Kingdom Hearts 3 Story Discussion

[Sdog]

It's the Twilight Town Clock Tower scene which can be unsettling for those who think that Isa being around Roxas & Xion isn't earned yet by his actions.

But he's the one that brought the ice cream! So clearly buying forgiveness should work.

 

[Twilight Lumiair]

Spoiler Show

I mean, maybe I missed something, but didn't wasn't said, or at the very least implied that Isa secretly assisted with the return of Roxas and Xion (but since he was one of the ones who was hand picked by Xehanort, he couldn't help carry out the action himself and had to continue fighting)? If Ienzo explained that to him beforehand, it makes sense that Roxas would a bit more forgiving of him. And, to be frank, his negative treatment of them never extended beyond verbal abuse and trying to keep Roxas in the Organization (which was likely an instruction based off the diologue), so I would imagine showing authentic kindness to them while admitting his own faults (which he already did in front of them when he was talking to Lea) should help them be a bit more forgiving. To be honest, I don't really see what else he could of have done. He hurt them with words because of his jealousy (which again, he admitted to), so words should've been able to remedy it. Him getting them Ice cream would've been yet another gesture of good will.

Let's not forget Riku talked crap to Xion and really got under her skin (visably pissing her off way more than any other character did, including Siax to the point where she angerly wrote about it in her journal about it), and she quickly forgave and worked with him after hearing his plight regarding Sora. She's empathetic, and capable of looking at things from other perspectives. Just watch her reaction when Isa fades away.

Roxas, for as caustic and stubborn as he can be, could've at least been willing to give Isa a chance after seeing him make up with Lea first hand, and witnessing how much the latter cared for the former. And again, there's that whole implication of Isa assisting in the background. Lea probably would have vouched for him too.

I dunno, I just felt like his redemption was really well done. It satisfied me thouroughly.

 

[Zettaflare]

I did like that Donald and Goofy had a bunch of moments to shine. Especially those two Being the only ones to repel Terranort. And they were the only non keyblade wielders in the group.

 

[Face My Fears]

I did like that Donald and Goofy had a bunch of moments to shine. Especially those two Being the only ones to repel Terranort. And they were the only non keyblade wielders in the group.

Spoiler Show

Donald's Zettaflare moment was amazing for me. I loved it. When I thought he died, I had tears in my eyes.

 

[fantasy08]

Hello All.:wink: Wow it's been a minute since I've been on this site. Last time I was here BBS had just come out lol. I'm honestly surprised I still remembered how to log in. Anywho down to business...

So what do you guys think aboutIsa becoming friends with Roxas and Xion. I dont mind him living but he did treat them like crap in 358 2 Days so it is a bit odd seeing them eating ice cream and playing frisbee together? Would those two forgive him so easily?

For right or wrong forgiveness seems to be a theme in this series. I mean even goddamn Xehanort got to go to KH heaven with the man he murdered.

I think some people's unease with Isa sitting there with them is that, minus the Xehanort physical influence of his eyes and ears, he still looks like Saix. This is a a man that has been douchey in every game he has appeared in except this one.

However,nobodies are pretty much severely twisted versions of their human selves. Their default is a lack of a conscious.

Also he never truly had a chance because I could have sworn he had the biggest monster in the series horcrux inside him for 12 years to the point he was taking on his features. Basically he had the odds stacked against him from the get go. He tried to fight back in this game though, and yet Xehanort's reign on him is still powerful enough that he had to do it behind the scenes and with the help from others.

Also Saix wasn't sitting on that clocktower nor was he at Destiny Island. Isa was.

Therefore I'm completely fine with Isa being friends with them because he's a victim himself. They were all clearly good people in BBS and then suddenly their evil. What changed? Oh that's right their freaking hearts are gone i.e. their conscious. Look at the difference a heart does for Ienzo for example. Zexion was simply an abomination of him. That is what lacking a conscious does.

Also should I blame Terra for what Xenmas did?

Basically I'm not in favor of atonement being out of Isa's reach just because of what his nobody did.
This also goes for the others as well.

