The Unpopular Opinions Thread

[Guernsey]

I remember how on a poster on Reddit made a point that we were supposed to question what the mentors say about well...everything. I think we took them all at face value and I think we just wanted to see what we wanted to seer,

 

[Zackarix]

I remember how on a poster on Reddit made a point that we were supposed to question what the mentors say about well...everything. I think we took them all at face value and I think we just wanted to see what we wanted to seer,

I see variations on this all the time when talking about KH's story. "Kingdom Hearts isn't full of retcons at all, just characters who are capable of lying, being wrong, or having amnesia!" I gotta say, I don't agree.

For example, one of the big "mentors bad" moments was in KH2, when the mentors said that Nobodies weren't real and didn't have hearts. As it turns out Nobodies do have hearts, so clearly this was intended as an example of showing that mentors can fail and mislead, right?

Well no. I think that writing emotionless characters was hard and fans were horrified by Roxas's fate, so the direction of the story was changed and the lore was altered to make it happen, making the mentors wrong retroactively. But at the time of writing they were supposed to be correct, which is why the ending of KH2 was so conclusive and happy.

It would be one thing if it was just Ansem the Wise who was wrong, but Mickey Mouse and Yen Sid back him up. And these three characters are still treated as trusted mentor figures! If we're supposed to be questioning them the characters shouldn't still be viewing them as the authorities.

The only mentor that I think we were supposed to question was Eraqus, and even he's not supposed to be as bad as fans make him out to be.

 

[Guernsey]

It just makes me wonder how much was planned and how much was made up?

 

[Phoenix]

That's the thing, I don't think there's a message there. Nomura legitimately changes the lore and themes of the games as he goes on.

That's why there's such a big focus on THE Keyblade in 1, and that becomes laughable really quick. Or why it's such a big deal that Riku uses the darkness in CoM, but that kinda becomes an afterthought later.

The reason Mickey doesn't talk about Aqua is because Aqua didn't exist as a character concept yet. It's a boring answer, but there it is.

 

[Chie]

It just makes me wonder how much was planned and how much was made up?

If you've ever done serial storytelling, you'll know that this is an unanswerable question, despite how many people fixate on it.

When you write a story that continues on for an indefinite amount of time, you are both thinking ahead and improvising at the same time. You can't plan everything out perfectly, because plans will change based on the real-world circumstances of creating the work; on the other hand, you are always thinking towards the future and building an idea of the bigger picture in the back of your head, even if it isn't set in stone until you write it into the game.

Take Xigbar for example. Nomura, from at least as early as 2FM, was writing Xigbar as someone who knew more than he let on and had a greater importance. Obviously it would be impossible for Nomura to know from the beginning that Xigbar was Luxu, because he wouldn't introduce Luxu + MoM for many years. But is that reveal really "made up", if the idea had always been for Xigbar to serve a greater purpose in the narrative? Perhaps Nomura did have a vague idea of what kind of purpose that was, but didn't iron out the details until later; but continued to write the story as leading towards something bigger regardless.

Again, this is how it always goes with writing like this. We can't separate things into "planned" or "unplanned", it's all one big thing known as creation. Sometimes, even, the story will surprise the writer, and things will accidentally connect in ways the writer didn't intend but that make complete sense.

 

[MATGSY]

If you've ever done serial storytelling, you'll know that this is an unanswerable question, despite how many people fixate on it.

When you write a story that continues on for an indefinite amount of time, you are both thinking ahead and improvising at the same time. You can't plan everything out perfectly, because plans will change based on the real-world circumstances of creating the work; on the other hand, you are always thinking towards the future and building an idea of the bigger picture in the back of your head, even if it isn't set in stone until you write it into the game.

My favorite example of this is probably Beast Wars. At the outset, the show wasn't intended to be a continuation of the original transformers cartoon. However as early as the first episode, the writers were planting seeds for possible future story developments, with each seed being able to grow more than 1 way.

1 such seed was the "Great War", mentioned in passing a couple of times but not elaborated on any further until the 2nd season. As the show was meant to be standalone, the great war was just some prior conflict between the maximals & predacons (the show's main factions). However fans on usenet groups speculated if it was referring to the war between autobots & decepticons from the original G1 show. The writers, upon reading these posts, basically went "eh, why not?" & went ahead with the fan theory. The result was Beast Wars got a hell of a lot more epic in its scope & elevated both itself & G1 in reverence.

