Revelation on Riku's Memories

[Zulkir]

Thanks for bringing that up, miss Pan.
So I was right about the memories, but I swapped the direction they were coming from.

The logic can still work in a similar way.
Originally I believed that Xion was absorbing Riku's memories because they were inside Sora (since she's Sora's clone, she should only be absorbing his memories).
But in this case, it could be that Xion is absorbing memories from Riku because she's replicating this ability from Sora himself. That is, for whatever reason, Sora had started to absorb some of Riku's memories, and when Xion was created, she mimicked this ability.

I know it sort of seems like I'm trying to work my way around Xion, but I'm not doing it because I dislike her. I just feel that, given that KH3D will focus on the relationship between Sora and Riku, that there had to be a connection there that wasn't necessarily created from Xion.

I know it's not wildly popular, but I still hold that there's a chance Riku has Vanitas' side of the heart. Unappealing somewhat, given the amount of other hearts in him. But it really adds some great perspective on the struggle between Sora and Riku in KH1.
And, as I've stated, in order to be truly revived, Ven ought to get his old heart back. In other words, retrieve the part that he destroyed.



No I'm not.
Don't ever flatter me like that. Deifying someone because of their theories is putting them in the same category as KMA on GameFAQs, and I don't ever want to even be remotely compared to him.

Recall that Nomura did say that Riku didn't get his "dark suit" out of nowhere when a Vanitas question was posed. (I really need to find that though, I vaguely remember it.)

I used to think that this comment was made early in development when Vanitas probably had a stronger connection with Riku, but then the idea was later scrapped during development, as we've seen no visible connection between Riku and Vanitas.


If Nomura didn't intend for Ven to retrieve Vanitas back into his heart, then that would be changing what we've seen so far as the definition of the heart. That would mean Ventus's identity(or perhaps anyone's identity) is based upon the light of his/her heart.


Do you think the Ventus that we played is different than the "real" complete Ventus, since he didn't have his darkness?

EDIT: Yeah..can't find that interview about Vanitas and Riku's suit(in heartseams's sig), blargh.

 

[Silverslide]

Maybe it was attained through Ansem SoD's memories or something. Or Maleficents memories of Vanitas, since she was working with MX in BBS, she might've seen Vanitas.

 

[Zulkir]

So far it looks like something normally associated with Darkness.

People were wondering where that fighting stance came from, people thought that came from Vanitas too, but MX also uses the same stance as Vanitas sometimes, it's just something associated with Darkness.


If Riku does have the "Vanitas side" then that might explain it a bit further(especially if he had that side since KH1, since Vanitas was last seen fading into some light that formed into Ven's awakening platform).

Maleficent did give some darkness abilities to Riku, she may have gotten that ability from MX which may explain the similarity.

 

[Absolute]

Maleficent did give some darkness abilities to Riku, she may have gotten that ability from MX which may explain the similarity.

That's true. MX did tell Maleficent about the princess hearts and the keyblade, so he could have told her about some of the abilities of darkness and the dark suit.

 

[Grey]

Do you think the Ventus that we played is different than the "real" complete Ventus, since he didn't have his darkness?

Yes. Which makes me wonder who "Roxas" is. Is Roxas's personality based upon a mix between Ventus's and Sora's? Is it just Ventus, but Ventus + Vanitas (his complete being, both light and dark)? Or is it just the light Ventus, corrupted slightly by darkness or whatever (accounting for Roxas's moodier personality as opposed to Ven's, which generally was more like Sora)?

I suppose that can be answered by explaining where exactly AtW took Vanitas's Heart and gave it to Sora. That's one thing I'm confused on. I like Grass's theory, but it's left me confused on where certain people's hearts are. According to the theory:

Sora had Kairi's Heart and Ventus's light half of his Heart inside of him, in addition to his own, at the start of KH. He lost Kairi's and Ven's at Hollow Bastion and regained Ven's at The World That Never Was.
Riku had his own heart, plus Vanitas's, at the start of KH, and then gained Xehanort's during KH. He then lost Vanitas's Heart, which ended up going back to Sora, who has Ven's. This creates a link between Sora and Riku, because they both have one half of the same person inside of them. Ven's half is reflected in Roxas, while Vanitas's half is reflected in Riku's dark suit.

