The Organization was bad?

[Smile]

Indeed, it's why I said with Roxas it works in a different way, he's not a PoH, thus his only effect is to modify slightly the state of Axel's heart wherever it is, and so allowing him to have emotions.

You're comparing a Nobody (albeit a special one, yet a Nobody all the same) to a PoH, whose definition is having a pure HEART. I think the logical dissonance it rather obvious here.
Also, it's been hinted that Axel's 'feelings' came from Roxas's general attitude of him wanting a Heart, him not liking being a Nobody, and the both of them clinging to the pretense of friendship so they can pretend.
It makes sense if you think about it, seeing what a great part of Sora's life his friendship with Riku was.
Roxas was imitating it and Axel was all too happy to tag along because it helped him pretend too.
There's nothing more to it than that, though.

Not to say, but it looks a little easy that way... He felt those emotions. Print whatever you want, it won't replace the true and yet, he really felt them as true, hinting to a never broking link between heart - body/soul IMO.

No, that's you disregarding and ignoring and contradicting base facts in the games.
If anything those things could've possibly been said about Roxas and Sora, but those two are hardly the general rule. They're not even qualified to being an exception, being too different.
Nobodies don't have emotions. It's as simple as that.

Because it is what others had convinced him of. Sometime you can be right, but if many people say you the contrary you'll think to be wrong. But millions of wrong wouldn't make one right.

Neither is you ignoring game facts. Nobobdies feel the lack of Heart, first and foremost, themselves.
Roxas didn't need Xemnas to come and tell him "you're a Nobody", he knew something was wrong before that and knew there was truth in Xemnas's words.

In KH1 it was explained quite clearly that Darkness are the incarnation of Evil, and yet in KH CoM and 2 you see another face of it...

Because Riku is the exception to prove the rule.
Riku has a Heart strong enough to wield a Keyblade; further more, he never turned into a Heartless.
Had Riku had a Nobody we could've discussed this further.
Seeing, however, that he cannot, put Riku aside under a league of his own.
They do plot twists; they don't alter definitions and rules of the game.

Also, CoM made pretty clear that the memories reside in the heart. Didn't nobody have memories?

Once the Hearts Lost those Memories when becoming a Heartless.
Heart turns into a Heartless = Memories move to Body.

I saw few time, but generally the dog bitted... Still I see what you mean Also, a baby whine, without reason except the pain, same for the dog... But Vexen whined because he was scarred. Same for Zexion. How scared would be not an emotion?

Fear is another one of the more basic instincts. You know on a very basic level something's bad for you and you want away from it. It's an extension of the survival instinct, or in a way - "one of" the survival instincts, making it part from the Heart.
Look at it this way, even - Heartless won't go and save themselves; Nobodies will, at least the higher level ones.

I don't know much, so I won't say, though I heard that most of this kind of things are linked to the psychologie, and sometime you 'heal' of those through pyschology.

Of course a mental trauma is inflicted and that needs to be cured as well.
However, the very basic phenomena of a phantom limb is when the nerve ends where the limb was cut aren't fried, or dead, or whatever. Thus, when someone who used that limb before sends a command on instinct, those nerves react, making for the illusion the command was received and thus, that the limb is still there.

 

[Tervenaq]

Nobodies have a personality. It's far enough to give them character development.



The Organization needing KH, the revelation about Ansem being an heartless and an impostor, the Xehanort plot twist, DiZ being AtW, etc etc...

Sorry, I am just tired at the amount of hatred KH2 has since recently while without it KH plot around Xehanort wouldn't exist.

I agree. Personally, I think KH2 kicked the sh*t out of the first. The only reason that the 1st was better was due to the ending song and the ending itself. Awesome.

 

[oblivionkeyrocks]

they were willing to harm people to to it. they bad

 

[Raz]

I don't think they were that bad. Sora could've tried to find a middle-road, instead of being a block-head and just killing everything that breathed.

I don't think the Organization deserved what they got.

 

[lock&key]

I don't think they were that bad. Sora could've tried to find a middle-road, instead of being a block-head and just killing everything that breathed.

I don't think the Organization deserved what they got.

yeah the org were misunderstood from my veiw. i think they could've helped each other in alot of ways.

 

[Smile]

People keep dissing Sora without looking at what the Organization did do to deserve him coming after them.
Whether they were good or bad themselves means nothing when you look at what they did and the roads they took to achieve it.
Sora didn't just go after them for fun.

 

[Reflection]

I don't think they were that bad. Sora could've tried to find a middle-road, instead of being a block-head and just killing everything that breathed.

I don't think the Organization deserved what they got.

They were releasing Nobodies in all the worlds! If it wasn't for Sora getting to Twilight Town, they probably would have ended up killing Seifer & Co.

Or not. Disney might not approve of that. >.>

 

[Mr. Wilhelm]

You're comparing a Nobody (albeit a special one, yet a Nobody all the same) to a PoH, whose definition is having a pure HEART. I think the logical dissonance it rather obvious here.
Also, it's been hinted that Axel's 'feelings' came from Roxas's general attitude of him wanting a Heart, him not liking being a Nobody, and the both of them clinging to the pretense of friendship so they can pretend.
It makes sense if you think about it, seeing what a great part of Sora's life his friendship with Riku was.
Roxas was imitating it and Axel was all too happy to tag along because it helped him pretend too.
There's nothing more to it than that, though.

