Revelation of the Unbirth

[Allister Rose]

No, see, I have proof, I just don't know how to present it on a level equivalent to retardation.

must you take me that personally? i havent offended you once? so why must you kick me while i'm down?

it doesn't matter. i'm sure i can keep up.....it said that it was in a position similar to COM, but did it say the circumstances, same terminology and replicas would appear? COM position is losing something while gaining at the same time. Also the quote doesnt really show if it's related to unverse.

 

[gelandporn]

must you take me that personally? i havent offended you once? so why must you kick me while i'm down?

Yes, actually.
Anyone on this site can tell you that, at the very least, I can EXPLAIN and DEFEND a point. But, with you, there's no reasoning.

Why would I bother trying to explain something to someone who, gee, can't even understand an explanation? The majority of times people talk to you about a theory, it ends up being nothing more than wasted breath.
There's a reason why plenty of people end up in shouting matches with your or simply downright ignore what you say, and that's because it's pointless conversing with you. A perfectly good explanation could be offered right in front of your face, and you wouldn't know the difference.

Let's take this quote for example:

it doesn't matter. i'm sure i can keep up.....it said that it was in a position similar to COM, but did it say the circumstances, same terminology and replicas would appear? COM position is losing something while gaining at the same time. Also the quote doesnt really show if it's related to unverse.

The fact that it is in a position similar to CoM makes it so overwhelmingly obvious that coded is the PRELUDE to KH3. Prelude being defined as the events directly preceding and preparing for the next major installment. Despite how it is unnecessary to explicitly state that, you cannot somehow comprehend it.

Additionally, this goes to show how hopelessly confused you are with yourself as you are with my ideas.
When did I offer up that Nomura quote as evidence of a potential connection to replicas/unversed? Never. It concerns coded, not Days/CoM.

The other quote, concerning the connection between Days and BbS, suggests that there are, indeed, multiple connections between the two, thus allowing for potential of replicas being relevant in BbS.

Now, going by your mentality, you'll say something along the lines of, "But it never says anything about the replicas."

Well no SHIT it says nothing about the replicas. This is theorizing, and in case you haven't noticed, we base theories on EVIDENCE and REASONING. If the FACTS were outright presented to us, there would be nothing to theorize ABOUT.

 

[Allister Rose]

we have no proof if coded will lead to the events of kh3.


the theory is very far-fetch, even for someone as slow as me (apparently). coded being similar position to COM is a small evidence since that can be interpreted in many ways. You probably interpreted it as Coded being a prelude to kh3 just as COM to kh2.


and just because days is some-what connected to BBS, doesn't mean replicas will be involved. Replicas hardly hold any true importance, they are just used as puppets. Repliku wasn't so important, COM didnt really need him. same for days and XIon.

Also Tetsuya Nomura wanted to make BBS when making kh2, and then he decided to make two other games after kh2 final mix. I highly doubt it's replicas since BBS was thought up before days.


as to why vexen called Xion a special nobody. it's probably that Xion was the first replica ever made (that we know of apparently). So repliku (being a more recent and upgraded form of replica) could easily have heart while Xion didnt.

replicas being basically a nobody but with 'replicated' memories seems off. that would mean all replicas would look the same and would take human form right or there original form before becoming a nobody with replicated memories (AKA Unverse or unbirth)

Roxas doesn't have a memory heart from ven. Roxas was most likely connected to Sora's heart and allowed him to feel the emotions even though it wasnt inside him, just like how axel was feeling emotions because he was connected to Roxas who was connected to sora's heart.

OR it could be that ROxas attribute 'light' allowed him to have emotions since nobodies wouldn't have light or darkness.

well...let's forget it...i dont want to be insulted. but these were just small points i was looking at when i revised the theory

 

[Reika]

the theory is very far-fetch, even for someone as slow as me (apparently). coded being similar position to COM is a small evidence since that can be interpreted in many ways. You probably interpreted it as Coded being a prelude to kh3 just as COM to kh2.

Of COURSE it can be interpreted in many ways. That's why this is her THEORY, because this is HER interpretation of it. =/ If there was only one way to interpret something, then that would make it fact and we wouldn't have theories to begin with.

 

[Allister Rose]

i meant that it's not so obvious because it can e interpreted many ways...sigh...sometimes it's like there's a biased bunch out there that look out for each other more than looking at the actual argument

 

[Reika]

Personally, I don't agree with her theory. But I can see very well where she got it from. And when did she say it was obvious? o.o
Except that I have no idea who Grace Assassin is. ^^ Guess that fact blows away your theory, eh?

