The 13th vessel for Master Xehanort

[Chuman]

Wasn't Vanitas in 3D more like a projection in Sora's dreams because of Ventus' heart inside him? I don't really think Vanitas was properly "there" at that time.

i meant during the gathering towards the end.

I just realized we've forgotten about a rather norty-lookin' fellow.

CHEEEESE AND BACON, DONUTS

NOT SONIC

 

[VoidGear.]

Ohhhh I see. Hm, well...this is weird now. My head hurts from thinking about it.

 

[LightAndOblivion]

well if they joined together at the end of bbs

and vanitas was norted

ventus is in castle oblivion

and vanitas was with xehanort in DDD

there be a fucking plothole.

Or Xehanort through Braig/Xigbar can just get the jump on the heroes before they wake Ven up, kidnaps Ven and take him to get Nortified by Xehanort.

 

[Chuman]

Or Xehanort through Braig/Xigbar can just get the jump on the heroes before they wake Ven up, kidnaps Ven and take him to get Nortified by Xehanort.

via time travel? can it even work like that tho? and what im saying is, thanks to vanitas, he would already be partway nortified.

 

[BlackOsprey]

Or Xehanort through Braig/Xigbar can just get the jump on the heroes before they wake Ven up, kidnaps Ven and take him to get Nortified by Xehanort.

Ven's body is in Castle Oblivion, where Aqua- and only Aqua- can find him. All that time that Xemnas had Axel looking for that chamber apparently brought up nothing, so it's safe to assume that Ven's body is still safe. Moreover, you can't just drag someone out of their timezone... it would go against what little we actually understand about KH time-travel, the "you can't re-write events already destined to happen" clause. Also, Vanitas is more likely to be in Ven's heart,​ which is currently asleep in Sora's heart.

 

[VoidGear.]

So...nortified through a "sub"source? Reminds me of the creation of Naminé...

 

[Chuman]

So...nortified through a "sub"source? Reminds me of the creation of Naminé...

i consider it like a rental, or conditional lease

 

[LightAndOblivion]

Ven's body is in Castle Oblivion, where Aqua- and only Aqua- can find him. All that time that Xemnas had Axel looking for that chamber apparently brought up nothing, so it's safe to assume that Ven's body is still safe. Moreover, you can't just drag someone out of their timezone... it would go against what little we actually understand about KH time-travel, the "you can't re-write events already destined to happen" clause. Also, Vanitas is more likely to be in Ven's heart,​ which is currently asleep in Sora's heart.

Except him being in Ven's heart right now makes no sense since why would he react to Ventus' presence in DDD when Trollanort came in to talk to Sora in the Hunchback world?

And just because Ven's body is at Castle Oblivion and Aqua being the only one that could locate his body doesn't mean Xehanort and his group can't ambush them.

Use Aqua to get Ventus for him. Sounds like something Xehanort would do.

And I never mentioned anything about time travel? You're probably trying to comment to another user.

 

[Chuman]

Except him being in Ven's heart right now makes no sense since why would he react to Ventus' presence in DDD when Trollanort came in to talk to Sora in the Hunchback world?

dreams. time travel. xehanort. sora. darkness. heart. the keyblade.

any of these options will explain anything in the KH franchise.

 

[BlackOsprey]

Except him being in Ven's heart right now makes no sense since why would he react to Ventus' presence in DDD when Trollanort came in to talk to Sora in the Hunchback world?

Last I checked, Vanitas' body was destroyed and he forced his heart to merge with Ven's. After that little Battle Within the Heart, where could he have gone? No separate body to return to, and a heart can't just float around outside of a body without either turning into a Heartless or simply dying.

As for why Vanitas appeared in the cathedral... Well, Nomura might say that it was Ven's heart reacting to Kid Version of his old master, but I kinda figure that it was just to make it VERY clear as to who Trollanort was referring to when he started talking about how Sora's heart was a prison.

 

[Chuman]

Leave it to nomura to leave important info vague.

 

[VoidGear.]

I actually don't know where else except "inside" Ventus' heart Vanitas' heart would be right now. Floating around somewhere? Nah... Still in his mindless body? Doesn't make sense either. D:

 

[Zak1403]

it would go against what little we actually understand about KH time-travel, the "you can't re-write events already destined to happen" clause.

This clause isn't really that important, if it's destined that a form of Xehanort would go into the past to bring said someone to the present then it would happen regardless. I see people throwing this line around as an excuse all the time, when it honestly doesn't matter all that much.