I'm following all of that correctly, yes?

And then AtW took Vanitas's heart out of Riku and into Sora... between KH and KH2? At the end of KH2? I can remember when AtW's Heart Encoder first came into play.

 

[gelandporn]

Do you think the Ventus that we played is different than the "real" complete Ventus, since he didn't have his darkness?

Hard to say whether or not his attitude would change but in some respect, yes, we weren't playing as the "real" Ven.

Maleficent did give some darkness abilities to Riku, she may have gotten that ability from MX which may explain the similarity.

My thoughts:

I'd like to also point out something interesting:
Compare this scene with this one.

It's very clear that Maleficent is doing the same to Riku as she did to Terra, unlocking the sleeping darkness. Note, too, what she says to Terra:
"I am able to control that which sleeps. I will awaken your true heart."

The same could be said for Riku. She awakens his "true heart," the sleeping darkness. Just like Ventus' heart sleeps in Sora, Vanitas' heart slept in Riku, until Maleficent awoke its power. And what was the result? After that, Riku could take the Kingdom Key from Sora and use his dark suit, one extremely similar to Vanitas'.

Sora had Kairi's Heart and Ventus's light half of his Heart inside of him, in addition to his own, at the start of KH. He lost Kairi's and Ven's at Hollow Bastion and regained Ven's at The World That Never Was.
Riku had his own heart, plus Vanitas's, at the start of KH, and then gained Xehanort's during KH. He then lost Vanitas's Heart, which ended up going back to Sora, who has Ven's. This creates a link between Sora and Riku, because they both have one half of the same person inside of them. Ven's half is reflected in Roxas, while Vanitas's half is reflected in Riku's dark suit.

And then AtW took Vanitas's heart out of Riku and into Sora... between KH and KH2? At the end of KH2? I can remember when AtW's Heart Encoder first came into play.

Well, Sora regained Ven's heart at the start of KH2, not in TWTNW. That was when Roxas first merged with Sora.
The link between Sora and Riku, I think, was established before AtW put Vanitas' heart in Sora.
When you think about the link that existed between Ven and Vanitas (sharing memories, feeling the same emotions), I imagine that Sora and Riku may have had a similar experience.

The theory proposed that AtW used the heart encoder for Vanitas' heart between CoM and KH2 (ie Days).
But, honestly, I'm only so-so on the whole idea of transplanting Vanitas' heart.

 

[Goldpanner]

Kanemaki is a horrible writer =/

"Riku’s head hurt, which was making him frown."

awesome.

"That’s not Naminé or Kairi, that’s, that person."

so descriptive. "that person". I know exactly who they're speaking of!~

She really is. Her favourite line is "*character* swung the Keyblade down" in place of describing battle sequences. I don't know how many times I've typed that line... lol

And I think they're leaving it blank on purpose, of course. It flows better in Japanese... Where in English we would say something like 'That's not Namine or Kairi... that's... him/her,' the Japanese pronoun they used doesn't inflect for gender, which we don't have a match for in English. So I have to say, 'that person' lol AND THEN IT'S AWKWARD AND I FEEL CRAPPY

Yeah, i know what you mean by revealed/retconned.

As for AtW's data, i don't know i think it might give us clues or lead us directly to all these.

Well, I am 95% sure that the data is connected to 'opening the door', whatever it is. And if Riku's memories are connected to 'opening the door' somehow...

Thanks for bringing that up, miss Pan.
So I was right about the memories, but I swapped the direction they were coming from.

