Proof of Existence



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DarkosOverlord

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Pretty sure this is not an uncommon thread, but I'd like to hear anyone's opinions on the Proof of Existence, the area in KH II where all the (destroyed) portals for the Organization's personal chambers where located.

Namely, two things piqued my interest: the fact that it's called Proof of Existence, when the reward for defeating all of the Organization Data is the Proof of Nonexistence, and the fact that Zexion's weapon sign is the only one damaged beyond repair.
Also considering that Zexion's weapon is a book which shows and materializes illusions, and we all saw how important these items are for the lore now...

Any thoughts or theories about any of this?
(Forgive me if I don't post a picture, can't quite find a nice one.)
 

hemmoheikkinen

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I think when you enter the area Kairi comments how it feels like a graveyard. A good chunk of the Nobodies were plagued by a question of existence. "If we don´t have hearts, can we truly exist?" I guess a graveyard, which has a gravestone and each stone has a symbol of an organization members weapon and title was meant to be a "proof" that those individuals certainly existed. If they have a grave, then surely someone must have existed.

Why Zexion´s gravestone was destroyed, Nomura gave an answer to that in one of his interviews in the Ultimania:

---Looks like Zexion has a lot of fans.
Nomura: Probably because he's quite enigmatic. He's the only member who showed up with no weapons but it's not because he doesn't have his own weapon, it's more of because he died without fighting so nobody knows what's his weapon. I have an idea on what his weapon is and I might have a chance of showing it in the near future so I'll keep it as a secret for now. That reminds me, in the World that Never Was, each XIII Organization member had a gravestone for them and each of those have a picture of their weapons and that's when Zexion became a problem for us. "Eh, we're gonna put a spoiler on Zexion's weapon there!?" (laugh) That's a bit too much so we decided to destroy the gravestone so that his weapon couldn't be seen.

I like the little detail in Roxas grave stone. It`s still blue and signaling that the person is still alive to some degree.

Proof on non-existence could mean, that since you only unlock the data fights after you have defeated the real organization members, it really is a proof that these individuals do not exist. You have defeated the real ones, and the data forms which only appear after that are the proof.
 
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DarkosOverlord

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I think when you enter the area Kairi comments how it feels like a graveyard. A good chunk of the Nobodies were plagued by a question of existence. "If we don´t have hearts, can we truly exist?" I guess a graveyard, which has a gravestone and each stone has a symbol of an organization members weapon and title was meant to be a "proof" that those individuals certainly existed. If they have a grave, then surely some must have existed.

Why Zexion´s gravestone was destroyed, Nomura gave an answer to that in one his interviews in the Ultimania:



I like the little detail in Roxas grave stone. It`s still blue and signaling that the person is still alive to some degree.

Proof on non-existence could mean, that since you only unlock the data fights after you have defeated the real organization members, it really is a proof that these individuals do not exist. You have defeated the real ones, and the data forms which only appear after that are the proof.
Ok, so he did say something about that (I really wish so much about the games wasn't said in interviews, it's so annoying to keep up. Thanks for the info).
Mh, it kinda seems like an excuse, but it'll do for now I guess. And even if it is true, that seems a lot of work just from keeping a weapon concealed, mhhh.

Yeah, I liked that part about Roxas too. I also wish we could've seen more chambers, but it's whatever.
 

Blackdrazon

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In my KH2 Retrospective, I said:

Together, you proceed with the party to a place called “The Proof of Existence.” This is a truly interesting room, one of my favourites. Many of you will probably be familiar with the concept of “memento mori,” an artistic concept designed to remind that the viewer is mortal and will one day die. The Nobodies, however, require an opposite reminder, a memento vivre (someone correct my Latin – I’m just talking French out my ass), a reminder that Nobodies exist and can still impact the world. To drive the connection home, these mementos are just as morbid as any memento mori: a series of tombstones-like arches marked with each member’s weapons and titles.
Then, adopting the tone I use when a mystery is explained by a later game, I added:

Oddly, Xemnas doesn’t seem to feel the need to have an effigy of his own…
That basically encompasses my thoughts.
 

hemmoheikkinen

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Ok, so he did say something about that (I really wish so much about the games wasn't said in interviews, it's so annoying to keep up. Thanks for the info).
Mh, it kinda seems like an excuse, but it'll do for now I guess. And even if it is true, that seems a lot of work just from keeping a weapon concealed, mhhh.

Yeah, I liked that part about Roxas too. I also wish we could've seen more chambers, but it's whatever.
You are welcome!



Yeah, it would save us time and trouble if Nomura would explain these things in the games, but I have to admit that part of me enjoys the "detective work" that is needed when you have to search for a right interview for your answer.