[QUOTE]I mean, maybe I missed something, but didn't wasn't said, or at the very least implied that Isa secretly assisted with the return of Roxas and Xion (but since he was one of the ones who was hand picked by Xehanort, he couldn't help carry out the action himself and had to continue fighting)? If Ienzo explained that to him beforehand, it makes sense that Roxas would a bit more forgiving of him. And, to be frank, his negative treatment of them never extended beyond verbal abuse and trying to keep Roxas in the Organization (which was likely an instruction based off the diologue), so I would imagine showing authentic kindness to them while admitting his own faults (which he already did in front of them when he was talking to Lea) should help them be a bit more forgiving. To be honest, I don't really see what else he could of have done. He hurt them with words because of his jealousy (which again, he admitted to), so words should've been able to remedy it. Him getting them Ice cream would've been yet another gesture of good will.

Let's not forget Riku talked crap to Xion and really got under her skin (visably pissing her off way more than any other character did, including Siax to the point where she angerly wrote about it in her journal about it), and she quickly forgave and worked with him after hearing his plight regarding Sora. She's empathetic, and capable of looking at things from other perspectives. Just watch her reaction when Isa fades away.

Roxas, for as caustic and stubborn as he can be, could've at least been willing to give Isa a chance after seeing him make up with Lea first hand, and witnessing how much the latter cared for the former. And again, there's that whole implication of Isa assisting in the background. Lea probably would have vouched for him too.

I dunno, I just felt like his redemption was really well done. It satisfied me thouroughly.[/QUOTE]

Allllll of this. Some people acting like Saix was Xehanort's twin or something.

Both Roxas and Xion were visibly saddened by his 'death', and also were there to witness his moment of humanity with his former bestfriend and their present one Lea. He is also strongly implied to have helped in their resurrections. They also smiled at him when he gave them seasalt ice cream and he them. Yea, I think he's forgiven. Riku, Ienzo, Even, Ansem The Wise, etc all got to atone,but it's out of the question for Isa. Why?

I also want to point out that Riku and Ansem were completely human when they did their evil deeds. Consciousness intact and everything. Isa was not and hadn't been for a long time.

So yea I'm firmly on the RAXI train and wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[SerDuncan]

Here's the deal. I definitely agree with many of the people here about Isa being forgiven, and I would normally be looking forward to seeing him grow with the rest of the crew. The problem is the same problem I've had with most of the game: some vague allusions that he MIGHT have been helping Vexen and Ienzo with Roxas' replica just don't have enough weight to truly be considered head canon, and his lack of any sort of development throughout the game (apart from two scenes) just doesn't do it for me. In Days, in KH2, Saix was this big bad, right-hand man to Xehanort. He had ulterior motives that were occasionally hinted at, but for the most point he was this imposing figure. His dying scene after losing to Sora gave some subtle insight to his character that really fleshed him out for me.

Spoiler Show

In this game though... he has exactly two scenes: One with Axel where he explains their old plan in a very haphazard, retconn-y way. Don't get me wrong, I actually like the explanation. I just feel like... the previous discussions Axel and Saix had on this topic, and the scenes we see in BBS, don't seem to lead into this back story very well. It kinda feels like something added after the fact. Which isn't always a bad thing, but in a game full of retcons it really sticks out to me. Following up on that point, Saix seems so... different. He's nothing like the guy we met in previous games, he has a different way of talking, and he loses that imposing aura I felt he always seemed to have.

In his other scene, his death scene, we get more hasty exposition, a decent tying up of some loose ends with Axel and that's... it. He doesn't get a speech about why he decided to help Xehanort. He doesn't interact with Roxas and Xion at all, really. Especially when Xion switches sides, he doesn't say anything. Despite all his development in Days with the two of them, in his "dying" breaths he doesn't have anything to say. Instead, everything that was built up for him in previous games is cast aside in favor of this new, KHUX related plot. I feel like... most of this game was like this, honestly. This was just a part that felt really... forced, I guess, for me?

I dunno. I do like seeing him in his new outfit though, and I appreciate seeing him reconnect with the gang but... I feel like with so much built up for him, we got a rather rushed, incomplete ending. Granted this could be explored in later games but then... why couldn't we just tie up his connections to Roxas and Xion here, and talk about the girl subplot later? Agggh, man...

EDIT: Whoops, forgot to hide spoilers

 

[Graceful Schemer]

Anyone has solid idea on

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Vexen's 'his plan' conversation with Demyx as to who the 'he' is? The game suggests at some point that he is one of the final thirteen, but it was never confirmed? Is it Saix? The Secret Report seems to suggest Saix, but not really at the same time.