 

[Allister Rose]

you should read the comments a bit more....and what about my theory? you're making no sense.

i was talking to grace assassin, now i'm talking to you.

 

[Reika]

I read page 1 and page 4, which is when you showed up.

...sigh...sometimes it's like there's a biased bunch out there that look out for each other more than looking at the actual argument

And THAT is what my last post replied to. You said that, so I replied, "Except that I have no idea who Grace Assassin is. ^^ Guess that fact blows away your theory, eh?" I was refering to your post as your theory as to what it was I was doing here.

 

[Allister Rose]

I read page 1 and page 4, which is when you showed up.



And THAT is what my last post replied to. You said that, so I replied, "Except that I have no idea who Grace Assassin is. ^^ Guess that fact blows away your theory, eh?" I was refering to your post as your theory as to what it was I was doing here.

wasnt a theory, just an assumption. and i was talking genrally, just you and grace assassin is different. but let's not get into it.

 

[Reika]

I know it's not a theory. I was calling it that out of sarcasm, considering what the topic is. x_x

 

[gelandporn]

we have no proof if coded will lead to the events of kh3.

Hahaha. Yes we do.

the theory is very far-fetch, even for someone as slow as me (apparently). coded being similar position to COM is a small evidence since that can be interpreted in many ways. You probably interpreted it as Coded being a prelude to kh3 just as COM to kh2.

You've forgotten what we're even arguing about.
coded has nothing to do with my theory.

and just because days is some-what connected to BBS, doesn't mean replicas will be involved.

Seriously... Do you even understand the concept of a theory? What you're saying here is so irrelevant, such poor evidence against what I'm saying.

It doesn't mean replicas will be involved. NO. SHIT.
You could say, for ANY theory, that it won't necessarily be true. Because, you know, it's a THEORY. Stop

same for days and XIon.

Xion was a hue part of Days, it's laughable that you think otherwise.

Also Tetsuya Nomura wanted to make BBS when making kh2, and then he decided to make two other games after kh2 final mix. I highly doubt it's replicas since BBS was thought up before days.

No, BbS was started before Days, not thought up. The origin of Days' creation stretches back even before KH2.

as to why vexen called Xion a special nobody. it's probably that Xion was the first replica ever made (that we know of apparently). So repliku (being a more recent and upgraded form of replica) could easily have heart while Xion didnt.

First of all, he calls the REPLICAS special Nobodies, not just Xion.
And second, you're being absolutely retarded.
You're offering your own explanation on why YOU THINK Vexen called them Special Nobodies. NO ONE CARES. Giving us your own ideas about it to try and contradict my own does NOTHING. I don't understand how you seem to be unable to understand that.

replicas being basically a nobody but with 'replicated' memories seems off. that would mean all replicas would look the same and would take human form right or there original form before becoming a nobody with replicated memories (AKA Unverse or unbirth)

What?

Roxas doesn't have a memory heart from ven. Roxas was most likely connected to Sora's heart and allowed him to feel the emotions even though it wasnt inside him, just like how axel was feeling emotions because he was connected to Roxas who was connected to sora's heart.

No one cares about your ideas.

OR it could be that ROxas attribute 'light' allowed him to have emotions since nobodies wouldn't have light or darkness.

No one cares about your ideas.

well...let's forget it...i dont want to be insulted. but these were just small points i was looking at when i revised the theory

You deserve to be. If you won't stop what you're doing through any other means, then you should be insulted for being ignorant.

Of COURSE it can be interpreted in many ways. That's why this is her THEORY, because this is HER interpretation of it. =/ If there was only one way to interpret something, then that would make it fact and we wouldn't have theories to begin with.

Thank you, though I'm a guy. xD

The sad thing is that Allister has no idea what she's talking about.
I don't say this out of animosity.
She's talking as if she's, what, trying to offer evidence against my theory. I enjoy when my theories are being scrutinized. But that is not what she's doing.

Allister, the only thing you're doing is, as I see it, trying to refute what I say in any way possible, rational or not.
You're just being argumentative and you cannot even see why. You continue to debate about nothing.

 

[RememberRoxas]

You know, this is the only theory i've TRULY kept up with.Why?It has pictures to unconfuse me.

 

[thylings]

This is an amazing theory. One of the best I've read.