The logic can still work in a similar way.
Originally I believed that Xion was absorbing Riku's memories because they were inside Sora (since she's Sora's clone, she should only be absorbing his memories).
But in this case, it could be that Xion is absorbing memories from Riku because she's replicating this ability from Sora himself. That is, for whatever reason, Sora had started to absorb some of Riku's memories, and when Xion was created, she mimicked this ability.

I know it sort of seems like I'm trying to work my way around Xion, but I'm not doing it because I dislike her. I just feel that, given that KH3D will focus on the relationship between Sora and Riku, that there had to be a connection there that wasn't necessarily created from Xion.

Hm, I hadn't thought of that. Nothing really explains why Xion could take Riku's in the first place, does it? But then again, it never really explains why she can suck memories out of Roxas, either. I mean, we can assume that it's because she has Sora memories inside her already and that created some kind of connection randomly... Unless the Org made her like that on purpose? (A mirror created to reflect Roxas...?) I can't remember. Whatever it is, it's very convenient, and I wouldn't put it past the writing of that game to make her able to absorb Riku's memories simply because she can, either. (Kind of like the reason she has black hair. Or the reason her fake Keyblade works like a real one. Or the reason she gets an Org coat and number but not a chair. She just does.)

...lol I am not as unbiased as you, evidently

The reason I don't think Sora was absorbing Riku memories before Xion copied the trick is because Namine seemed surprised to see the Riku memories there, and they appeared right as Snarl of Memories was happening. If Xion was just copying something Sora was doing... then shouldn't some have already been in there?

Or is this an ability that Sora had, but never used? But then why wouldn't he have used it yet? Cause he hadn't met Riku in person until that time, and Xion came into contact with Riku before Sora himself did? But then, wouldn't another painful Snarl have happened in KH2 when they did meet...? Cause Riku got a pretty painful headache and blacked out during the Snarl in Days, according to the novels.

Lol... and all this is according to the novels. So it could all be crap anyway.

I know it's not wildly popular, but I still hold that there's a chance Riku has Vanitas' side of the heart. Unappealing somewhat, given the amount of other hearts in him. But it really adds some great perspective on the struggle between Sora and Riku in KH1.
And, as I've stated, in order to be truly revived, Ven ought to get his old heart back. In other words, retrieve the part that he destroyed.

I'd like to think this too, because I like the dynamic it adds... but... I don't know if Vanitas was actually 'destroyed' in that he disappeared. I think perhaps it could be more like, after the battle, that side of Ven's heart was rendered wounded beyond recognition and needed time to heal, rather than cut out completely and missing. Vanitas kind of melted into the floor of the station, after all.

It's very clear that Maleficent is doing the same to Riku as she did to Terra, unlocking the sleeping darkness. Note, too, what she says to Terra:
"I am able to control that which sleeps. I will awaken your true heart."

The same could be said for Riku. She awakens his "true heart," the sleeping darkness. Just like Ventus' heart sleeps in Sora, Vanitas' heart slept in Riku, until Maleficent awoke its power. And what was the result? After that, Riku could take the Kingdom Key from Sora and use his dark suit, one extremely similar to Vanitas'.

Hmmmm..... but if she is doing the same thing to Terra as Riku, and you think Riku's 'true heart' was Vanitas', then wouldn't that mean that someone was also in Terra? I thought Terra simply had his own untapped darkness that she awakened... and if that's so, then where's the proof that it was different for Riku?

 

[gelandporn]

Hm, I hadn't thought of that. Nothing really explains why Xion could take Riku's in the first place, does it? But then again, it never really explains why she can suck memories out of Roxas, either. I mean, we can assume that it's because she has Sora memories inside her already and that created some kind of connection randomly... Unless the Org made her like that on purpose? (A mirror created to reflect Roxas...?) I can't remember.

Yeah, it's really the same reason why Roxas can absorb memories from Sora- they're connected.
The Organization did not create Xion to absorb Sora's memories, but to mimic his power. The absorbtion was an unintended (yet favorable in their case) consequence.

