Kingdom Hearts 3 Story Discussion

[FudgemintGuardian]

Since the secret reports mention that Eraqus is a blueblood and descended from among the first keyblade masters, which Foreteller or leader of the Dandelions got busy and had that lineage?

My guess is that no one from the Foretellers, since they just seemed to have left the Chi-era and are just now in current time, so they couldn't have been around to "seal the keyhole" if you catch my drift. My guess is if it's one of the current leaders, then it's Brain or Skuld, or both. Both could happen.

 

[fantasy08]

[quote]Welcome back first of all and I'm sorry to be kinda confrontational during your comeback, but I disagree with this interpreation of Nobodies.
Roxas, Naminé and Axel were Nobodies (the latter especially isn't even an exception or an anomaly so what goes for him goes for all Nobodies) and they were good people with a conciousness. There's almost nothing separating a Nobody from his human counterpart, to the point that Lea doesn't even mind being called Axel, because Axel is who he was. Nobodies are totally capable of being held accountable for their actions. I think Ienzo's change is only due of personal growth and not because he's a person now: Vexen is a Nobody again in KH III, but he want to atone too. Again, Nobodies aren't necessarily twisted. It's a choice they make exactly as humans do.

Little is still known about Xehanort's influence and how long he was in some people, but even in this case I do not feel like Isa has excuses. Xigbar and Demyx were Norted before and after him, but they still retained their own personalities and goals, and carried out their own plans even under Xehanort's influence (and so did Isa, if he was the one contacting Vexen). So I'm sorry, but most of the shitty things Saix did are Isa's fault.
Terra is a different matter because he was indeed in a Horcrux situation: Terra was split in essentially three parts, two of which were kept on a literal leash by Xehanort. Terra's main fault is that he's dumb rather than his willingness in doing bad things.
Riku had the longest and most detailed redemption arc in the series and Ansem The Wise has been shown struck with painful remorse in every scene after KH II, and in KH III does his best to atone. As I said, the main thing I have issues with Isa's redemption is that he almost doesn't feel guilty at all. [/QUOTE]


Hi, and thanks.:biggrin: I don't see it as confrontational. We’re just debating. It's fine.

It's not an interpretation though. It's canon.

Go back to BBS. Also look at the human selves of past nobodies in this game. Do they act like sociopaths?

It has nothing to do with personal growth, but atonement towards what he did as a Nobody. They do still retain their nobodies memories after all. Ienzo does not act like Zexion. This is blatantly canon. What is the difference? Isa, in both BBS and his return at the end, does not act like Saix. What is the difference? Also we learn Isa and Lea were the only comfort to an imprisoned like an animal young girl. What an evil shitball. Demyx was always a mellower nobody. This didn't stop him from trying to kill Sora in Kh2 though.
Xigbar was always a douchebag, with is own plans even as a human, and they're even more horrible then we thought considering who he really is. You know who wasn't though? Isa, Ienzo, Even, Dilan, and Aleueus. What could possibly have changed to make them be such raging assholes? I wonder, I wonder.

Nope we're not ignoring the influence of Xehanort either. Little is known about Xehanort’s horcrux influence? Really? So you're just going to outright ignore Xehanort’s monstrous characterization and deeds then?
Also did Isa have yellow eyes and pointy ears? Terra's hair was always silver/white right? Also was Terra a douche to?

To add more and more helpings to this the Nameless Star point blank says that the person she's looking to save her has been heart jacked by another and is therefore not themselves, but if they were they would be horribly distraught about what happened to her. There's strong implications she's talking about Marluxia or if she's the missing girl than it's Isa.

Nevertheless, regardless of which one is being referenced, what are they both now?

A Nobody and a heart tank for Xehanort.

So on top of Isa becoming an abomination of nature he also had the horucrux of the biggest monster in the series in him. You know who else did? Terra.

Xenmas is Terra and Xenehort's nobody. This is canon. So again should I blame Terra for Xemnas actions?

