Perceived Kingdom Hearts Plot Complexity - A Complaint

[Faust]

Soup /KHi/?

So I've lurked here on and off for years but rarely, if ever, made an account and posted. I plan on being more active but that's still to be determined.

This isn't a troll. Promise.

Neither is this a complaint about the complexity of the plot of Kingdom Hearts. It's a general complaint about the the perceived complexity of the series. As a fan of the series, I find it not that complex. The problem lies in plot holes intentionally left by Nomura to feed further interest in the series. By the series conclusion, I sincerely believe there won't be near as many "mind freak" adjectives tied to the series as are currently.

Relative to stories such as Neon Genesis Evangelion. This is a series which is complete and after fifteen years is still being debated on exactly what it means and what happens on each level of the show. Each level being the straightforward plot and the other levels being those of motifs, metaphors, themes and general message of the show.

Yes, I am a huge fan of the series, however, I'm not a fan who thrusts the complex nature of the show because I'm a fan but rather, a fan because I see it as a complex and deep entity (whether intentionally or not - that's another discussion entirely).

So, to you fans who truly believe Kingdom Hearts is a complex series, I argue that it isn't complex as it is left intentionally empty to feed more interest for future games and is ultimately a victim of extreme retconning.

I'd also like to note that this isn't a judgement on the series - simply, my observation of what Kingdom Hearts is, for better or worse. I am a huge fan of Kingdom Hearts and have beaten and played all the games released so far. My problem isn't with the game but with the perceived complexity of the plot.

Not bad for a first post (on this account), eh?

 

[Ronove]

Well, to me at least, Neon Genesis Evangelion also isn't exactly "complex" so much as it is "filled with plot holes and faux-symbolism." Anno himself admitted that he threw in a bunch of Judeo-Christian symbols into the show because it "looked cool". Now, that's my take on it, but you and many other Neon Genesis Fans will of course beg to differ.

But moving beyond that, if you've ever had the.... "fortune" of visiting 4chan, specifically /v/, you'll realize that the complexity of Kingdom Hearts is not a term used by its fans so much as its detractors. Sure, there's a ton of us who think the story can be pretty complex or DEEP, but by and large when you see somehow calling Kingdom Hearts complex it probably is being used in a negative connotation.

However, I'll at least try to tell you why I think the series is worthy to be called complex. First off, Sora's connection to Ven, Xion, Roxas, and Vanitas. It's explainable, but it's still complex. I can tell you how Sora is related to number 14 of Organization 13, and why there is a number 14 to Organization 13, and despite how crazy such a plot point sounds it is indeed explainable. However, much like an electric system, just because the plot functions by no means removes the complexity.

You're painting an image of Kingdom Hearts as a series filled with retcons and plot holes. I'd argue that it doesn't have as many of those as you may think. There's foreshadowing to every plot point in the series, and while there are things mentioned that we don't get the full details of, they serve their purpose. Like Xehanort and the apprentices, we don't know specifically what went down, but we know the end results that went down. Kingdom Hearts doesn't have plot holes as much as it has areas for expansions. It's functional, it's relevant, there's never a moment where something happens that lacks explanation barring the super deluxe ultra secret bosses, but the moments we are told about can indeed pop up in later games.

So, I think the series is complex. It deals with identity issues and loss of self pretty well.

Of course, I can see why someone would differ with me. Fiction is always going to be subjective, you love Neon Genesis Evangelion and say it is amazingly complex and thought provoking, I think of it as a GRIMDARK faux-intellectual mecha deconstruction. To each their own, as our personal values and perceptions will always affect how we judge a piece of fiction.

But I will say as a final thought that I think it is fair for people to claim a level of complexity to Kingdom Hearts.

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

If all of your posts are like this one, then you are welcome to say whatever you like here

Anyways, like Ronove said, it isn't so much the fans calling Kingdom Hearts "complex", it is those who don't really attempt to keep up with the game. It is complex in how many elements were added to the series, but it is no less confusing than any other series is (i.e. Metal Gear Solid.)

