What if they are also trapped in sleep?



REGISTER TO REMOVE ADS
Status
Not open for further replies.

Gram

Banned
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
15,616
  • You've Got A Friend In Me
  • Master of Monologues
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 1.5 ReMIX
  • Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance
  • Keyblade Master
Ansem & Xemnas I mean. These two beings come from a very mixed mess of origin. Though they are dominantly Xehanort they also have Terra and Eraqus in this mix and Xemnas at the very least is confirmed to draw from Terra as well as MX.
Then there's even more given the possible 4th persona that was the Apprentice Xehanort that split into Ansem/Xemnas.

Quite frankly these two beings are a mess but at the same time they arguable MX's greatest pawns. They were the ones to fulfill his KH1/2 plans of finding 7 pure lights and 13 vessels. They were the ones that did more damage in ten years to the worlds than MX ever did personally. And even in their failures they still provided MX with enough to still yet continue his plans after their defeat.

They were quite frankly his best seeds/seekers/slaves of any person he's possessed in this series run.

But therein lies the uncertainty of their defeat, the mixed nature.

To delve into what I'm getting at here let's remember what 'recompletion' is:
Nomura said:
VIII. When the heartless are defeated, what becomes of the stolen hearts? Also, when members of Organization XIII and other Nobodies are defeated, do they return to their original form?

When heartless are defeated, essentially the owner's hearts are rejoined with their once extinguished body, whichever world it may be on. As for the whereabouts of hearts in KHII that turn up, this time they remarkably went to the Organization (there is a foot note here that says "In Kingdom Hearts II after heartless were defeated, the many hearts were absorbed by the Kingdom Hearts of "people's hearts"). However, in the rare case that the body changed into a Nobody and when there is no container for the heart, it resorts to a state of suspension.

In the case of a Nobody being defeated, it's a little more complicated. If the above mentioned hearts are liberated, they return to their original form. However, if the heart is still stolen by the heartless, the Nobody's body is swallowed by darkness. If somewhere in the world their hearts are taken back, perhaps they might be able to return to their original human form.
In normal cases when a body loses the heart it does one of two things:
1) It "extinguishes" and stays as such until the heart is free to return to it once more.
2) It becomes a nobody because of that persons strong will and heart to carry on.

This process was the catalyst for many characters return in DDD. Axel, Even, Ienzo, and all the other apprentices of Ansem the Wise were reborn thanks to this however not just them but also Xehanort.

Now, once again in normal cases, the nobody and the lost heart seem to become one individual even if the nobody itself formed a new heart.
We see this with Lea/Axel, Ienzo/Zexion, and Aeleous/Lexeaus.

Just as the memories of their human life made their nobodies nearly identical to themselves, the memories of their nobody life followed them back as they became human again making who they was as human and who they became as a nobody the same person.

Granted this is the only three cases we have right now as Dilan and Even as said to be in an "unstable" state still and Xigbar and Saix are an unknown to us at current since they didn't appear with the apprentices at all as they were supposed to.
There's more going on with these four people than we know of at current.

However the point I'm making is that in normal cases of shown so far, barring a seed of MX's heart or lack of human memories into the equation (like Roxas), the two beings become one upon revival.

This however is were the complexity of Ansem & Xemnas comes into play. Unlike Axel or the apprentices who were identical to their human lives and unlike Roxas who had no memory of his human life, they in fact not only remember their human lives but at the same time the memories they hold aren't from a singular heart but three.

MX, Terra and Eraqus were the hearts that gave rise to Ansem & Xemnas and we see this in their natures even if Nomura has yet to tell us in what portions.
What we know is that Apprentice Xehanort released these hearts and this action birthed Ansem & Xemnas.

Therein lies the issue of revival for Ansem and Xemnas though. Logically speaking it would be impossible for them to return to MX, Terra or even Eraqus because they weren't born one single entity but all three.
This means that they can't "pull and Axel" and become one with their human self because they have more than one human self.