 

[SerDuncan]

Anyone has solid idea on

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Vexen's 'his plan' conversation with Demyx as to who the 'he' is? The game suggests at some point that he is one of the final thirteen, but it was never confirmed? Is it Saix? The Secret Report seems to suggest Saix, but not really at the same time.

Spoiler Show

It seems like the general consensus says Saix/Isa, but it honestly could have been anybody. My top three would be Saix, Xigbar, and then Marluxia, in that order. Xigbar might have wanted to speed Xehanort's plan along to get the key faster. Marluxia... not so much, but hey, who knows?

 

[Ballad of Caius]

I'd like to apologize about my Arendelle comments. Didn't mean to sound so judgemental.

Spoiler Show

Besides that, just finished the Caribbean. I enjoyed the world. It felt like a very separate game, but yeah, SDG were pretty much absent from the movie's plot. Like others have said, worlds with original plots were better than those based on the movie, with the exception of Kingdom of Corona.

 

[Twilight Lumiair]

Here's the deal. I definitely agree with many of the people here about Isa being forgiven, and I would normally be looking forward to seeing him grow with the rest of the crew. The problem is the same problem I've had with most of the game: some vague allusions that he MIGHT have been helping Vexen and Ienzo with Roxas' replica just don't have enough weight to truly be considered head canon, and his lack of any sort of development throughout the game (apart from two scenes) just doesn't do it for me. In Days, in KH2, Saix was this big bad, right-hand man to Xehanort. He had ulterior motives that were occasionally hinted at, but for the most point he was this imposing figure. His dying scene after losing to Sora gave some subtle insight to his character that really fleshed him out for me.

Spoiler Show

In this game though... he has exactly two scenes: One with Axel where he explains their old plan in a very haphazard, retconn-y way. Don't get me wrong, I actually like the explanation. I just feel like... the previous discussions Axel and Saix had on this topic, and the scenes we see in BBS, don't seem to lead into this back story very well. It kinda feels like something added after the fact. Which isn't always a bad thing, but in a game full of retcons it really sticks out to me. Following up on that point, Saix seems so... different. He's nothing like the guy we met in previous games, he has a different way of talking, and he loses that imposing aura I felt he always seemed to have.

In his other scene, his death scene, we get more hasty exposition, a decent tying up of some loose ends with Axel and that's... it. He doesn't get a speech about why he decided to help Xehanort. He doesn't interact with Roxas and Xion at all, really. Especially when Xion switches sides, he doesn't say anything. Despite all his development in Days with the two of them, in his "dying" breaths he doesn't have anything to say. Instead, everything that was built up for him in previous games is cast aside in favor of this new, KHUX related plot. I feel like... most of this game was like this, honestly. This was just a part that felt really... forced, I guess, for me?

I dunno. I do like seeing him in his new outfit though, and I appreciate seeing him reconnect with the gang but... I feel like with so much built up for him, we got a rather rushed, incomplete ending. Granted this could be explored in later games but then... why couldn't we just tie up his connections to Roxas and Xion here, and talk about the girl subplot later? Agggh, man...

EDIT: Whoops, forgot to hide spoilers

Spoiler Show

The framing of his character as this "imposing" figure, doesn't elevate anything he did to these people beyond verbal abuse, and carrying out orders. Acts can be put on, like Vexen and Xigbar show us in this game, and to once again be frank, there were many lines given by Siax in 358 days that implied there was more going on with him.

"Or put it this way, which would you rather suffer the loss of? Some make believe friendship, or a real one?"

"We have to set things right. There's simply too much on the line, Lea."

"You have changed. What happened at Castle Oblivion?.. Does the past mean nothing to you now?..."

Looking at these in retrospect, you can clearly see Isa was still adamantly determined to rescue this missing friend of theirs. He outright says in this game, following Xehanort's Nobody was the only way he could think of to find her again since she was his lab rat. When searching for the chamber of waking in 358, he says that he wants to find out about Xemnas' true agenda, likely believing it was still connected to his experiments, and then he wants to use that information to better help himself (his search for that girl). Then there's how it was revealed that the reason Axel helped Siax move up the ranks was specifically to help get him this information (Lea outright says this). With this in mind, we can deduce that his hurtful words toward Xion (mostly) and Roxas were very heavily motivated by the jealousy of seeing his old friend move on with his life, implying later on that he felt weak because of it, and grew infuriated with how Lea just "exited their lives", or more specifically their rescue mission, to go hang out with his two new best friends. Siax couldn't understand Axel's reasoning behind this, but never bothered to just sit down and... talk with him about it. Likewise, Lea admited in this game how he had a lot of trouble keeping up with Siax and what he was thinking (in this game, he also implied that he gave up on their search for their missing friend, deeming the attempt a failure and that Isa should give up to, but Isa quickly points out this hypocracy by using Roxas as a comparison which reinvigorates Lea's motivation to find her, and Lea doesn't even notice he did this). Suddenly, due to their lack of connection, Siax seemed very distant, and grew cold as a clear result of his jealousy (which Lea admitted he already knew).