I also get pretty bothered with the complaints of people thinking Kingdom Hearts is complex. Once you play the games, it is pretty easy to understand.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Agreed with Ronove,
also, if these plot holes are left there "intentionally" as you say it isn't retconning but withholding certain information on purpose.

Nomura also said he likes to left some things open for the fans to speculate on.
I'm also a huge fan of NGE but I see that they both have the same "problem" at the core...one needs to see the entire thing to understand and built upon the "complexity" to realize it isn't that much complex at all.

I also tend to believe there's often a misunderstanding between complexity and complicating, as Kingdom Hearts is complicated on the first sight as well as NGE is.
One has to actively think and pay close attention to grasp all necessary Information and then piece them together. If you can do that, it isn't complicated anymore, yet still many people don't seem to bother doing those two things and therefore they label KH as "too complex" or "mind-f*ck".

So, while I maintain KH is complex on some layers, it isn't "too complex"...

Edit:
Touché to Lycoris....she summed up my long rant pretty neatly...
*must learn not to flesh out everything that detailed...lol*

 

[gelandporn]

Actually, I wrote an article on this a few months back on KHU.

Kingdumb Smart

Is Kingdom Hearts becoming too complicated? Fans seem to be divided over whether the series’ ever increasing complexity is smart, or actually dumb.

Looking to the fandom for an answer, you’ll see the word “convoluted” being thrown around Kingdom Hearts boards frequently nowadays. Some have even gone as far to suggest that the story of Kingdom Hearts has become as convoluted as, or even exceeded, such infamously complicated series as Metal Gear Solid. But is this the case? If so, should us fans be worried?
Back to Square One

To get some perspective on the issue, let’s start back at square one. With the release of the first Kingdom Hearts, I think we’d all agree that the plot was fairly straightforward. A boy goes on a quest to save his friends with a magical weapon, the Keyblade, all while felling dark creatures called Heartless. Simple enough. Then through Chain of Memories and Kingdom Hearts II, the mythos was expanded to include such plot devices as false memories and a new enemy, the Nobodies.

The latest entry in the series, Birth by Sleep, continues this pattern, as it naturally should, with the introduction of the Unversed, and some surprising revelations. What is at issue here isn’t the fact that the mythos is being expanded, but how it’s being expanded. If we were to take the principle of Occam’s Razor, in which the simplest explanation is regarded as the best, and held it up to Kingdom Hearts… let’s just say that there would certainly be quite a bit of fat that razor would have to trim.

Take a look at the most egregious violations of that principle- the series’ protagonist, Sora, and the antagonist, Xehanort.
[Warning: Birth by Sleep spoilers!]
Timeline of Sora

* Sora (KH1): So there’s this boy
* Sora (KH2): who splits into this other boy
* Sora (Days): that spends his time with a clone of the original boy who looks like the girl the boy likes.
* Sora (BbS): But wait! The other boy looks just like a boy from ten years ago who has another half who looks like the original boy.

Timeline of Xehanort

* Xehanort (KH1): Some guy who possesses a young guy, who ends up looking just like the guy.
* Xehanort (KH2): But this guy is actually part of another guy who is the apprentice of an old guy that goes by the same name. Oh, and the other half of the guy is running around too.
* Xehanort (Birth by Sleep): When those two halves of the guy were one guy, though, even the original guy was actually made from yet another old guy possessing yet another young guy.

What’s wrong with this? Well, when you need a flow chart just to keep track of all the derivatives of your two main characters, something’s not right. Note here that I’m not arguing, like some have, that Kingdom Hearts “doesn’t make sense.” But it feels as though the series is becoming more and more complex just for the sake of being complex, which doesn’t add any real depth, only a superficial semblance of it. In other words, the series is trying too hard to be smart, but ends up looking dumb.

Even worse than that, the convolusion is making it harder for new fans to hop on to the series’ bandwagon. Any diehard fan of the series should have no problem differentiating Ven from Roxas, or Master Xehanort from Xehanort the Apprentice.