Of course, it was still nonetheless a retcon that comes with a few notable hangups. The BW version of Megatron went from being the predacon the most obsessed with gathering energon in S1 to claiming the energon motive was merely a ruse to recruit a crew for his true goals. For that matter, "BW version of Megatron" was another continuity snag, there were multiple characters that shared names with G1 characters without any explanation. Makes sense in a reboot, not so much in a sequel series. & this one didn't get any real in-universe explanation either.

But because the writing was so damn good at this point, fans were more than willing to roll with the weirdness & embrace the retcon that defined BW.

 

[MysticMage10]

I'm gonna get hate on ALL sides of this fandom, but fuck it.

SW and Marvel should not be in KH, period. (And before anyone brings up the alleged Endor sighting in the KH4 trailer, I said it shouldn't be not that it won't be) Basically, no live-action IPs should be in KH. Tron and POTC felt very tonally out of place, though Tron gets a bit of a pass since in Space Paranoids you were essentially just hanging out with computer programs and not actual people. Pete scheming with Captain Barbossa will forever be a cursed moment for me, and not in a funny way.

KH3 isn't as good as everyone says it is.

Roxas and Naminé shouldn't have returned. Xion's return is at least a bit justifiable since she wanted to be her own person, in contrast to both Roxas and Naminé eventually coming to terms with becoming one with Sora and Kairi.

The series began to fall apart after KH2 (around BBS)

I really hated the stupid "twist" of nobodies actually being able to grow their own hearts, like what's the point of being nobodies then?

DDD and KH3 had the worst selection of worlds.

I despise how any game after KH2, Sora acts like a fucking dim-witted child, with even the characters in game, friend or enemy, taking jabs at his intelligence. (WTF was that "Sora can't read" scene all about? Like, it wasn't even funny if it was trying to be)

 

[Phoenix]

I mean, you're a 100% right, Marvel, Star Wars and other associated purchased Disney properties shouldn't being KH. They're not "magical" in the same way Hercules, Aladdin and Tarzan are.

KH worked (for me) because it combined fairy tale worlds and characters with FF elements. Those worlds had so little lore that you could almost imagine them being different planets you could travel to. It would've worked just as well if they were books you were jumping into. Those worlds were barely Earth, or anything real with real people. They were story books being eaten by darkness. That's a simple concept, but it's great.

Marvel and Star Wars (and frankly, PotC) aren't this. They're fully realised universes with a lot of associated baggage. PotC just barely works, and Star Wars will be bad, but Marvel will have no soul. It will just be there to get people to buy the game. And it'll be worse than Arendelle.

 

[Luminary]

SW and Marvel should not be in KH, period. (And before anyone brings up the alleged Endor sighting in the KH4 trailer, I said it shouldn't be not that it won't be) Basically, no live-action IPs should be in KH. Tron and POTC felt very tonally out of place, though Tron gets a bit of a pass since in Space Paranoids you were essentially just hanging out with computer programs and not actual people. Pete scheming with Captain Barbossa will forever be a cursed moment for me, and not in a funny way.

I don’t mind them being in, but I definitely don’t want it to be at the expense of Disney/Pixar worlds. Marvel and Star Wars have so many games on the market and in development. KH is unique because there aren’t really any big budget video game adaptions of Disney/Pixar movies. When live action films are included, I wish they would do a stylized “animated” version of these worlds rather than making them “live action”.

KH3 isn't as good as everyone says it is.

I wouldn’t say this one is unpopular. Most people crap on KH3, even though I think many have warmed up to it more post-Re:Mind (like they did with KH2 post-FM.) I think the game has a lot to love, but plenty of areas deserving of the criticism.

Roxas and Naminé shouldn't have returned. Xion's return is at least a bit justifiable since she wanted to be her own person, in contrast to both Roxas and Naminé eventually coming to terms with becoming one with Sora and Kairi.

Honestly agree. Their return takes so much of the emotional impact out of KH2’s ending for me.

