Woah woah, okay. Tell you the truth, I'm not a fan of how you articulated this last response. You don't need to keep repeating "This is canon" every two paragraphs and you certainly don't need to say "This is so false it hurts" and other stuff like that. People aren't blatantly ignoring source material just because they have a different opinion than yours.
It's not a form of debate I find particularly enjoyable.
With that out of the way, I wanna keep this a bit on the shorter side also because it's becoming less about the story of KH III and more about Nobodies and morality.
First of all, I just want to point out that I've never said anything about blaming Terra for Xemnas, ignoring Xehanort's evil deeds or that Isa doesn't get the chance to redeem himself. In truth my point advocates that Isa is in need of redemption the most, because what Saix did IS his fault. I'll be frank, at times reading your reply it seemed like you did contradict yourself here and there. Essentially you said that Nobodies change the person for worse and are twisted monsters, BUT they can also grow a heart which makes them NOT monsters, AND Vexen retained Even's good intentions so that's why he was good in KH III.
But... if Vexen could do that, why didn't he do that the first time he became a Nobody, since Even was such a good and candid soul. Why in that case the "Nobodyfication" turned him into that unfeeling monster.
Another canon part is that Xemnas, Roxas and Naminé are special Nobodies that developed a sense of self also due to the fact that Xehanort and Sora retained their rationality even as Heartless, and Kairi simply did not have one at all (this last part is admitedly less canon and more implied, but it's not my main point here). Okay.
So... barring Xemnas because of plot stuff and being already part of an evil group, only two Nobodies are considered "worthy" of existing as themselves: Roxas and Naminé.
Now, if Nobodies are these monsters (but apparently not, since as you yourself have admitted they can grow a heart, which makes them not monsters) that are responsible of their deeds unlike their human counterpart, why aren't Axel and Saix coming back and answer for their past actions?
If Saix is a no-no because it didn't grow a heart (though he definitely did) so he's still in the "twisted" state, well, Axel isn't. Why can't Axel come back, atone and then live his own life, showing the rest of the world that Nobodies can change? You can't tell me that Axel wouldn't do it because he's a twisted Nobody. He saved Sora and admitted was sorry for what he did to Kairi.
But no one in the good guys group ever mentions bringing back Axel. Because Axel, like all regular Nobodies, is just the prosecution of his human self. Lea is Axel, Axel is Lea.
Other point. Ansem The Wise writes in his reports that something went wrong with his apprentices, and that Darkness had sprouted in their hearts. His apprentices took part in his inhuman experiments, without ever stopping him or denouncing him to the public. They built a machine that spawns artificial Darkness.
They were still humans at the time and not Norted, despite the fact that KH III basically proved Nortification isn't nearly as strong and will-bending as you're making it out to be. Everyone did whatever they wanted. Sure, there was Darkness and probably Xehanort did manipulate them a bit, but I'm okay with that as a partial excuse for their actions. But "Nobodyfication" plays no part in this.
Considering we can't take KH III into account considering the very point we're debating on is precisely why the characters in that game act the way they do, we only have BbS to look at the Somebodies' behaviour. Except that there's a 10-11 years gap between that and what we see of the Nobodies, in which a lot can happen (especially with Ienzo who was only a child, unlike Zexion), such as the aforementioned experiments and Darkness corruption.
Plus there's other stuff I essentially already mentioned... Vexen's behaviour in KH III alone kinda disproves the whole thing about Nobodies being twisted distortions, as I've said. On the opposite side, Xigbar isn't any worse than Braig. Marluxia lost his memories (and we agree that has nothing to do with being turned into a Nobody), which in itself makes him a different case than Isa and there's still so much mystery surrounding his life that he can't really be hard proof of much. And even if something did happen to him, even if it was because of him becoming a Nobody, that doesn't make it an universal rule. If that happens I'll concede sometimes a personality switch can happen, but it doesn't change that other Nobodies don't follow that at all.
Also I've never hated Saix in my life and I certainly wouldn't do something as petty as "taking it out" on Isa, lol. I'd avoid making these assumptions about the people you're discussing with. Again, not a fan. Like, I'm glad you want to discuss and I do think and hope you didn't want to come on this strong, but it sort of happened.
Your idea of Nobodies isn't as solid as you think it is. And I simply don't believe is true or canon at all.
I've said my piece and made all my points several times now, so this is where I stop with this discussion, at least here.
Your new reply is the one that reads hostile to me. Also as I stated I simply came to debate and I don't see anything wrong with using facts to do that.
To me canon is the truest form to do so,and
especially on this subject.
There were no contradictions in my post since they were based on
facts,but there were a lot of world salad and opinions in yours.
Morality is
already in this series because if it isn't then what is the point of atoning?
Again go back to BBS. You seem to want to ignore that even though its the clearest view(next to this game) of them being good people before Xehanort got a hold of them.Take another peak at them in this game as well. Do they act like sociopaths?
If it
isn't canon that nobodies are pretty much severely twisted versions of their human selves, and that their
default is a lack of having a conscious, then please explain why
Isa and Saix are different? Ienzo and Zexion? Even and Vexen? Terra and Xenmas? Dilan and Xaldin etc.
You have yet to answer this with actual canon. You simply keep giving me your opinion.
The story isn't saying that humans are these angelic creatures, and that they will only do evil if they become a Nobody. Just look at Riku, Ansem, Master Xehanort,and The Apprentices,under Terra-Xehanort's guidance, to see how untrue that is.
However,again there is a
key component missing from the Nobody that the human
has.
This missing component is the biggest treasure in the the story. It is what makes them have the
true choice to do
right or wrong.
However,the issue is that you are pretty much saying that Nobodies should be held to the
same moral standard as humans when that
key component of the whole series is missing,and what's more even the
series itself doesn't agree with you.
Even when Dream Drop Shark Jump came out it said that nobodies, and replica's apparently, could
possibly grow hearts
not that they start out with them
nor that they would ever grow one. It was simply a slim possibility.
Axel
started to get a
budding one
due to his friendship with Xion and Roxas, but yet he still didn't
fully get his conscious back until he was
Lea. Axel was also quite the ahole in Re:Com, and to a lesser intent Days and Kh2, but Lea doesn't seem to be
stuck on douchebag though.
Again on Vexen and all based on canon.
[QUOTE]Isa actually insist that Axel ultimately did him (Vexen) a favor by unknowingly restoring his humanity, and how that humanity was a precious gift (trying to make sure Vexen thoroughly understood what he was risking and giving up). That diologue shows that he was well aware that everyone in the Organization would ultimately lose themselves and their agency to Xehanort, but since he was "one of the chosen, his hands were tied" (In Vexen's own words).
[/QUOTE]
Exactly. This bit of conversation was especially important, and reinforces quite neatly the already established canon of nobodies becoming very twisted versions of themselves once their humanity is gone. Even was playing a dangerous game becoming a Nobody again.
Vexen also agreed to the plan with Saix when he was still EVEN. This is stated pretty blatantly in his secret report. He simply retained that plan when he became a Nobody again. Keeping their memories (twisted as they might become) has been canon since KH2.
Axel will never be Lea without Lea's heart.
The only heart part Saix had was Xehanort's because he most certainly never had Isa's until the ending clock tower scene and Destiny Islands.
Basically you seem to want me to ignore eight games of canon, that I've seen played out with my own eyes and ears as well as Nomura's interviews and Utimania, just because
you can't seem to stand that the human of the guy who was mean to a doll(for Saix) and a Nobody are now hanging out with them.
Yea, I'm done to because I've said my piece to the point of going in circles by this point.
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