But someone who’s looking into Kingdom Hearts now has to digest all of this information at once, which, going back to the examples of Sora and Xehanort, can be both daunting and unappealing. It’s becoming a series that isn’t even remotely easy to jump into.
Kingdom Hearts 4: Revenge of the Spleen

And you have to ask: Where do we draw the line? If it isn’t already too intricate, then what is? What if we found out in KH3 that Master Xehanort was actually the roommate of the real Xehanort? What if in KH4 we found out that the roommate of Xehanort was actually made from the spleen of another man?

Also bear in mind that this is not an attack on any of the characters. For instance, I loved Ven as a character, but as a plot device? Eh. Simple enough to understand his role within Birth by Sleep, but when examining the larger context of the series, he just makes things that more complicated.

And that’s not even taking into account all of the smaller plot holes. When you have a story that grows this complex, there’s bound to be some holes that pop up out of negligence or some other reason.

For example, how come Donald and Goofy don’t recognize Yen Sid’s tower in KH2 when they were there in BbS? Or, Why does Ienzo appear to age so much when the apprentices were supposed to have given up their hearts a year after BbS (knowing that Nomura said Nobodies don’t age)? Don’t even get me started on Roxas and Naminè’s births..

These are negligible, to be sure, and taken by themselves, they’re no big deal whatsoever. But what these holes lack in scope, they make up for in number. Kingdom Hearts is in danger of creating a Kudzu Plot. The more you think about the series, the more of these dangling plot threads you find.

It’s like if Grandma made you a sweater for Christmas. At first, you think it’s perfect. But then you notice a dangling thread here, a dangling thread there, and before you know it, the sweater is unraveling at the seams! Goddammit, Grandma!
So what’s a Kingdom Hearts fan to do?

Well, if you’ve made it this far with the series, there’s some merit in that. Clearly, the complexity hasn’t become so much of an issue that fans are dropping like flies. Kingdom Heart’s strong fan base is a testament to the fact that it is, indeed, a great series, despite its faults.

And there’s hope for us yet! Even Nomura has admitted, in a recent Famitsu interview, that “the story thus far has extended too much” and that in Kingdom Hearts 3D it would “be good to bring it together plainly for a moment.” By no means, then, has the complexity gone past the point of no return.

Going back to the comparison to the Metal Gear Solid series, Metal Gear Solid 4, while universally acclaimed, was also lambasted for its complexity. The latest in the series, Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker, returned to a simpler style of storytelling.Maybe KH3D will be our Peace Walker, with Kingdom Hearts returning to its roots: A story that isn’t so simple that it’s dumb, yet also a story that doesn’t blanket itself in a veil of “smart.”

Whether or not Tetsuya Nomura continues on the route of complexity, one thing is certain: From that complexity one universal axiom has emerged.

Has Kingdom Hearts become too complicated? - Kingdom Hearts Ultimania

That's basically my thoughts on the issue.

 

[Magnum]

I actually don't mind the complex storyline and it isn't really that hard to understand either.

 

[XIII Heartless]

I'd advise anyone who isn't already a fan to play the games in chronological order. I did before Coded came out (beat BBS and proceeded to play the rest of the series in order), and once I'd beaten Re: Coded, I felt like I'd gotten to the end of a long book/movie. And there were very few plot holes; only room for some questions to be answered.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I'd advise anyone who isn't already a fan to play the games in chronological order. I did before Coded came out (beat BBS and proceeded to play the rest of the series in order), and once I'd beaten Re: Coded, I felt like I'd gotten to the end of a long book/movie. And there were very few plot holes; only room for some questions to be answered.

That's actually a neat idea for anyone who wants to really get into the series.
As not all people may have all systems to buy every game, they should probably check the video archives of KH13.com or KHvids and read the Ansem Reports for some more background info.

As Kingdom Hearts is a series where every entry is a part of the same story, unlike some other RPG series it isn't advised to be for the "casual quick gamer" anyways.
To take the comparison to Neon Genesis Evangelion again, in this series a newcomer also wouldn't start with i.e. Episode 19 and then wonder why stuff is happening.