The series began to fall apart after KH2 (around BBS)

For me, DDD and Coded were more of the issue by deciding everyone needs to come back. If I were to rewrite it, I would have focused on just bringing back the BBS trio and Master Xehanort for KH3. Could still have the recompleted organization members and Vanitas too, but leave Xemnas, Ansem SoD, etc. out of it.

I despise how any game after KH2, Sora acts like a fucking dim-witted child, with even the characters in game, friend or enemy, taking jabs at his intelligence. (WTF was that "Sora can't read" scene all about? Like, it wasn't even funny if it was trying to be)

Another pretty common opinion I think. CoM Sora has the best characterization to me. I hope KH4 gives him some more internal struggles like that game had.

 

[MysticMage10]

They're not "magical" in the same way Hercules, Aladdin and Tarzan are.

See, you get it!

KH worked (for me) because it combined fairy tale worlds and characters with FF elements. Those worlds had so little lore that you could almost imagine them being different planets you could travel to. It would've worked just as well if they were books you were jumping into. Those worlds were barely Earth, or anything real with real people. They were story books being eaten by darkness. That's a simple concept, but it's great.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. Neither SW nor Marvel have the same level of whimsy and fairytale magic that both Disney and FF share, which is why both IPs were able to work well in the first place. It's why when POTC appeared in both KH2 and 3, it felt very disjointed from the rest of the worlds. Same with Tron in DDD, there were moments that felt like I wasn't even playing KH anymore.

 

[MysticMage10]

When live action films are included, I wish they would do a stylized “animated” version of these worlds rather than making them “live action”.

See, this right here, would've been better than straight up awkwardly shoving live-action Jack Sparrow "Johnny Depp" into a game with toontown/ anime looking character models. It's why I'm not completely against SW if it was done in the Clone Wars style, but still at least to me, including a franchise that wasn't even a Disney IP to begin with would still feel odd considering neither SW or Marvel have the same kind of whimsical vibe as and Disney or FF entries.

For me, DDD and Coded were more of the issue by deciding everyone needs to come back.

Ngl, both those games made it worse for me, especially with the introduction of time travel as well as the "groundbreaking" plot twist that nobodies were able to grow there own hearts, even though doing so would defeat the point of being a nobody. (That revelation slightly ruined Xemnas' character for me ngl) BBS was the beginning of the end for me because that game was the game that introduced many plot points and created a lot of plot HOLES in the process. Several inconsistencies, such as when Terra "bequeathed" Riku despite not even being a master, Lea and Isa showing up as teens which would make one question at what point they became nobodies if nobodies don't age, etc. The introduction of the unversed and Vanitas was just bad, imo. Like, not even KH3 knew what to do with him, omg.

 

[Phoenix]

While I'm already ranting, you're totally right that time travel is an awful idea, and not only on its own merit, but also for providing cover to a really damaging concept that began after KH2; not letting characters stay dead. The tragedy of Roxas is powerful (ie. I guess my summer vacation is over). It's sad, it's unfair, but so much pathos flows from it. DiZ's guilt and redemption, Axel's impossible quest to get him back, Roxas' own lingering will (hah) and battle with Sora, and his eventual acceptance of his fate. Axel's death saving the last remnant of his best friend, and all of this tragedies coming back to Xemnas, who has his own sad death. All of this is good. All of it is undone because Nomura won't let them stay dead, even if he has to rewrite the entire mythos of the series to justify it.

And Xion? That, times 1000. Her story was PERFECT. She did not need to come back, and her story is weaker for it.

I could go on and on. Every single death made it so that that the survivors that make it through have something to fight for, are more interested, and (let's be frank) cuts down on the gargantuan cast and lets them get screentime.

Roxas, Xion and Namine should be dead. The return of Lea is fine, and would be more interesting if he had to reckon with the fact that Sora is the closest thing he now has to Roxas. Terra should've gone down with Xehanort. DiZ should be dead. None of the Xehanorts should've come back, except Terranort (per the rules of the setting).

I'm going to be really upset when all the foretellers and union leaders all end up being alive and can't fit the fucking Twilight Town clocktower.

 

[MysticMage10]

While I'm already ranting, you're totally right that time travel is an awful idea, and not only on its own merit, but also for providing cover to a really damaging concept that began after KH2; not letting characters stay dead. The tragedy of Roxas is powerful (ie. I guess my summer vacation is over). It's sad, it's unfair, but so much pathos flows from it. DiZ's guilt and redemption, Axel's impossible quest to get him back, Roxas' own lingering will (hah) and battle with Sora, and his eventual acceptance of his fate. Axel's death saving the last remnant of his best friend, and all of this tragedies coming back to Xemnas, who has his own sad death.