Then, adopting the tone I use when a mystery is explained by a later game, I added:


Oddly, Xemnas doesn’t seem to feel the need to have an effigy of his own…


That basically encompasses my thoughts.
Dam... I have never thought about that. It`s a very interesting detail. Guess the Superior thought he was gonna last longer than his comrades, or ever eternally since at the end of KH2 before you fight him, he links himself to nothingness, which lasts forever, so of course he would also last forever too. Or it goes back to Master Xehanorts mentality of avoiding death and becoming an immortal god.
 

VoidGear.

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Welp, tbh I always just thought
Proof of existence: Proof they existed.
Proof of non-existence: Proof you eradicated all of them.
:X
Also it's obviously a reference to that whole "nobodies don't exist" yadda-yadda.
 

catcake

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So Zexion actually has a weapon besides his weird book? Interesting, I hope we'll get to see it someday.
 

hemmoheikkinen

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Okay so that comment from Nomura was before FM? Alright, makes sense.
Yup, that comment is from February 2006, and the FM was released in Japan 2007. I should have added the date there too to avoid confusion when I quoted that interview.
 

DarkosOverlord

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Yeah, that was probably from before that. I still think it holds some secrets, but without evidence that's as far as I go.

In my KH2 Retrospective, I said:



Then, adopting the tone I use when a mystery is explained by a later game, I added:



That basically encompasses my thoughts.
Well, Xemnas was probably always aware his defeat wouldn't make him disappear forever, he didn't deem necessary to have one. Also I think he's always at the summit or Where Nothing Gathers, I doubt he even has a bed.
I wonder if those portals all led to "empty" rooms like that. I always thought Roxas's portal led to his room in Days, don't know why.

You are welcome!



Yeah, it would save us time and trouble if Nomura would explain these things in the games, but I have to admit that part of me enjoys the "detective work" that is needed when you have to search for a right interview for your answer.
I also do but... ugh, there's always something that slips by.

Dam... I have never thought about that. It`s a very interesting detail. Guess the Superior thought he was gonna last longer than his comrades, or ever eternally since at the end of KH2 before you fight him, he links himself to nothingness, which lasts forever, so of course he would also last forever too. Or it goes back to Master Xehanorts mentality of avoiding death and becoming an immortal god.
If I'm not mistaken, Nomura said he might've had a Keyblade, but didn't use it for reasons. I think he was always aware of the "other" plan, hence why he didn't bother for a memorial nor fighting at full strenght: everything was almost a game for him, and by the time Sora arrived at him in KH II, the plan already failed.
He was pretending and playing the entire time.

Welp, tbh I always just thought
Proof of existence: Proof they existed.
Proof of non-existence: Proof you eradicated all of them.
:X
Also it's obviously a reference to that whole "nobodies don't exist" yadda-yadda.
Fair enough.
I probably read more into it since I think the Crown Proofs have some ulterior meaning.
 

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Well, Xemnas was probably always aware his defeat wouldn't make him disappear forever, he didn't deem necessary to have one. Also I think he's always at the summit or Where Nothing Gathers, I doubt he even has a bed.
Fun little tidbit, if you look closely above the door out of Proof of Existence, at the veeeery tippity top of that threshold border design, you see a little Roman numeral I, very like the ones you see on all the "tombstones". And of course that doorway leads right (by extension, sure) to Xemnas's tower.

I wonder if those portals all led to "empty" rooms like that. I always thought Roxas's portal led to his room in Days, don't know why.
I somehow got this same impression at some point. I think my later theory was they take you to wherever the respective member is "residing" in the castle, or like, wherever they might want to bring you, or some such thing like that. So not always a bedroom, but at least a room they are calling theirs for a given moment. (I always dreamed of going through these, and fighting Vexen in a lab, and Zexion in a library)
 

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I kinda feel as since they are data, the "data" needs something to replicate thus is why his weapon is the way it is.


It would have been better if they added Xion though, right next to Roxas' or something.
 

Divine Past

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Bionic Puppy

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Can I say I LOVE the titles of The World That Never Was SOOO MUCH

What I love about the whole Proof of Existance/Nonexsistance thing is that it wasn't talking about Sora or Riku or anyone else, not even Ansem. It was talking about the Nobodies. They shouldn't, and don't, exist. Their hearts are the only proof that they are alive, as they cannot handle their "death" or loss of heart. I can't say much for Luxord (who can?) Apart from that I CALL THAT HE'S ANSEMS NOBODY SO FREAKING HARD. But Saix was desperate for a heart, he wanted proof of his existance.

Well the Zexion thing may be just a little cop out from Nomura, but I found its cruelly ironic. The one person who had been working with the Organization with no ulterior goals (Lexaeus could be described as this also, but he followed Zexion in a lot of cases) had their "Tombstone"destroyed.

But I did love the place as a whole. It was a really nice way to end it and Organisation XIII battles are my favourite battles and The World That Never Was is my favourite world so it was a PERFECT sendoff for me before some drama~
 
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