So that presupposes that in order to absorb memories from Riku, Xion would have to have a connection to Riku. And I doubt the connection came from her herself.
You might say that she absorbs Riku's memories simply because Sora knows Riku (ie has memories of him), but if that's the case, why wouldn't she absorb the memories of Axel too?

The reason I don't think Sora was absorbing Riku memories before Xion copied the trick is because Namine seemed surprised to see the Riku memories there, and they appeared right as Snarl of Memories was happening. If Xion was just copying something Sora was doing... then shouldn't some have already been in there?

The question is how she would differentiate between the memories of Riku that were already there and the memories of Riku that were coming from Xion.
Additionally (and I think I said this earlier, too lazy to check), I would argue that, for the memories that were already there, they may have been too deeply ingrained in Sora's heart for Namine to easily find. As she says when referring to memories of Kairi, some are just too deep and out of her reach.
The torment and memories in coded were hidden, so I would naturally think that Riku's memories were buried with them.

But then, wouldn't another painful Snarl have happened in KH2 when they did meet...?

It's unclear what triggered the Snarl in the first place, since it was more than just memories being transferred. Rather, memories were intermingling (hence why Xion became Sora/Roxas/Riku while in Riku's memories). It's not like the two characters meeting is the only requirement, since Xion did not have a Snarl at the time she met Riku at Beast's Castle, or any time after for that matter.

If I'm right, though, there should be more "Snarls" in 3D, hence why, in the trailer, Sora became Riku.

Hmmmm..... but if she is doing the same thing to Terra as Riku, and you think Riku's 'true heart' was Vanitas', then wouldn't that mean that someone was also in Terra? I thought Terra simply had his own untapped darkness that she awakened... and if that's so, then where's the proof that it was different for Riku?

No, she's talking about the dark side of the heart when she refers to the "true heart." And I think that, naturally, if Vanitas wound up in Riku, he would go to the dark side of Riku's heart. Awakening that darkness would have the unintended consequence of drawing forth Vanitas' darkness.

We already have proof that Riku's case was different- the dark suit. Not like Terra got one.

 

[chasespicer056]

Well this is a VERY good theory you've developed. Great job Grass!

 

[xStarSeekerx]

woah! dude once again, ou have come up with an extremely well thought out theory. im totally friggin convinced.

i mean i sorta got the whole pluto is obeying riku. and riku opened the dark corridor in KHI
but waht really got me was the person whistling to pluto in khII, back when it was kairi and axel on the beach.

i thought axel had opend that corridor but now im convinced it's riku.

but im not gettign one thing. if in fact that sora has riku's memories. and data riku is the memories of the book, when did jimniy ever write about riku at the moment in Travese town in KHI. i mean like HOW DID SORA GET THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

and real quickly was riku able to even open dark corridors at that time.

 

[Absolute]

I'd like to think this too, because I like the dynamic it adds... but... I don't know if Vanitas was actually 'destroyed' in that he disappeared. I think perhaps it could be more like, after the battle, that side of Ven's heart was rendered wounded beyond recognition and needed time to heal, rather than cut out completely and missing. Vanitas kind of melted into the floor of the station, after all.

I saw that as Vanitas going back into Ven's heart making it whole and Ven having control over his own heart (shown by his Awakening Pillar being complete and picturing Ven. However, even though his heart was whole, it was still damaged too much to go on and needed to go to Sora.

 

[Memory Master]

I saw that as Vanitas going back into Ven's heart making it whole and Ven having control over his own heart (shown by his Awakening Pillar being complete and picturing Ven. However, even though his heart was whole, it was still damaged too much to go on and needed to go to Sora.

If Vanitas had went back to Ven's heart then Ven's heart would have no longer been one of pure light and thus his body would have dissapeared after his heart left his body and went to Sora. Since Ven's heart remained in a commatose state like Kairi in KH1, then we can assume that like her Ven still had a heart of pure light and thus it is impossible for Vanitas to have gone back to Ven's heart.