No, that's you disregarding and ignoring and contradicting base facts in the games.
If anything those things could've possibly been said about Roxas and Sora, but those two are hardly the general rule. They're not even qualified to being an exception, being too different.
Nobodies don't have emotions. It's as simple as that.

Neither is you ignoring game facts. Nobobdies feel the lack of Heart, first and foremost, themselves.
Roxas didn't need Xemnas to come and tell him "you're a Nobody", he knew something was wrong before that and knew there was truth in Xemnas's words.

Because Riku is the exception to prove the rule.
Riku has a Heart strong enough to wield a Keyblade; further more, he never turned into a Heartless.
Had Riku had a Nobody we could've discussed this further.
Seeing, however, that he cannot, put Riku aside under a league of his own.
They do plot twists; they don't alter definitions and rules of the game.

Once the Hearts Lost those Memories when becoming a Heartless.
Heart turns into a Heartless = Memories move to Body.

Fear is another one of the more basic instincts. You know on a very basic level something's bad for you and you want away from it. It's an extension of the survival instinct, or in a way - "one of" the survival instincts, making it part from the Heart.
Look at it this way, even - Heartless won't go and save themselves; Nobodies will, at least the higher level ones.

Of course a mental trauma is inflicted and that needs to be cured as well.
However, the very basic phenomena of a phantom limb is when the nerve ends where the limb was cut aren't fried, or dead, or whatever. Thus, when someone who used that limb before sends a command on instinct, those nerves react, making for the illusion the command was received and thus, that the limb is still there.

Well, we are totally opposite in our way of thought, and any debate won't bring us to believe each others point, adding to this that right now I really don't feel like entering a so big debate, I'll just say we each stay with our opinion. I don't believe pretending anything make you feel like the truth, in this case pretending emotions, I also don't believe applying real life logics to an Universe like KH is a good idea, and I above all don't believe they don't alter rule and definition of the game. You speak of it like if the game was perfect and flawless, everything inside of it makes perfect sense, which is totally untrue for the mere reason that none video game ever reached the perfection and no one ever will. Thus why Nobody having emotion enter in the category of Nomura's mistake that in a next installment he's gonna to pretend it was in fact his genius which made all of this.
We won't agree, so I don't go further in the debate.

Oh, and I am not ignorant on KH knowledge, I know that Riku never turned into an heartless, thank you.

They were releasing Nobodies in all the worlds! If it wasn't for Sora getting to Twilight Town, they probably would have ended up killing Seifer & Co.

From another side they are rejected by everyone : trying to have a double view on the events help to understand them.

 

[Reflection]

From another side they are rejected by everyone : trying to have a double view on the events help to understand them.

Being rejected by everyone doesn't justify going out and wreaking havoc in the worlds.

 

[Mr. Wilhelm]

Being rejected by everyone doesn't justify going out and wreaking havoc in the worlds.

It doesn't justify but it explains. Let's say that tomorrow you become a nobody. Not only you cannot have emotion any more, you want them back and every human reject you. An old wise (Yen Sid) say to a Keyblader (Sora) that you're the incarnation of evil.
What choice remains? The one of the Organization did and none other. Prior to Sora's awakening, there's no sign any nobody ever attacked the worlds.

 

[Reflection]

I understand that, but just because you can sympathize with them doesn't their actions were acceptable to Sora.

 

[tazztig]

They could have stop right???><

 

[Mikazuki]

I was thinking this because they truly just wanted to be whole, but actually that's not the case. Xemnas, the leader, was seeking Kingdom Hearts to become some type of Godly-being and rule the universe, which is a no-no. And the leader's ambitions are truly the entire Organization's ambitions, though not personally, but since they all followed him, they were helping him for this cause. Really, Xemnas was the bad guy and all the others were pawns in his game...In a way.

 

[Smile]

I understand that, but just because you can sympathize with them doesn't their actions were acceptable to Sora.

Looks like that as long as it doesn't involve Kairi, we see pretty much eye to eye XD;
Or is it just this?
I agree with that statement.
And I personally find it ridiculous when people say to look at things from both ways but then they ignore the 'first' way.

 

[Reflection]

Looks like that as long as it doesn't involve Kairi, we see pretty much eye to eye XD;

lol, I guess so!

 

[Mr. Wilhelm]

And I personally find it ridiculous when people say to look at things from both ways but then they ignore the 'first' way.

We don't ignore it, merely that the quantity of person seeing only this one is important enough for we don't spend time explaining Sora's view, the quantity of person considering the Organization was wrong and had to die at all cost is far more important.

 

[Smile]

We don't ignore it, merely that the quantity of person seeing only this one is important enough for we don't spend time explaining Sora's view, the quantity of person considering the Organization was wrong and had to die at all cost is far more important.

Surprise surprise, I disagree.
And no one says the Organization had to die at all cost - they had to be stopped, there's a difference. They just wouldn't have stopped on any other way.

 

[xegerog]

i completly agree with you. they werent so much bad. they would just do anything to get here hearts back.understandable

 

[Iridium]

Yes, there goals were good but the way of achieving them was immoral.
Makes me feel bad for them, especially Saix for his death scene.. that really hit me.