 

[Allister Rose]

First of all, he calls the REPLICAS special Nobodies, not just Xion.
And second, you're being absolutely retarded.
You're offering your own explanation on why YOU THINK Vexen called them Special Nobodies. NO ONE CARES. Giving us your own ideas about it to try and contradict my own does NOTHING. I don't understand how you seem to be unable to understand that.

not really, she was imperfect remember, she was flawed, missing something that made her a true replica like repliku. too many far-fetch ideas. you say you back yourself up but you never once proved it right. you only claim it was true without any reason. you claim i'm ignorant and that my ideas dont contradict yours. but you havent really proved much, you only declare that you do.

 

[Ven-Dono]

You'll see why this is in the Days spoiler section momentarily. I'd like to say beforehand that, by the time you're done reading this, you'll know what the Unbirths are, what state of being MX is in, and why Roxas looks like Ven, among other things which I may add later. Some of this is rehashed/revised from what I've previously said

So to start, let's check on enemy symbolism. Yes, I already know there are literally three or so other topics on this currently in the FoKH section but, to be honest, that's where my inspiration came from. I decided to examine the enemy symbols (more or less for shits and giggles at first), but ended up discovering something.

1. Heartless

The heart portion of the symbol is very obvious to decipher. It represents a heart shackled in darkness. But look at the bottom. How it branched off. Why? Why wouldn't it just be a shackled heart?
Well, I for one was immediately reminded of a fleur de lis:

Now, a fleur de lis is often indicative of some sort of trinity. This is not the first time we've come across such a thing in the KH series:

The three "prongs" on the Heartless symbol definitely aren't referring to the Heartless, Nobody, and whole being though, that's a given.
With that in mind, what could this triumvirate represent? I don't think I even need to say.
The trinity of the being. Heart, body, and soul.

2. Nobodies

Something should have struck you as odd with the Nobody symbol. It's clearly got a heart in there rather than, say, a symbol for the soul and/or body. This may reveal the nature of the three symbols; that, instead of the symbol just showing what the enemy is, it shows the enemies connection to the heart. The Heartless symbol is a full, generic heart (aside from the three prongs), so one could say it has a direct connection to the heart.

When we look at the Nobody symbol, we first notice how it's rotated 180 degrees, which reflects the whole "another you" spiel.

Flipping it right-side up for demonstration purposes:

You might be able to spot a similarity in common with the Heartless symbol. It has a main "Heart" symbol connected at what would be the apex with three prongs. Now we're on a roll.

Nomura described the symbol as a "splintered Heart," and that's exactly how the connection goes. Notice the circular pieces missing between the prongs. The connection between them (the body, soul, and heart) has diminished and, therefore, the body and soul suffer (they become non-existent). On the Heartless symbol, the prongs are still in-tact because the Heartless does not suffer this incapacity since the heart is the source of all power. It's just shedding extra weight. You should note that while the connection to the heart is faint for Nobodies, it's still there.

Filling in the holes:

(Did this quickly, don't care)

We can see how close it is to the Heartless symbol. The main difference is the proportion between the prongs and the heart. The heart is going to be smaller since the connection is diminished and the prongs are going to be larger since Nobodies are only bodies and souls.

And finally...

3. Unbirths

Something's not right here. Seriously not right.

Is there a heart in this symbol? You might think so, but there is not. Rather, the symbol structure gives the impression that there is a heart in that negative space. And we know what symbol is making the impression of the heart:

That symbol represents memories. Memories (or fractured memories, considering how the symbol is snapped and bent over) create the impression of a Heart. Sound familiar? Well, hey, that's what Nobodies do! But am I suggesting that the Unbirths are just some sort of... precursor to the Nobodies? Of course not, there's much more to it than that.

We've examined the "Heart" piece of the Unbirth symbol, but what about the prongs? They don't seem to appear in this symbol. Or maybe they do...

It's just that there's only two prongs. The middle is mysteriously absent. Given the fact that the Heart is not actually there, I would say that the missing middle prong was supposed to be the Heart.

So what does this say about the Unbirth? First, as I said, they have no heart (technically; I'll get back to that). But unlike the Nobodies, they have zero connection to a heart. Suffice it to say that these beings never had a heart.

Do we know of a being that is similar to a Nobody already? Actually, we do.



The replicas.
Hold up, GA, the replicas have hearts!
... Do they?

Let me ask you two questions: Why would Vexen call the replicas "special Nobodies" if they were technically complete beings? Since when did Organization XIII learn how to create hearts?

While the exact process of cloning is unknown, we know the start of it. The Organization has used memories to create the replicas. If they could use memories to create hearts, why wouldn't they simply make replicas of their own hearts using their memories?

That's because they can't. When making replicas, they do the next best thing.



Heart... no form, memories... form heart. Memories can act as a surrogate for a true heart. They can be made into an artificial heart.