Yes, to all this. Roxas and Naminé had a proper conclusion, I don't know why tf they were brought back, other than for cheap pandering. By that logic wtf was the point of Naminé's "not disappearing but becoming whole" line?

The return of Lea is fine, and would be more interesting if he had to reckon with the fact that Sora is the closest thing he now has to Roxas.

Also this! Axel's last moments with Sora, when they teamed up together, the small banter they shared, it was only a glimpse of what could've been a blossoming friendship. But nope, we just had to bring Roxas and the others back. It's not like they had accepted their fate before hand so now we got fucking RE:CODED talking about how they're hurting and need to be saved.

 

[MATGSY]

>_>

<_<

Lloyd>Nimoy.

*Runs away*

 

[MATGSY]

I'm gonna get hate on ALL sides of this fandom, but fuck it.

SW and Marvel should not be in KH, period. (And before anyone brings up the alleged Endor sighting in the KH4 trailer, I said it shouldn't be not that it won't be) Basically, no live-action IPs should be in KH. Tron and POTC felt very tonally out of place, though Tron gets a bit of a pass since in Space Paranoids you were essentially just hanging out with computer programs and not actual people. Pete scheming with Captain Barbossa will forever be a cursed moment for me, and not in a funny way.

For what it's worth, KH4 is set in what is basically a whole separate universe. Like the Disney world selection pretty much HAS to be categorically different this time around. It's not going to work to have the game go on & on about how Sora's not in Kansas anymore but he then goes to Princess & the Frog or Atlantis worlds.

 

[Chie]

Yeah, I would generally try not to make anything resembling a counterargument in an Unpopular Opinion thread, but the entire premise of KH4 is Sora being in the real world (or well, there's a whole conceptual game going on where what's clearly hyperrealistic tokyo japan is referred to as "fiction" and the world of disney cartoons is "nonfiction", but the conclusion that's leading you towards is obvious). Sora IS live-action now, he has skin pores and normally-proportioned feet instead of clown shoes. There's nothing magical or fairytale or storybook about this situation. That's the entire central conceit.

And now I'm really getting into more than I should here, but the potential inclusion of Star Wars is also in the context that this real world Tokyo is simultaneously the setting of Nomura's cancelled Final Fantasy game. And also Quadratum is literally Latin for Square. I'm sure the reader can think of at least a few different ways that Star Wars might be related to Squaresoft, Final Fantasy and Nomura. And Kingdom Hearts.

 

[Zackarix]

Lea and Isa showing up as teens which would make one question at what point they became nobodies if nobodies don't age

Nobodies DO age. This is an example of why WoG is not the same thing as canon. We have one interview saying that Nobodies don't age against things like Ienzo having completely different models when losing his heart and after regaining it and Namine having different models for CoM and KH2. KH has become unnecessarily complicated as it's gone on, but I have no idea why this is held up as some grand contradiction and not just some interview statement that wasn't thought all the way through.

 

[Chie]

Yeah and it's not even a """retcon""" because (iirc) KH2 was already released when Nomura said that lol.

 

[Squood!]

As for the Nobodies growin hearts thing, I don't subscribe to the "RoxNam are just diff"[well they are in the sense they were able to be seperate from their originald with pretty much no drawbacks for said originals until the Org butted in with their memory crap for Sora] thing and instead feel like Nobodies gainin' hearts has actually been foreshadowed a long time.

Like Roxas was stated to have a heart by DiZ himself in KH2. KH2FM added the scene where Axel and Rox basically ruminate on the matter.

 

[SuperNova]

I'm of mixed opinion here, but I have no issue with SW or Marvel being in KH. Sure, they are both fantastical in nature because Force and or Superheroes, but they are still different worlds.

What I am NOT looking forward to is remake worlds. Its a cheap excuse to introduce similar but different versions of characters like Aladdin or Ariel. I'm already not very hyped for KH4 going Final Fantasy, bringing in the unpopular remake worlds will just tank it worse than KH3.