 

[BlackOsprey]

This clause isn't really that important, if it's destined that a form of Xehanort would go into the past to bring said someone to the present then it would happen regardless. I see people throwing this line around as an excuse all the time, when it honestly doesn't matter all that much.

The main reason why that rule was established in the first place was to keep time travel from becoming too OP. Or, if it's even possible, more stupid. Because you'd have some serious explaining to do if you just went back in time and snatched some present-day character's past self out of their timeline. I mean, say that Xehanort went back in time and took... hm, KH1 Riku as a vessel. Pulled him out of the timeline for him to be a part of the DDD meeting and the X-Blade forging. Can you even begin to explain how present-day Riku could be around if that happened? Plus it would diddly up so many events between then and there. It just doesn't work like that...

Leave it to nomura to leave important info vague.

He leaves thing vague, people get mad. He gives specific answers, people get mad.

I think I'm ok with the vagueness, but w/e. 8D

 

[LightAndOblivion]

Last I checked, Vanitas' body was destroyed and he forced his heart to merge with Ven's. After that little Battle Within the Heart, where could he have gone? No separate body to return to, and a heart can't just float around outside of a body without either turning into a Heartless or simply dying.

As for why Vanitas appeared in the cathedral... Well, Nomura might say that it was Ven's heart reacting to Kid Version of his old master, but I kinda figure that it was just to make it VERY clear as to who Trollanort was referring to when he started talking about how Sora's heart was a prison.

We don't know where Vanitas' heart went. That's one of the current mysteries right now along with the Terra and Eraqus shit. Vanitas' heart could have went anywhere. Maybe with Xehanort or whatever form he was in at the time.

Nomura flat out said Ventus was reacting to Vanitas' presence and vice versa. The whole point was to show Vanitas still exists in some form. The overall nature of his current circumstances is the mystery here. But seeing how you literally see Kid Xehanort walk in to talk to Sora and then all of a sudden Ven's heart starts reacting to Vanitas' presence....

You can kinda put two and two together here. Whatever is left of Vanitas was chilling with Kid Xehanort. That makes a lot more sense given what we saw and what Nomura said.

 

[Zak1403]

The main reason why that rule was established in the first place was to keep time travel from becoming too OP. Or, if it's even possible, more stupid. Because you'd have some serious explaining to do if you just went back in time and snatched some present-day character's past self out of their timeline. I mean, say that Xehanort went back in time and took... hm, KH1 Riku as a vessel. Pulled him out of the timeline for him to be a part of the DDD meeting and the X-Blade forging. Can you even begin to explain how present-day Riku could be around if that happened? Plus it would diddly up so many events between then and there. It just doesn't work like that...

Master Xehanort: "We are out of time. Neither the Union of night nor darkness has been achieved, and we must all return whence we came."

If destiny says that KH1 Riku is ment to be a part of the Xblades creation then he will be. All that would have to happen is for Young Xehanort to go back to that point in time when Riku is possessed (as its a version of himself), pick Riku up and bring him to the present. No events have been changed because the form of Riku (KH1) would, after the Xblades creation, return to his proper place in time with no memories of the events that occur. This is the whole point of the time limit for traveling to the present, that Xemnas and Ansem etc are subject to at the end of DDD.

Basically the rule is rubbish as an excuse for why things couldn't happen, if it's destined to happen it will, then the universe will fix itself, put you in your proper time and erase all memories.

A further example -
Young Xehanort goes back to pick Xemnas up before his death.
Brings him to the present where he is free to basically do whatever he wants.
The time limit of his stay, the extent of YX's powers, is up.
He returns to the point where YX picked him up with no memory of what happened.
Xemnas then goes on doing what destiny has set for him, and falls to Sora and Riku.

Its pretty simple really.

 

[Chuman]

Master Xehanort: "We are out of time. Neither the Union of night nor darkness has been achieved, and we must all return whence we came."

If destiny says that KH1 Riku is ment to be a part of the Xblades creation then he will be. All that would have to happen is for Young Xehanort to go back to that point in time when Riku is possessed (as its a version of himself), pick Riku up and bring him to the present. No events have been changed because the form of Riku (KH1) would, after the Xblades creation, return to his proper place in time with no memories of the events that occur. This is the whole point of the time limit for traveling to the present, that Xemnas and Ansem etc are subject to at the end of DDD.

Basically the rule is rubbish if it's destined to happen it will, then the universe will fix itself, put you in your proper time and erase all memories.

A further example -
Young Xehanort goes back to pick Xemnas up before his death.
Brings him to the present where he is free to basically do whatever he wants.
The time limit of his stay, the extent of YX's powers, is up.
He returns to the point where YX picked him up with no memory of what happened.
Xemnas then goes on doing what destiny has set for him, and falls to Sora and Riku.