This gives rise to the second issue of a revival for them. Not only do they have no one heart they can return to but they also have no body to return too.

Recompletion returns all that is divided back to the whole. The body that was Xemnas' body was actually Terra's. Going by the laws of recompletion that means that Terra's heart would naturally go back to his body.
And of course they can't return to MX's body because MX's body wasn't even in their makeup because MX abandoned it to possess Terra.

So do you see what I'm getting at? The hearts of Ansem and Xemnas can't return to the heart of their somebody because they have no singular somebody like Axel did nor can their hearts return to a body because they never truly had a body of their own because Ansem stole Riku's which was returned to Riku and Xemnas was inhabiting Terra's which should've rejoined with Terra's heart.

Ansem & Xemnas can't be "recompleted" because everything about them and what they had from their original selves would go back to those original selves, Terra & MX.

So now the big question of this theory. "If they can't return to MX, Terra or a body then where did they go?"
What has happened to the hearts that held the individual yet MX controlled personalities of Ansem and Xemnas?

Well I propose to you a notion, a very much simple notion, that they have "fallen into sleep".

Dream Drop Distance itself is set in the "Realm of Sleep". A realm that is made up from worlds fallen into sleep. Of course worlds too have hearts and like any living being with a heart those worlds dream but not just them but the being inhabiting that those worlds.
Every person you meet in DDD is either a fabrication of the sleeping world to fill the void of those who escaped its' destruction or people who fell with that world and that are now trapped with it in sleep.

Basically put people too can fall into sleep. Sora & Riku willingly dived into this sleep to venture to these worlds and Joshua brought the TWEWY crew into this sleep as well.
Anything holding a heart can fall into sleep essentially.

Just think about that for a second, take a look at the sleeping worlds of DDD. These worlds too underwent a type of "recompleteion". Their hearts was taken by heartless between BBS and KH1 and then those hearts was freed after Ansem's defeat at the end of KH1.
Once freed most of these worlds returned, in a sense their hearts and the remnants of the physical planet returned to normal. Pretty much a universal scale version of what recompletion is to normal people, they body vanishes and the heart is lost then the body comes back once the heart is saved.

And it was some of these worlds saved and restored in KH1 that was unable to leave sleep for unknown reasons.

Would this not parallel Ansem & Xemnas? Just think of it. They too underwent completion however as the "remnants" of who they were reformed the hearts they formed for themselves was trapped in sleep since all the "remnants" of who they were didn't even belong to them to start with.

To further add to the mystery there's this curious statement:
— After generating and before attacking Sora, were Xemnas and Ansem somewhere that exceeded beyond time?

Nomura: That’s right.
Which is even curiouser when you add Yen Sid's remark:
Yen Sid said:
In the Sleeping Worlds, real time does not flow. Unless one restores the world by waking it from its slumber, it will stay locked in a dream forever.
Didn't no one else find it odd that Ansem would need Young Xehanort to come get him each time he traveled? Ansem, as the Robed Figure, was the first Xehanort to time travel even give the boy this very power:

Nomura said:
First off, when Young Xehanort made contact with the Brown Robed Figure, that is to say, the Xehanort who called himself Ansem, his abilities were transferred to him. As a result of Master Xehanort tossing his physical body, he was able to exceed time, and this power was carried into the Brown Robed Figure. Thus when Young Xehanort made contact with him, he gained this power. Possessing this power. Young Xehanort functioned as a “portal”, summoning Xemnas and Ansem each time they appeared. That’s why Young Xehanort was there whenever they appeared. Additionally, when Sora and Riku dropped into the worlds of sleep, simultaneously Young Xehanort himself goes into the world of sleep.
So why would he need help to travel time now? It's said YX gained this power via contact with Ansem but it's never said Ansem transferred it to him completely.

Going by the line of thought of this theory it'd make sense that Ansem can't travel on his own anymore because the Ansem we see in DDD was the present version lost to the Realm of Sleep in which "real time does not flow".