I always felt that it was tragic seeing that if the two simply opened up with one another, that could have saved their whole friendship. That's why their talk on the Clock Tower was so important, and the revalations regarding his past motivations, as well as the amazing subtext that even further suggest Isa was still putting on a front (which lined up with Vexen's words) were just really satisfying and helped give the character so many layers, especially when you look at things in retrospect.

 

[Platinum End]

While what you guys are saying are true about the interactions with other characters, it most likely happened off screen. What they should have done was include all those tid bits with the trios etc. I am pretty sure all of them had a talk but again off screen lol

 

[DarkosOverlord]

Spoiler Show

I mean, maybe I missed something, but didn't wasn't said, or at the very least implied that Isa secretly assisted with the return of Roxas and Xion (but since he was one of the ones who was hand picked by Xehanort, he couldn't help carry out the action himself and had to continue fighting)? If Ienzo explained that to him beforehand, it makes sense that Roxas would a bit more forgiving of him. And, to be frank, his negative treatment of them never extended beyond verbal abuse and trying to keep Roxas in the Organization (which was likely an instruction based off the diologue), so I would imagine showing authentic kindness to them while admitting his own faults (which he already did in front of them when he was talking to Lea) should help them be a bit more forgiving. To be honest, I don't really see what else he could of have done. He hurt them with words because of his jealousy (which again, he admitted to), so words should've been able to remedy it. Him getting them Ice cream would've been yet another gesture of good will.

Let's not forget Riku talked crap to Xion and really got under her skin (visably pissing her off way more than any other character did, including Siax to the point where she angerly wrote about it in her journal about it), and she quickly forgave and worked with him after hearing his plight regarding Sora. She's empathetic, and capable of looking at things from other perspectives. Just watch her reaction when Isa fades away.

Roxas, for as caustic and stubborn as he can be, could've at least been willing to give Isa a chance after seeing him make up with Lea first hand, and witnessing how much the latter cared for the former. And again, there's that whole implication of Isa assisting in the background. Lea probably would have vouched for him too.

I dunno, I just felt like his redemption was really well done. It satisfied me thouroughly.

Spoiler Show

The problem I have is the same: all of this is a bunch of "might've, could've". It's all implied and speculated, with no visive proof. Meanwhile, I had constant confirmation of Saix's shitty behaviour.
Him sending Vexen to do his thing only makes it acceptable that he even is with the good guys, but there's a bunch of things he did and said that had nothing to do with keeping appearances with Xemnas that he didn't answer for.

The thing with Riku and Xion is that Xion first sought out Riku after their first encounter and then they had a talk. In that talk, Riku explained to her what the situation was and introduced her to Naminé. Riku treated Xion as a person and responsibilized her by making her essentially his companion for the mission to get Sora back. And while she was gone and supposedly forgotten he still answered her call to stop Roxas (of course it was also in Riku/DiZ interests to stop him, but he does it upon Xion's favour too).
So, even if Riku was mean in their first match (which is also far more understandable given that they were enemies and that Riku himself was shocked and didn't understand what Xion even was), their relationship evolved and improved. Meanwhile with Isa I just have to believe the game that the same happened.

I think some people's unease with Isa sitting there with them is that, minus the Xehanort physical influence of his eyes and ears, he still looks like Saix. This is a a man that has been douchey in every game he has appeared in except this one.

However,nobodies are pretty much severely twisted versions of their human selves. Their default is a lack of a conscious.

Also he never truly had a chance because I could have sworn he had the biggest monster in the series horcrux inside him for 12 years to the point he was taking on his features. Basically he had the odds stacked against him from the get go. He tried to fight back in this game though, and yet Xehanort's reign on him is still powerful enough that he had to do it behind the scenes and with the help from others.

Also Saix wasn't sitting on that clocktower nor was he at Destiny Island. Isa was.