 

[Maxyli138]

I played the games in the order they came out.

When first playing the game, I was a bit confused from all the plot holes and unexplained events. But of course that just made me want to play the games even more. And now that I've played all the games, it makes a lot more sense to me and doesn't seem as complicated. So I guess it comes down to how much you know or learned and how much you can figure out on your own that will determine if you think Kingdom Hearts is complex or not. It's all how you look at it.

Now the most complicated part of Kingdom Hearts is trying to explain it to my friends. Sadly it's not as popular in my generation.

 

[Ulicies]

"It’s like if Grandma made you a sweater for Christmas. At first, you think it’s perfect. But then you notice a dangling thread here, a dangling thread there, and before you know it, the sweater is unraveling at the seams! Goddammit, Grandma!
So what’s a Kingdom Hearts fan to do?"

I laughed really hard at this. That was a very entertaining and well-written blog. I agree that sometimes there's the risk of adding all of these new ropes to the storyline just for the sake of making it complex. Thankfully, I believe I heard Nomura say that he's going to end this whole Xehanort storyline after KH3. I can't remember if he said he had plans for more Kingdom Hearts after resolving the Xehanort plot, but I certainly hope he does.

 

[Chrono Mizaki]

I argue that the franchise is becoming increasingly confusing and covered in a blanket of pretend smart, so much that it will discriminate any newcomers who want to take an interest in the series. However, I am on board with Birth by Sleep when it came to continuity. Birth by Sleep on its own, is a great game that does not drown anyone with continuity and let people predict the future. But when we put Birth by Sleep with other games, then yeeaaah, it bumped into a lot of plot holes. And that isn't counting that it has continuity problem of its own when it comes to the order of the world across tree characters.

But still, I argue BBS did things a lot better than say, KH2 or Days.

However, it is too late. Kingdom Hearts as a whole is terrible in its storyline continuity. You can argue about symbolism and foreshadowing, but it doesn't do jack squat if people just don't get it and... still don't get it when the next game comes out.

As a whole. I enjoy Kingdom Hearts apart from those few titles. But fuck you if you do not think there isn't anything wrong with how the franchise is turning with its storyline and continuity.

 

[TotemoOishii]

I don't think I would have liked KH if it was too straight forward. The mystery and unanswered questions are some of the most fun parts of KH cause they leave you thinking 'What will happen next?' I also like how the game makes you think in a different way, which may be in part because it's made by a Japanese company. I think some fans are just frustrated so they are throwing words like 'complicated' and 'convoluted' just to release their agitation. I can somewhat share in this frustration, but not towards the series. I can't tell you how tired I am of seeing "When is KH3 coming out?"

But with as many unanswered questions there are, there are even more questions we have had answered. So I'm not too worried about the complexity because I can tell the game is well thought out and they will resolve all these questions. Of course, it doesn't help when Tetsuya Nomura releases confounding images (the pretty boy shower just haunts me) and speaks so vaguely that you shout "What does it mean?!" I don't blame him though because I would probably do the same thing in his shoes, if not worse XD

 

[Faust]

Here's my thing guys, I think that KH 1 was fully planned and that KH 2 was partially planned. The deep dive proves that there were at least concepts on a second plot - likely more than just concepts.

However, I also strongly believe that they hadn't fledged the story out to the seemingly supermassive point of where it is now - Hence the need for the reconning. I'm not condemning retconning, just making an observation. My point is that, I've read posts on here about how it's a "mindfreak" and so complex and difficult to understand and I simply disagree.

I used Neon Genesis in comparative analysis. I'm fully aware that the religious symbolism didn't mean anything deep, other than as a plot device and cool designs. I mean the difficulty in actually understanding the story (Especially the ending) and one reason I believe NGE is different from KH in that the complexity was intended is that NGE has been over for 15 years yet there's still this debate. KH, I believe, isn't intentionally complex as much as it is Nomura and Square leaving room to write or rewrite the plot while the story is still on-going. I think that's a key difference whereas Evangelion is intentionally complex and works on both the psychological aspects as well as the actual storyline - which in and of itself - has a debatable plot.