So by being in sleep Ansem and Xemnas are thus in a place that exceeds beyond time itself because the Realm of Sleep does not have a flow of time!

----------------------------------

Long theory made sort, Ansem & Xemnas, having nowhere else to go during MX's revival, fell into a state of sleep were they were then trapped in that Realm which exceeds times flow.
YX, having gained both time travel and a means to enter the dream realm thanks to Robed Figure (KH1 bodiless Ansem), is now able to freely locate and retrieve present Ansem & Xemnas.

*looks at clock* Holy crap it's 2:15am....I'm betting I'll be editing a good bit of this tomorrow, sleepy brain is in affect....oh well tell me what ya think. xD And please be gentle I'm sure there's bumps in it somewhere given the time it is as I type it.
 

kuraudoVII

D'oh, I missed!
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
1,974
Location
Somewhere in Castle Figaro...
  • Final Fantasy X/X-2 HD Remaster
Hmm...I have to admit, it's an interesting theory. I always chalked up the fact that you only ever see Ansem and Xemnas in the sleeping worlds simply because that was where the plot was and the fact that Young Master Xehanort was usually with them being a result of them being there to antagonize Sora and Riku as is the wont of many a JRPG villain. Now that you mention this, though, I can't help but rethink some of the scenes that played out in that game.
 

FudgemintGuardian

"Indeeeeeeeeeeeeed."
Joined
Jan 16, 2012
Messages
5,379
  • The Foreteller
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • Savage Nymph
  • Come So Far
  • Beauty Within
  • O, Purest of Hearts
I was thinking the same since your other thread a couple days ago.

And it makes since for reasons you already gave above. (Agh, I can't add anything because your post is so perfect!) This also clarifies something for me about Ansem. I was wondering what point in time he was from since he seemed too different from his other appearances to be from then. While I've pretty much always assumed he's from after being purged by Ansem the Wise's Deus ex Machina 5000™, my mind was stuck on him being from the past because of the whole time travel thing, so thanks for un-stucking my brain.
 

Gram

Banned
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
15,616
  • You've Got A Friend In Me
  • Master of Monologues
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 1.5 ReMIX
  • Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance
  • Keyblade Master
Hmm...I have to admit, it's an interesting theory. I always chalked up the fact that you only ever see Ansem and Xemnas in the sleeping worlds simply because that was where the plot was and the fact that Young Master Xehanort was usually with them being a result of them being there to antagonize Sora and Riku as is the wont of many a JRPG villain. Now that you mention this, though, I can't help but rethink some of the scenes that played out in that game.
I know what ya mean. I've been rethinking every Ansem/Xemnas scene for the past few days now.

I was thinking the same since your other thread a couple days ago.
Likewise. Sephiroth0812 gave me a lot to base on for this as well.

And it makes since for reasons you already gave above. (Agh, I can't add anything because your post is so perfect!) This also clarifies something for me about Ansem. I was wondering what point in time he was from since he seemed too different from his other appearances to be from then. While I've pretty much always assumed he's from after being purged by Ansem the Wise's Deus ex Machina 5000™, my mind was stuck on him being from the past because of the whole time travel thing, so thanks for un-stucking my brain.
haha I'm surprised it's even half perfect given my sleep deprived mind when making it.
Your welcome, I always loving slapping a brain out of place~

If you think about it this even explains how Xemnas & Ansem would be physical even though they have no body of their own. Being in the realm of sleep were dreams rule, it'd make sense their current forms are "dreamed" up by their hearts.
It's a similar vain to how the TWEWY crew have physical presence there even though Joshua states their normal existences came to an end in their worlds. (tying into TWEWY's set up of being people who've died)
 

kuraudoVII

D'oh, I missed!
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
1,974
Location
Somewhere in Castle Figaro...
  • Final Fantasy X/X-2 HD Remaster
Ansem the Wise's Deus ex Machina 5000™
Why do I suddenly see Billy Mays in the sleeping worlds advertising this? XD

