pretty passive post KH COM when he's talking about non life&death situations so I don't see Riku really being to control her just by using his words if you catch my drift.

Kairi's got a loudmouth in comparison to S/R so I don't see her being too passive unless they ignore her brief charachter moments in the past . Also it doesn't help Riku has the social skills of a cucumber either.

 

[Grono]

Kairi's got a loudmouth in comparison to S/R so I don't see her being too passive unless they ignore her brief charachter moments in the past . Also it doesn't help Riku has the social skills of a cucumber either.

not to mention that Sora still wants to shoot his white beam into her keyhole sometime ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Audo]

not to mention that Sora still wants to shoot his white beam into her keyhole sometime ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)