Therefore I'm completely fine with Isa being friends with them because he's a victim himself. They were all clearly good people in BBS and then suddenly their evil. What changed? Oh that's right their freaking hearts are gone i.e. their conscious. Look at the difference a heart does for Ienzo for example. Zexion was simply an abomination of him. That is what lacking a conscious does.

Also should I blame Terra for what Xenmas did?

Basically I'm not in favor of atonement being out of Isa's reach just because of what his nobody did.
This also goes for the others as well.

So yea I'm firmly on the RAXI train and wouldn't have it any other way.

Welcome back first of all and I'm sorry to be kinda confrontational during your comeback, but I disagree with this interpreation of Nobodies.
Roxas, Naminé and Axel were Nobodies (the latter especially isn't even an exception or an anomaly so what goes for him goes for all Nobodies) and they were good people with a conciousness. There's almost nothing separating a Nobody from his human counterpart, to the point that Lea doesn't even mind being called Axel, because Axel is who he was. Nobodies are totally capable of being held accountable for their actions. I think Ienzo's change is only due of personal growth and not because he's a person now: Vexen is a Nobody again in KH III, but he want to atone too. Again, Nobodies aren't necessarily twisted. It's a choice they make exactly as humans do.

Little is still known about Xehanort's influence and how long he was in some people, but even in this case I do not feel like Isa has excuses. Xigbar and Demyx were Norted before and after him, but they still retained their own personalities and goals, and carried out their own plans even under Xehanort's influence (and so did Isa, if he was the one contacting Vexen). So I'm sorry, but most of the shitty things Saix did are Isa's fault.
Terra is a different matter because he was indeed in a Horcrux situation: Terra was split in essentially three parts, two of which were kept on a literal leash by Xehanort. Terra's main fault is that he's dumb rather than his willingness in doing bad things.
Riku had the longest and most detailed redemption arc in the series and Ansem The Wise has been shown struck with painful remorse in every scene after KH II, and in KH III does his best to atone. As I said, the main thing I have issues with Isa's redemption is that he almost doesn't feel guilty at all.

 

[SerDuncan]

Spoiler Show

The framing of his character as this "imposing" figure, doesn't elevate anything he did to these people beyond verbal abuse, and carrying out orders. Acts can be put on, like Vexen and Xigbar show us in this game, and to once again be frank, there were many lines given Siax in 358 days that implied there was more going on to him.

Or put it this way, which would you rather suffer the loss of? Some make believe friendship, or a real one?"

"We have to set things right. There's simply too much on the line, Lea."

"You have changed. What happened at Castle Oblivion?.. Does the past mean nothing to you now?..."

Looking at these in retrospect, you can clearly see Isa was still adamantly determined to rescue this missing friend of theirs. He outright says in this game, following Xehanort's Nobody was the only way he could think of to find her again since she was his lab rat. When searching for the chamber of waking in 358, he says that he wants to find out about Xemnas' true agenda, likely believing it was still connected to his experiments, and then he wants to use that information to better help himself (his search for that girl). Then there's how it was revealed that the reason Axel helped Siax move up the ranks was specifically to help get him this information (Lea outright says this). With this in mind, we can deduce that his hurtful words toward Xion (mostly) and Roxas were very heavily motivated by the jealousy of seeing his old friend move on with his life, implying later on that he felt weak because of it, and grew infuriated how Lea just "exited their lives", or more specifically their rescue mission, to go hang out with his two new best friends. Siax couldn't understand Axel's reasoning behind this, but never bothered to just sit down and... talk with him about it. Likewise, Lea admited in this game how he had a lot of trouble keeping up with Siax and what he was thinking (in this game, he also implied that he gave up on their search for their missing friend, deeming the attempt a failure and that Isa should give up to, but Isa quickly points out this hypocracy by using Roxas as a comparison which reinvigorates Lea's motivation to find her, and Lea doesn't even notice he did this). Suddenly, due to their lack of connection, Siax seemed very distant, and grew cold as a clear result of his jealousy (which Lea admitted he already knew).

I always felt that it was tragic seeing that if two simply opened up with one another, that could have saved their whole friendship. That's why their talk on the Clock Tower was so important, and the revalations regarding his past motivations, as well as the amazing subtext that even further suggest Isa was still putting on a front (which lined up with Vexen's words) were just really satisfying and helped give the character so many layers, especially when you look at things in retrospect.