If you think about it this even explains how Xemnas & Ansem would be physical even though they have no body of their own. Being in the realm of sleep were dreams rule, it'd make sense their current forms are "dreamed" up by their hearts.
It's a similar vain to how the TWEWY crew have physical presence there even though Joshua states their normal existences came to an end in their worlds. (tying into TWEWY's set up of being people who've died)
That actually makes a lot of sense now that you mention it. The concept of death in that game seems slightly similar to that of the concept of the sleeping worlds. I think I am beginning to see a reason why Nomura put those characters in beyond fanservice for those that have played The World Ends With You.
 

Gram

Banned
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
15,616
  • You've Got A Friend In Me
  • Master of Monologues
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 1.5 ReMIX
  • Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance
  • Keyblade Master
Why do I suddenly see Billy Mays in the sleeping worlds advertising this? XD



That actually makes a lot of sense now that you mention it. The concept of death in that game seems slightly similar to that of the concept of the sleeping worlds. I think I am beginning to see a reason why Nomura put those characters in beyond fanservice for those that have played The World Ends With You.
Billy Mays, king of the nightmares~ xD

As mentioned in Grass theory: http://forums.khinsider.com/kingdom-hearts-iii/194630-rebirth.html death does definitely lead to the heart falling into sleep or returning to KH. (or perhaps both)
So I can definitely agree with you on the TWEWY characters. Sure I imagine a bit is fanservice as with any cameo but Joshua was given an oddly large amount of explanation time don't ya think? ;3

From Joshua we learned a number of things but most importantly that:
Joshua said:
In their world, something happened that brought their existence to
an end. To keep them from fading altogether, I gathered up the very last
remnants of their dreams and looked for a place to give them refuge. It was
then this world appeared to answer my call, and Rhyme's dreams allowed us to
reach it. Here, I thought they might have a chance--that the pieces of their
dreams could make them whole again. Imagine my surprise when I realized
dreams take bodily form in this world. It struck me--by linking their dream
pieces back together, maybe I could make them exist again.
Maybe I could give
them another chance.
Riku said:
It can't be that simple.
Joshua said:
Well, why can't it? By ourselves, we're no one. It's when other
people look at us and see someone--that's the moment we each start to exist.
All they needed was for someone to see them, connect with them. And the two
of you were a big part of making it happen.
In the realm of dreams, hearts lost there, can not only be brought back but given physical presence. Perhaps this was MX's means of reviving Ansem and Xemnas post defeat.
Their defeat revives MX and he in turn revives them via YX finding them and bringing them to him.
 

Sephiroth0812

Guardian of Light
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
10,222
Location
Germany
  • Cloaked Schemer
  • Taciturn Stalwart
  • Chilly Academic
  • Whirlwind Lancer
  • Ever Gentle and Kind
  • Fairest of them All
That tidbit with Joshua's explanation and the spin towards what Xehanort's intentions might be is really spot on.

In the realm of dreams, hearts lost there, can not only be brought back but given physical presence. Perhaps this was MX's means of reviving Ansem and Xemnas post defeat.
Their defeat revives MX and he in turn revives them via YX finding them and bringing them to him.
Since the physical presence only pertains to the Realm of Dreams though, MX may have used this to awaken the sleeping Ansem and Xemnas within the RoS, but for a permanent (complete) revival of Ansem and Xemnas in the physical world as there would be the need of a body for them to inhabit. The TWEWY-gang has own bodies that might be restored (just as when an once extinguished body is retored when a Heartless is purified) when Joshua truly manages to "bring back their existences".
When "time was up" in the end of DDD and every time traveler had to return to their respective time, I would think that Ansem and Xemnas were cast back into the RoS with their temporary dreamed up "physical shell" dissipating, back "outside time" because they're not supposed to exist as independent entities anymore.
Maybe though they actually remained in TWTNW and await for MX to revive them fully as I remembered now that TWTNW can exist in both the Sleeping Realm and the "real" world at the same time due to its special properties.
 