So Vanitas was either destroyed completely or when Ven beat him, Vanitas' heart went to someone else, and I really like the idea of that someone being Riku.

 

[Goldpanner]

but im not gettign one thing. if in fact that sora has riku's memories. and data riku is the memories of the book, when did jimniy ever write about riku at the moment in Travese town in KHI. i mean like HOW DID SORA GET THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

http://forums.khinsider.com/spoilers/150809-revelation-rikus-memories-7.html#post5313673

Yeah, it's really the same reason why Roxas can absorb memories from Sora- they're connected.
The Organization did not create Xion to absorb Sora's memories, but to mimic his power. The absorbtion was an unintended (yet favorable in their case) consequence.

So that presupposes that in order to absorb memories from Riku, Xion would have to have a connection to Riku. And I doubt the connection came from her herself.
You might say that she absorbs Riku's memories simply because Sora knows Riku (ie has memories of him), but if that's the case, why wouldn't she absorb the memories of Axel too?

It does make sense, but then again, Xion being connected to Sora and Roxas doesn't really flow with me. I mean, Sora and Roxas are connected because the are two halves of the same person. How does a whole new artificial being get to muscle into that bond...? Eh, KH logic, that's all I can think of.

So, you're proposing that Sora and Riku share those memories because they have both halves of Ven's heart inside them... Lol, so then perhaps Terra and Vani were together inside Riku...

The question is how she would differentiate between the memories of Riku that were already there and the memories of Riku that were coming from Xion.
Additionally (and I think I said this earlier, too lazy to check), I would argue that, for the memories that were already there, they may have been too deeply ingrained in Sora's heart for Namine to easily find. As she says when referring to memories of Kairi, some are just too deep and out of her reach.
The torment and memories in coded were hidden, so I would naturally think that Riku's memories were buried with them.

Hmmm I wonder... did they ever explicitly mention that the ball of torment inside Sora that Nami found was Ven? Or was it meant to be all sorts of random things?

...Maybe this has something to do with how Riku and Kairi were counted as beings that needed saving...

It's unclear what triggered the Snarl in the first place, since it was more than just memories being transferred. Rather, memories were intermingling (hence why Xion became Sora/Roxas/Riku while in Riku's memories). It's not like the two characters meeting is the only requirement, since Xion did not have a Snarl at the time she met Riku at Beast's Castle, or any time after for that matter.

If I'm right, though, there should be more "Snarls" in 3D, hence why, in the trailer, Sora became Riku.

D; scary...

Well in the novels, it seemed to have something to do with Riku actually being at the scene where the Zexion convo took place. He got a vivid memory, then Xion fainted. But then again that doesn't really explain why it happened...

No, she's talking about the dark side of the heart when she refers to the "true heart." And I think that, naturally, if Vanitas wound up in Riku, he would go to the dark side of Riku's heart. Awakening that darkness would have the unintended consequence of drawing forth Vanitas' darkness.

We already have proof that Riku's case was different- the dark suit. Not like Terra got one.

HEY YOU'RE RIGHT

Huhhhhh

Well, I wonder how Vani got in there, then......

 

[Fallen Prince]

This was a great read as I finally had time to absorb it all. Sorry for calling you a god lol, I'm just always blown away whenever i see a Grass theory. But you tie it all together well, and i look forward to more.

 

[Zulkir]

Well, I wonder how Vani got in there, then......

Well, hard to tell, we saw him "melt" into Ven's cleansed awakening.

His heart may have kept going till it reached Riku and went in him, telling him to keep it a secret(till Riku eventually forgot). Or the presence was so weak that it went into Riku without him even knowing.

 

[Radar]

There is so much going on in this thread, I tried reading as many of the posts as I could, then my head started to get a little dizzy. Can someone like sum up the theories that Grass and the others made into bullet points or something? ILU guys.

 

[bryanbryan]

Ahw i can't see the coded videos :/
they're not available anymore.