It's like the last scene in EoE (if you even consider that canon) or Heck, the last episodes in the series. There are many different theories on exactly what happens and how it concludes. In EoE, Asuka's last spoken line potentially alters the very nature of her and Shinji's relationship's past, present and future depending on how you interpret it. Which in turn can alter your perception of some of the off-screen action.

That, to me, is complex. Yeah, there are arguments that Anno did it simply to create a wild goose chase and he likely did - but it's no less complex.

But I digress, I'm just saying that I believe that man KH fans and detractors using the "mind freak" qualifier to describe KH is, to me, a little much and that's why I started this topic hahaha

Edit: and maybe I'm splitting hairs here (or starting a good conversation <3) because I'm not saying th plot is simplistic by any means. With all the theories floating around and all the possibilities, Nomura has certainly crafted a plot that has kept us guessing. Honestly, I remember back before KH 2 came out and all the cool theories I read that ended up being way better than what actually ended up happening.

While Kingdom Hearts certainly requires some measure of thought, it's just not mind fuck level, in my opinion.

 

[Ronove]

It seems to me that you are mistaking intentional vagueness and subjectivity for complexity. A puzzle may be complex, that doesn't mean that it still doesn't have one solution.

Likewise, Kingdom Hearts may be a bit challenging to understand, but it does have definitive answers.

Neon Genesis Evangelion has a ton of plot points up to debate, that's not an issue of complexity so much as it is an issue of vagueness.

It's semantics to a large extent, but I refer once more to my electric system analogy - Something can be very complex and yet still function/ fulfill its purpose.

So yes, Kingdom Hearts is not even remotely as vague as Neon Genesis Evangelion or say Umineko. By no means does that remove the complexity. But I've really yet to see many, if any, fans fall in love with Kingdom Hearts for the complex nature of it. As I said earlier, the detractors of the series bring that line up most of the time, not us fans.

 

[.:Mega:.]

The thing is, KH1 was a very straight forward, but enjoyable plot that still had some nice surprises. It was self-contained, even if it ended on a cliffhanger, and while there was room for a sequel, the story had closure.

KH2... it had some nice ideas. It COULD have been good had they tried not to make it so EPIC and just made it as straightforward as KH1 and didn't shove exposition everywhere. I still hate how Yen Sid basically explained the Organization. Part of what made KH1 great was that you didn't know what the baddies were up to at first. The plot unfolded on its own, and I didn't get that from KH2 at all. Not to mention all the filler, the world revisits, characterization goofs... However, even KH2 had closure. Take out the letter scene, and you could have easily called it the END, even if there were still mysteries, like what Xigbar said in TWTNW.

Which brings me to my personal thoughts on the matter: Nomura didn't have any ideas for Kingdom Hearts 3. At least, no real direction to work with. No, during the production of KH2, he was likely planning BBS to justify making KH3 and solve some remaining mysteries about Xehanort. Problem is, with vs XIII taking so long, we also got a ton of side games along with BBS (not necessarily a bad thing), and because of it, the story became very complicated.

Personally, I don't think the complexity is too bad because I've followed the series from the start, but I do feel that Nomura is trying way too hard by making everyone connected to a) Sora or b) Xehanort in some way. I didn't mind it in BBS, but this whole "Sora must save everyone" plot business irks me to no end because I'd MUCH rather have it be a joint effort or, heck, Aqua saving the day. Sora's gone from ordinary kid to plot convenience, and I hope that KH3D does something to fix that.

But yeah, biggest problem being... the series isn't newcomer friendly, with the exception of KH1 and BBS. Also Sora being the most important person ever.

 

[Tempus]

One of the things that made it so complicated, to me anyway, was the Ansem the Wise, Ansem SoD, Xemnas, Terranort, Master Xehanort, Riku looks like Ansem SoD mess. I couldn't figure it out until the end of BBS. I couldn't figure out how a guy could magically de-age, split himself into two and during all of that use a different name! Then why the kid he possessed still looked like him. It didn't help that I never played Days and didn't play CoM until a couple of years ago.