Gram

Banned
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
15,616
  • You've Got A Friend In Me
  • Master of Monologues
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 1.5 ReMIX
  • Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance
  • Keyblade Master
That tidbit with Joshua's explanation and the spin towards what Xehanort's intentions might be is really spot on.
Thanks~ After giving the theory thought as I made it it hit me just how much of Joshua's words apply to revival. o_0

Since the physical presence only pertains to the Realm of Dreams though, MX may have used this to awaken the sleeping Ansem and Xemnas within the RoS, but for a permanent (complete) revival of Ansem and Xemnas in the physical world as there would be the need of a body for them to inhabit. The TWEWY-gang has own bodies that might be restored (just as when an once extinguished body is retored when a Heartless is purified) when Joshua truly manages to "bring back their existences".
Not necessarily. Keep in mind that Sora formed a physical form even after his body made Roxas. The worlds too were restored as Sora woke them even though it was said the remnants of some of those worlds made others. (Traverse Town)
Granted I do think Ansem & Xemnas are still stuck "beyond time" but I think MX likely has a means of summoning them to the physical plan in a similar vein to how he could pull YX from the past or how DE's appeared in the real TWTNW even though it was the real world rather than the dream one.

When "time was up" in the end of DDD and every time traveler had to return to their respective time, I would think that Ansem and Xemnas were cast back into the RoS with their temporary dreamed up "physical shell" dissipating, back "outside time" because they're not supposed to exist as independent entities anymore.
Maybe though they actually remained in TWTNW and await for MX to revive them fully as I remembered now that TWTNW can exist in both the Sleeping Realm and the "real" world at the same time due to its special properties.
My thoughts as well on the first bit. I mean if you think about it MX doesn't even need to revive them fully, just a means to summon them physically to the real world when he needs them.
 

Gram

Banned
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
15,616
  • You've Got A Friend In Me
  • Master of Monologues
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 1.5 ReMIX
  • Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance
  • Keyblade Master
Da bump cause just came across this:

- Ansem and Xemnas, as well as Master Xehanort's forms appear, but are they the real thing?

Nomura: Well, about that... Ansem and Xemnas appear often, harassing Sora and Riku.
link: Nomura Interview in 3/15 Famitsu Translated! - News - Kingdom Hearts Insider

This was kinda a shock for me lol. Here I have a theory that they aren't technically real in a sense but rather dreaming hearts and then here you have Nomura flat out avoiding answering the question of whether their real or not.
 

digimikej

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2011
Messages
317
Location
RIGHT BEHIND YOU!
I thought I had posted in this thread already. weird. anyways, on to the topic,
This was kinda a shock for me lol. Here I have a theory that they aren't technically real in a sense but rather dreaming hearts and then here you have Nomura flat out avoiding answering the question of whether their real or not.
Nomura avoiding ANY question is surprising to you? the man has never answered a question straight. If he was asked, "Was that soras' mom calling him at the beginning of KH1 when he left his room?" he would answer, "it certainly seems that way, doesn't it? *laughs*".

on the theory, though. I like it,I think it makes sense and the joshua quote really helps the case. it does make me think of something, though, a problem that encompasses a whole part of the XIII darkness' story.
I don't see how Xemnas could possibly be seeded. he was a nobody. sure, he mightv'e grown his own heart, but he can't have been seeded, as for him to be seeded would require him to still have the seeded heart, be it terras' or eraqus'. Also, I don't buy the whole, "he was a form of xehanort just influenced a tiny bit by terra" even at this point, because it just makes a bunch of his actions make no sense. He HAD to have been a snarl of memories-esque mix of xehanort and terra, or a whole other can of worms opens up. then again, they haven't totally cleared up the "where did those three hearts go when apprentice xehanort went all stabbity on everyone including himself?" bit, have they? so, the only solutions really, to that problem, are either A) Xemnas is being xehanort-seeded currently, or has just been seeded right when all the xehanorts got together/get together (we have no clue if they are all together still after that one moment, and it seems likely that they aren't based on the whole, "what now? we're outta time, you old coot!" comment.).
B) they care not for worm cans, and revel in their opening,which leads back to A.
C) he does indeed have one of those three seeded hearts
or D) they DO care about can opening, and he would be in a terra-like situation, where he doesn't neccasarily (god damn that word i will never spell it right) want to be a darkness, but xehanort heart swag trumps your hearts swag, yo.
I feel like im missing something important that rips my argument to shreds, but i'm tired and can't put my finger on it. I'm sure someone will be kind enough to help me remember,lol.
 