What's kinda funny about your response is that I actually agree with you on a lot of points. But I feel like... you've kind of taken two plots loosely tied together and smushed them. Does that make any sense?

Spoiler Show

Like... yes, I figured he had a front on perhaps (although, honestly, he even admits that he got too into his role, and as a Nobody, not having a heart for a long time probably didn't help much). What I'm getting at is NOT that they didn't have some secret plan: that is obvious from Days and Kh2. What I'm getting at is that when you play Days, and you play Kh2 and even BBS, what their original goal was, and what this new goal is, it just doesn't seem to mesh for me. Like... it feels like originally, Saix had a different plan. Why did he need to rise through the ranks to find out about the girl? It doesn't really fit together as snugly as I would like. I think Nomura threw in this motivation instead of the original one, because it feels off. The way they speak about it, they way it's discussed... it might just be the writing but that's my impression.

While I get that Vexen's words COULD be interpreted to mean Saix, we honestly don't have any clue one way or the other. Considering that Isa/Saix never mentions it, and that we don't actually get to see the researchers making the replica or anything like that, it really could be any number of people. I understand that saying it's Saix could make his character in KH3 a lot better, but I'd like to see hard evidence, or at least SOME kind of evidence beyond theorizing that it's him before I hop on that train.

You are... way better are getting your thoughts out than me. It's like I'm reading an essay! It's awesome.

 

[FudgemintGuardian]

Spoiler Show

Like... it feels like originally, Saix had a different plan. Why did he need to rise through the ranks to find out about the girl?.

Probably the biggest point made against this whole thing. But to try and reason it, Saix needed to rise through the ranks in order to gain Xemnas' trust so it'd be safe to ask. That's all I got.

 

[Graceful Schemer]

Probably the biggest point made against this whole thing. But to try and reason it, Saix needed to rise through the ranks in order to gain Xemnas' trust so it'd be safe to ask. That's all I got.

Most likely,

Spoiler Show

he thinks he needs to be high enough for him to be assigned to handle the girl or be in the inner circle when the girl will be a topic of discussion

What are people thoughts on

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Xemnas apparently knowing about the Ancient Legacy. Did he hear it from Xigbar? How did he know something that the people of interest cannot recall? If Xigbar suggested this somehow, how did he not raise suspicion with the box and everything?

 

[FudgemintGuardian]

What are people thoughts on

Spoiler Show

Xemnas apparently knowing about the Ancient Legacy. Did he hear it from Xigbar? How did he know something that the people of interest cannot recall? If Xigbar suggested this somehow, how did he not raise suspicion with the box and everything?

I'm pretty sure he found out from experimenting on Subject X. Secret Report 3 is Apprentice Xehanort saying he'll use the same experiments he was doing on himself to look through her memories. The four friends are mostly likely the original selves of Marluxia, Larxene, Demyx, and Luxord.

 

[Elysium]

Hello All. Wow it's been a minute since I've been on this site. Last time I was here BBS had just come out lol. I'm honestly surprised I still remembered how to log in. Anywho down to business...



For right or wrong forgiveness seems to be a theme in this series. I mean even goddamn Xehanort got to go to KH heaven with the man he murdered.

I think some people's unease with Isa sitting there with them is that, minus the Xehanort physical influence of his eyes and ears, he still looks like Saix. This is a a man that has been douchey in every game he has appeared in except this one.

However,nobodies are pretty much severely twisted versions of their human selves. Their default is a lack of a conscious.

Also he never truly had a chance because I could have sworn he had the biggest monster in the series horcrux inside him for 12 years to the point he was taking on his features. Basically he had the odds stacked against him from the get go. He tried to fight back in this game though, and yet Xehanort's reign on him is still powerful enough that he had to do it behind the scenes and with the help from others.

Also Saix wasn't sitting on that clocktower nor was he at Destiny Island. Isa was.

Therefore I'm completely fine with Isa being friends with them because he's a victim himself. They were all clearly good people in BBS and then suddenly their evil. What changed? Oh that's right their freaking hearts are gone i.e. their conscious. Look at the difference a heart does for Ienzo for example. Zexion was simply an abomination of him. That is what lacking a conscious does.

Also should I blame Terra for what Xenmas did?

Basically I'm not in favor of atonement being out of Isa's reach just because of what his nobody did.
This also goes for the others as well.



Allllll of this. Some people acting like Saix was Xehanort's twin or something.