The other complicated and still unresolved confusion for me is what happened with Sora, Roxas, Kairi's heart, Namine and Xion. There's also the whole Ven, Sora, Vanitas thing still and the Riku, Terra (?), Vanitas (???) connection AND the Terra, Eraqus, MX thing.

My point, as others have said, is that the series is very unfriendly to people who are new or don't read SOME kind of plot summary. It also doesn't help that the series is so spread out. Both in terms of the system it's on (some people may not be able to play certain titles) and in terms of how long time wise this ONE story has taken to be told. I mean think about it. If some 12 year old (my age when KH1 came out) wanted to play KH1 now they'd have to go find an eight year old game and either a decade old PS2 or an approximately 5 year old PS3. I wish them the best of luck, but that is REALLY off putting if they want to play the game.

I feel really old saying this, but some of the kids that may have picked up Re:Coded or BBS weren't BORN! when KH1 was released! Why do you think they reboot comic book heroes every so often? Each generation has its own stories, art work etc... because the new readers aren't going to be interested in something that was begun before they existed!

I really hope that Nomura or someone he TRUSTS could re-release (and maybe update ^_^) the original trilogy (KH1, CoM and KH2) and maybe Days so that younger gamers could know what's going on and to alleviate some of the confusion that exists because of how they were developed. It would be nice for both the newcomers and us old farts if that were to happen, I think it could really re-invigorate the series as we get closer to KHIII !

 

[Shamdeo]

Oh no, I agree. I'm pretty sure Tetsuya Nomura makes it up as he goes for the most part, with some idea of how it's going to end. That's fine if you're able to pull it off. That, and there are other factors that contribute to how the series is structured. The series itself isn't particularly complex, it just leaves it's fans to theorize on a lot because all of the unanswered loose ends between titles.

 

[whodeany]

Firstly: can I just say it's awesome to see an debate taking place on this site that actually shows some intelligence.

Secondly: as someone who has been playing the series since kh1 was first released, I can understand how people say it has become convoluted. It has happened in the same way that it happened to pirates of the Caribbean. The first movie/game is released, it's is a single self contained story that ends up being much more popular than anticipated.
They then release a sequel which takes parts of the first one, and makes then seem as though they were foreshadowing toward the sequel all along.

The only issue is now Nomura is purposely leaving 'foreshadowing' in each game which makes them feel slightly incomplete. I think that things such as the Xemnas fight in kh1fm are fine (i.e. An off shoot of the original plot which eventually becomes important.), but when there are parts of characters intentions left completely unexplained so that it can be touched on later, I think it's making the series seem more complex than it actually is.

Also, as a side note, I never even considered that kh2 explained the organization in the first hour. Imagine how much better that game could have been with sora learning all that toward the end. Would have made such a difference...

 

[Tempus]

^ And it could have been used to grow Sora's character instead of Roxas'. I also noticed that and have always been a little angry that those scenecs were used to make us feel more sympathetic toward Roxas and Axel, when that was going to end up being accomplished (and Nomura knew this) by Days.

And you're right about the foreshadowing making things more complicated. Sometimes I think it's done just to be clever and other times I think they believe we're bored so they give us something to discuss LOL! At any rate, the sheer AMOUNT of it recently has made things sort of crazy. MF, all the stuff from both secret endings and 3D have all caused us to go a little nuts I think! Still, it's better than the secret trailer for BBS from KHII:FM! Remember that mess....

 

[whodeany]

^ahhh... Good times.

I'm sincerely hoping that 3d will be a straight forward game about sora/Riku showing the mark of mastery, and doing the usual 'doubt in each other only to learn to coexist in the end' type adventure. I'm hoping bbsv2 (assuming its a game) will handle the mysteries surrounding the games, and the two can pave the way to kingdom hearts III, which will resolve everything.

Instead, I think well get more and more mysteries and kh3 will try to explain them all and leave little room for a story of it's own.