Gram

Banned
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
15,616
  • You've Got A Friend In Me
  • Master of Monologues
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 1.5 ReMIX
  • Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance
  • Keyblade Master
When it comes to Xemnas its best to keep in mind that we have absolutely no idea how all that got divided between Ansem & Xemnas during the split. Nomura won't tell.
So whether Xemnas had "little bits" is just some fan speculation. All that we know is that Xemnas was obviously dominated by his Xehanort half.
The fact that Xemnas was using the Org to work towards MXs goal the entire time does tell us that Xemnas had almost always been a seeded vessel.

As to how he got seeded there's several ways to explain it but nothing would be confirmed.
For instance:
A) Xehanorts memories. We don't know how it was divided but we know they are there and we know Xemnas is definitely one of MXs pawns and has been most his existence. We also know one of the factors that grow a heart is memories. So it's possible that the heart he formed was from the memories of all three of his human selves but MX retained dominace since that's how it plays out when a part of his heart invades another.
B) Eraqus or Terra remained within Xemnas.
C) Xehanort left a part of his heart inside.
D) Xehanort, as Ansem, done the seeding.

There's many ways to explain Xemnas but in the end it's all moot. We know Xemnas is a vessel regardless of how.
 

Gram

Banned
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
15,616
  • You've Got A Friend In Me
  • Master of Monologues
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 1.5 ReMIX
  • Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance
  • Keyblade Master
Just a fun idea I seen mentioned the other day. What if Vanitas is like Ansem & Xemnas?

Like both of them Vanitas had no body to return too. Ventus rejected him and his own body was destroyed. This leaves Vanitas homeless in a sense and as we've seen hearts that drift off into darkness tend to fall into sleep.

Perhaps YX was in the realm of sleep to collect Vanitas just like Ansem & Xemnas.
 

kuraudoVII

D'oh, I missed!
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
1,974
Location
Somewhere in Castle Figaro...
  • Final Fantasy X/X-2 HD Remaster
Just a fun idea I seen mentioned the other day. What if Vanitas is like Ansem & Xemnas?

Like both of them Vanitas had no body to return too. Ventus rejected him and his own body was destroyed. This leaves Vanitas homeless in a sense and as we've seen hearts that drift off into darkness tend to fall into sleep.

Perhaps YX was in the realm of sleep to collect Vanitas just like Ansem & Xemnas.
Hmmmm. I remember hearing that the vision of Vanitas speaking right next to Young Master Xehanort was due to Ventus reacting to the darkness and I've always wondered why Ventus decided to react right then and there. Perhaps it is also due to the fact that Young Master Xehanort was in the process of picking him up.
 

Gram

Banned
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
15,616
  • You've Got A Friend In Me
  • Master of Monologues
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 1.5 ReMIX
  • Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance
  • Keyblade Master
^ Ya heard right. Ventus reacted to Vanitas in that moment. It's how Nomura refers to Vanitas as lacking a body that intrigues me most.
He never said the Vanitas we saw was from another time but lacking a body. And if you think about it if he was from BBS he'd have a body meaning the Vanitas we saw must be present.

Leads me to think Vanitas is like Ansem & Xemnas in the regard he's not traveling through time but now stuck outside it as they are.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top