Both Roxas and Xion were visibly saddened by his 'death', and also were there to witness his moment of humanity with his former bestfriend and their present one Lea. He is also strongly implied to have helped in their resurrections. They also smiled at him when he gave them seasalt ice cream and he them. Yea, I think he's forgiven. Riku, Ienzo, Even, Ansem The Wise, etc all got to atone,but it's out of the question for Isa. Why?

I also want to point out that Riku and Ansem were completely human when they did their evil deeds. Consciousness intact and everything. Isa was not and hadn't been for a long time.

So yea I'm firmly on the RAXI train and wouldn't have it any other way.

Spoiler Show

I agree with both of you on everything, really. I think people are superimposing their own feelings about Saix/Isa onto the character, because it's clear from Roxas's and Xion's reactions to Saix's 'death' scene and the fact that they're all on the tower together at the end that they aren't carrying any resentment. And there are others who did much worse than he did (most of which amounts to cruel words) who were forgiven a while ago in this series.

Regardless, I'm just happy Isa *was* redeemed. That was my biggest want for KH3. I was afraid he was one of those characters who could only be redeemed through death, but thankfully that wasn't the case. If the rest of the fandom hates it, that's their prerogative. Either way, he is a part of RAX now in canon and that ain't gonna change.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

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Considering the game wants you to feel like Isa is completely redeemed, I'm not sure how much weight Roxas and Xion's reactions to his death hold, actually. Obviously they're not going to have any issue with him because the scene wants them to insta-forgive him.
The problem we have with him is the writing that led to his complete acquittal, and the forgiveness he gains is less of a proof and more what we don't like about the whole thing.

I dunno, it's like how minus some throwaway lines Kairi will never have a serious problem with the way she's always shoved to the sidelines or how Aqua should've cast a barrier instead of taking Vanitas' fire to the face like a fool, because the game wouldn't benefit from drawing attention to these facts. That doesn't mean that it's not something worth pointing out.

 

[Twilight Lumiair]

What's kinda funny about your response is that I actually agree with you on a lot of points. But I feel like... you've kind of taken two plots loosely tied together and smushed them. Does that make any sense?

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Like... yes, I figured he had a front on perhaps (although, honestly, he even admits that he got too into his role, and as a Nobody, not having a heart for a long time probably didn't help much). What I'm getting at is NOT that they didn't have some secret plan: that is obvious from Days and Kh2. What I'm getting at is that when you play Days, and you play Kh2 and even BBS, what their original goal was, and what this new goal is, it just doesn't seem to mesh for me. Like... it feels like originally, Saix had a different plan. Why did he need to rise through the ranks to find out about the girl? It doesn't really fit together as snugly as I would like. I think Nomura threw in this motivation instead of the original one, because it feels off. The way they speak about it, they way it's discussed... it might just be the writing but that's my impression.

While I get that Vexen's words COULD be interpreted to mean Saix, we honestly don't have any clue one way or the other. Considering that Isa/Saix never mentions it, and that we don't actually get to see the researchers making the replica or anything like that, it really could be any number of people. I understand that saying it's Saix could make his character in KH3 a lot better, but I'd like to see hard evidence, or at least SOME kind of evidence beyond theorizing that it's him before I hop on that train.

You are... way better are getting your thoughts out than me. It's like I'm reading an essay! It's awesome.

First of all, thank you so much for the compliment! And I can understand your discomfort, since a lot of what goes on with Isa has always been subtle. If you don't feel the writing tied his motivations together satisfactorally, there's really not much I can say or do other give you my perspective.

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Aside from the fact that it simply doesn't line up for anyone else in my eyes, remember that it was Isa who recruited Vexen to the new Organization in the first place (as confirmed by Marluxia). And in the cutscene between the two, Isa actually insist that Axel ultimately did him (Vexen) a favor by unknowingly restoring his humanity, and how that humanity was a precious gift (trying to make sure Vexen thoroughly understood what he was risking and giving up). That diologue shows that he was well aware that everyone in the Organization would ultimately lose themselves and their agency to Xehanort, but since he was "one of the chosen, his hands were tied" (In Vexen's own words). Since Vexen wasn't one of the "chosen"/handpicked by Xehanort himself, he would be off-radar enough to do what he did in the game. It also makes sense how Isa was able to relay those instructions to him without causing suspicion. He would have been the one who was ultimately responsible for Vexens' actions in the eyes of the other members (since, again, he was the one who recruited him). Though I will say they lucked out quite a bit when Ansem SoD decided to be merciful and let him continue for his own reasons (even then though, that wouldn't have placed immediate suspicion on Isa anyway, although that would rob them of their chance to atone now that I think about it). This was my logic when looking back on the scenes.