That's what the replicas have. No hearts just bodies, souls, and memories to act as a heart.
And that's what the Unbirths are. Bodies and souls infused with fragments of replicated memory.

Where do the bodies and souls come from? Well, before the Heartless, when the heart is swallowed by darkness, the body and soul do not disappear because there are no Nobodies. Xehanort stores these bodies and souls in the castle basement. We could probably infer that they would be similar to the state Kairi was in (she was, after all, branded as a puppet [like a "doll"]). Without a heart, someone loses their identity, their "proof of life." So if they were instilled with memories and those memories took the shape of a heart, then their being would reflect that identity.

Still, you gotta wonder, where did the body and soul for Repliku and Xion come from? My guess would be that they still have left over bodies down in the basement. The question is... did they use generic dolls from the no one particularly important... or perhaps someone we know?

Can these replicas feel? I'm sure they can since they do have a "heart," though, as even Repliku has said, there's an overwhelming sense of feeling "empty."

It brings light to the condition of the Nobodies as well.
As Nomura has said, "In order to assume a new existence, information about their own personal circumstances must first be gathered. A Nobody's main characteristic is that without a heart they use memories to form the parts of a personality and emotions. For them, memories have become an essential element."

He has recently brought up the question of whether or not all Nobodies (not just Roxas) have hearts in the Days Ultimania. I think we have our answer. They don't. None of them do. But the memories can act as a "heart," like with the replicas. The stronger their ties are with the chain of memories, the stronger they can feel. Rather than feigning emotion on a superficial level based on memory or trying to reject those feelings altogether, some Nobodies, when having a bond with their heart through memories that tie the two together, can experience emotion. It explains Axel. And Namine. And Roxas.

Roxas. Ven's Heart? No. Ven's memories? Yes. When Ven was erased, his heart didn't go inside Sora. His memories did. And then Roxas was born. A body and soul imbibed with the memories of another. And he looks just like Ven. Sounds like an Unbirth. But no, Roxas is a Nobody (he is, after all, born from nothingness as the remnant of a lost heart). A very, very special Nobody. Born under the conditions of a Nobody, but definably an Unbirth.

I should stop for a moment and emphasize the two ways in which we've seen memories used by these beings. They act like a heart and can connect to other hearts.

Let's use Roxas as an example.
He starts of without memories of Sora, but contains a "Memory Heart" from Ven. Since the chain of memories in this "heart" are not connected to anyone else, they are isolated. Moreover, he cannot remember Ven because these memories act as a heart rather than normal memories (you'll notice how Repliku initially didn't have Riku's memories, but later was forced to have them). Roxas cannot experience emotion despite having a Memory Heart (I'll just call it that for now on). Gradually, the chains create bonds with Axel (and Xion), allowing him to feel. One memory heart can connect to another memory heart. And his memory heart can obviously connect to a real heart as well, whether it's Sora or Kairi.

So, some Organization members choose not to make new bonds to strengthen their emotion (meaning their memory heart becomes stagnant), others do.

Now that we know just exactly how special Roxas is as a Nobody, what about Xemnas? Nomura has suggested he's special too. And here's my explanation:



MX is an Unbirth. I would guess that whoever is the original is going around, taking out people's hearts, and shoving in replicated fragments of his dark memories to create Unbirths (so Unbirth that look the same are based on the same memory). Or maybe MX himself is doing it, being the most superior replica. Either way, it's two birds with one stone. You get a heart and make an Unbirth.

Well I think that's enough for now. I have more to say, so I'll probably go back and edited this within the next few days or so (concerning things such as dual wielding, more on Xehanort, etc).

Basically flawless in my opinion.

Something I wondered though, is that if MX had no real heart, why could he wield a keyblade.

Nomura says, "There isn't necessarily one keyblade for the dark side and one for the light side, just as many as there exist people with qualified hearts. Concerning the conditions to wield one, at this stage, "Those with strong hearts" is the only obvious one. However, less obvious conditions still exist and there are still plans for an opportunity to reveal those. Riku's "Way to the Dawn" and Kairi's keyblade are naturally the same type of keyblade as Sora's. However there is no particular explanation for the Soul Eater's transfer and occurence, as well as Riku's handing it to Kairi. When there isn't a normal process of acquisition, I think its ok to think there is some deeper meaning there.", in Another Report.

So unless his Keyblade is fake in the way Xion's, that discredits that.

Although, look at it this way. If his keyblade is fake, and he wants a real one, he would probably do something quite dastardly in order to get a real keyblade. (Cough summon Kingdom Hearts and destroy innocent people by doing so EndCough)