Its pretty simple really.

a really simple, yet complicated, totally superfluous copout.

 

[Nayru's Love]

The main reason why that rule was established in the first place was to keep time travel from becoming too OP. Or, if it's even possible, more stupid. Because you'd have some serious explaining to do if you just went back in time and snatched some present-day character's past self out of their timeline. I mean, say that Xehanort went back in time and took... hm, KH1 Riku as a vessel. Pulled him out of the timeline for him to be a part of the DDD meeting and the X-Blade forging. Can you even begin to explain how present-day Riku could be around if that happened? Plus it would diddly up so many events between then and there. It just doesn't work like that...

It can, and it does work like that, especially if Young Xehanort of all people can be there.

We don't know where Vanitas' heart went. That's one of the current mysteries right now along with the Terra and Eraqus shit. Vanitas' heart could have went anywhere. Maybe with Xehanort or whatever form he was in at the time.

Nomura flat out said Ventus was reacting to Vanitas' presence and vice versa. The whole point was to show Vanitas still exists in some form. The overall nature of his current circumstances is the mystery here. But seeing how you literally see Kid Xehanort walk in to talk to Sora and then all of a sudden Ven's heart starts reacting to Vanitas' presence....

You can kinda put two and two together here. Whatever is left of Vanitas was chilling with Kid Xehanort. That makes a lot more sense given what we saw and what Nomura said.

I think it can be assumed that Vanitas' heart became one with Ven's again, especially considering how the beginning of BBS foreshadowed Ven reclaiming his lost fracture. With Nomura's quote in 3D Ultimania, he didn't say that Ven's heart was reacting to Vanitas, but that it was reacting within Sora's heart, most likely in response to YX's manipulation. If anything, I imagine Vanitas was and always has been within Sora, and could partially manifest himself through Young Xehanort, who himself is a portal for other vessels. That he still exists in some form is undebatable, though, and how he'll be brought back will most likely be important in KH3.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on Vanitas in DDD, and his position as a possible vessel:

Vanitas is complicated; from what we can assume from his one scene, his presence is partially dependent on Sora's own presence, most likely meaning that he cannot exist on his own. A rule in time travel is that, to travel to somewhere, you must exist within the flow of time. With no body, I assume that Vanitas does not completely exist, and must use both Sora and Young Xehanort as intermediaries. If anything, I expect him to be the 13th vessel.

 

[LightAndOblivion]

It can, and it does work like that, especially if Young Xehanort of all people can be there.



I think it can be assumed that Vanitas' heart became one with Ven's again, especially considering how the beginning of BBS foreshadowed Ven reclaiming his lost fracture. With Nomura's quote in 3D Ultimania, he didn't say that Ven's heart was reacting to Vanitas, but that it was reacting within Sora's heart, most likely in response to YX's manipulation. If anything, I imagine Vanitas was and always has been within Sora, and could partially manifest himself through Young Xehanort, who himself is a portal for other vessels. That he still exists in some form is undebatable, though, and how he'll be brought back will most likely be important in KH3.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on Vanitas in DDD, and his position as a possible vessel:

That still doesn't really make much sense though since Nomura specifically said Ventus was reacting to Vanitas' presence and Vanitas was reacting back. This wouldn't happen if they were both in Sora's heart. That's why Vanitas not being with Sora and Ventus makes more sense and that he was simply lingering around with Young Xehanort seeing how he doesn't have a physical body at the moment according to Nomura.

 

[Nayru's Love]

That still doesn't really make much sense though since Nomura specifically said Ventus was reacting to Vanitas' presence and Vanitas was reacting back. This wouldn't happen if they were both in Sora's heart. That's why Vanitas not being with Sora and Ventus makes more sense and that he was simply lingering around with Young Xehanort seeing how he doesn't have a physical body at the moment according to Nomura.

I'm not entirely sure if we're talking about the same quotes here. This is what I'm working off of:

— Why did Xehanort and co. word things as if to try and wake Ventus who is inside Sora?
Nomura: They did so in order to tempt Sora’s heart and have it fall to the darkness. In the story it also talks about how abandoning the self leads to losing the heart. When you see Vanitas (the dark half of Ventus who appeared in KHBBS) overlay Young Xehanort for a moment, that represents Ventus’ heart reacting inside Sora.

[Source]

Ven's heart reacts, but Vanitas' presence was arguably explained more as the effect than the cause, the cause more likely being YX's manipulation.