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The problem I have is the same: all of this is a bunch of "might've, could've". It's all implied and speculated, with no visive proof. Meanwhile, I had constant confirmation of Saix's shitty behaviour.
Him sending Vexen to do his thing only makes it acceptable that he even is with the good guys, but there's a bunch of things he did and said that had nothing to do with keeping appearances with Xemnas that he didn't answer for.

The thing with Riku and Xion is that Xion first sought out Riku after their first encounter and then they had a talk. In that talk, Riku explained to her what the situation was and introduced her to Naminé. Riku treated Xion as a person and responsibilized her by making her essentially his companion for the mission to get Sora back. And while she was gone and supposedly forgotten he still answered her call to stop Roxas (of course it was also in Riku/DiZ interests to stop him, but he does it upon Xion's favour too).
So, even if Riku was mean in their first match (which is also far more understandable given that they were enemies and that Riku himself was shocked and didn't understand what Xion even was), their relationship evolved and improved. Meanwhile with Isa I just have to believe the game that the same happened.

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I agree that many of the things he said were unwarrented, but ultimately, words are words, and the most I could see him doing is taking them back and showing them the genuine kindness they deserve from now on (one clue for this being the ice cream he gets them in the ending). He admitted that he was jealous, and acknowledged his faults openly in front of them (even if he wasn't going to do it twice, it was still a really big thing of him to do after being cold to them for so long). I agree the game could have benefitted from expressly showing us some form of apology from him (and I don't fault you for not being able to fully accept it otherwise), but even if it was off screen, there's really no reason to assume it didn't happen. I mean Axel apologized to Kairi off screen in this game, and by the time we see her she's already on good terms with Lea. So I picture something similar here (especially since Isa was already on good terms with Lea by the end, so he would've gotten his support).

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Considering the game wants you to feel like Isa is completely redeemed, I'm not sure how much weight Roxas and Xion's reactions to his death hold, actually. Obviously they're not going to have any issue with him because the scene wants them to insta-forgive him.
The problem we have with him is the writing that led to his complete acquittal, and the forgiveness he gains is less of a proof and more what we don't like about the whole thing.

I dunno, it's like how minus some throwaway lines Kairi will never have a serious problem with the way she's always shoved to the sidelines or how Aqua should've cast a barrier instead of taking Vanitas' fire to the face like a fool, because the game wouldn't benefit from drawing attention to these facts. That doesn't mean that it's not something worth pointing out.

So it basically felt forced to you then? I mean.. I don't really think the game was trying to dodge around all the things Isa did, so much as it was humanizing him and giving his story some rich subtext. Not everything is blatantly laid out with him, and as someone who loves to analyze and peel back the layers of a character's psychology and their arc (so like their motivations, intensions, masked emotions, etc.) I don't mind having certain events happening off screen as long as we can conclude that it did happen. It's a writing approach that typically leads to this exact kind of divisiveness amongst the people taking in the story, and in the end it's subjective, and I really can't say much past my own opinion on the execution of it all. So for those who don't personally like how things were presented, I hope it doesn't bog down the future stories involving this character for you to much. Hopefully this will all be neatly clarified in a future interview, but knowing Nomura, I won't get my hopes up, lol.

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I agree with both of you on everything, really. I think people are superimposing their own feelings about Saix/Isa onto the character, because it's clear from Roxas's and Xion's reactions to Saix's 'death' scene and the fact that they're all on the tower together at the end that they aren't carrying any resentment. And there are others who did much worse than he did (most of which amounts to cruel words) who were forgiven a while ago in this series.

Regardless, I'm just happy Isa *was* redeemed. That was my biggest want for KH3. I was afraid he was one of those characters who could only be redeemed through death, but thankfully that wasn't the case. If the rest of the fandom hates it, that's their prerogative. Either way, he is a part of RAX now in canon and that ain't gonna change.

Also, yes. All of this.

 

[U.N. Owen]

Since the secret reports mention that Eraqus is a blueblood and descended from among the first keyblade masters, which Foreteller or leader of the Dandelions got busy and had that lineage?