Also Apprentice Terra-Xenehort was still human, and yet he helped do horrible, horrible things to Ansem, his apprentices, and the RG citizens. Should I blame Terra for that to?

Basically I'm simply putting the blame when it comes to Isa, Terra, and the rest of the nobodies turned humans, on where the narrative says I should. Xehanort and Nobodification.

When Dream Drop Shark Jump came out it said that nobodies, and replica's apparently, could possibly grow hearts not that they start out with them nor that they would ever grow one. Axel started to get a budding one back due to his friendship with Xion and Roxas, but yet he still didn't fully get his conscious back until he was Lea. Axel was also quite the ahole in Re:Com, and to a lesser intent in Days and Kh2,but yet Lea isn't stuck on douchebag.

Again why does Lea get to atone for his actions as Axel, but Isa doesn't get to for Saix?

Riku and Ansem the Wise get more blame for their evil deeds because there is a key component missing in a Nobody that isn't in a human. This is blatant canon. However, if Riku and Ansem have the right to atone for all the heinous things they did with a heart then Isa and the rest should get to atone for what they did as nobodies.

Lea has been called Axel for 12 years instead of his true name. Even when he came back as Lea he kept having to tell people to call him that instead of Axel. However, his nobody is all they knew him as so he just gave up and said Axel is fine. It had nothing to do with 'proof' of a Nobody and their human selves being exactly the same person. This line of thinking is canonically false.

If it isn't canon that nobodies are pretty much severely twisted versions of their human selves, and that their default is a lack of having a conscious, then explain why Isa and Saix are different? Ienzo and Zexion? Even and Vexen? Terra and Xenmas? Dilan and Xaldin etc. Again there seems to be a key component missing from the Nobody that the human has. Oh, What Oh, What could it possibly be?

[QUOTE]Isa actually insist that Axel ultimately did him (Vexen) a favor by unknowingly restoring his humanity, and how that humanity was a precious gift (trying to make sure Vexen thoroughly understood what he was risking and giving up). That diologue shows that he was well aware that everyone in the Organization would ultimately lose themselves and their agency to Xehanort, but since he was "one of the chosen, his hands were tied" (In Vexen's own words).
[/QUOTE]

Exactly. This bit of conversation was especially important, and reinforces quite neatly the already established canon of nobodies becoming very twisted versions of themselves once their humanity is gone. Even was playing a dangerous game becoming a Nobody again.

[QUOTE]While I get that Vexen's words COULD be interpreted to mean Saix, we honestly don't have any clue one way or the other. Considering that Isa/Saix never mentions it, and that we don't actually get to see the researchers making the replica or anything like that, it really could be any number of people. I understand that saying it's Saix could make his character in KH3 a lot better, but I'd like to see hard evidence, or at least SOME kind of evidence beyond theorizing that it's him before I hop on that train. [/QUOTE]

Read Vexen's reports. He says as Even that a man younger than him, and who also used to be the second in command of the old organization, approached him with a plan. Then later we see him, and what do you know Saix, talking to each other. Then Marluxia also brings up Saix and Vexen. I mean it's not blatantly saying Saix is Vexen's partner in crime, but based on strong context clues it's pretty much screaming it.

Vexen also agreed to the plan with Saix when he was still Even. This is stated pretty blatantly in his secret report. He simply retained that plan when he became a Nobody again. Keeping their memories (twisted as they might become) has been canon since KH2.


[QUOTE]I agree with both of you on everything, really. I think people are superimposing their own feelings about Saix/Isa onto the character, because it's clear from Roxas's and Xion's reactions to Saix's 'death' scene and the fact that they're all on the tower together at the end that they aren't carrying any resentment. And there are others who did much worse than he did (most of which amounts to cruel words) who were forgiven a while ago in this series.

Regardless, I'm just happy Isa *was* redeemed. That was my biggest want for KH3. I was afraid he was one of those characters who could only be redeemed through death, but thankfully that wasn't the case. If the rest of the fandom hates it, that's their prerogative. Either way, he is a part of RAX now in canon and that ain't gonna change.[/QUOTE]

I concur. This is exactly what's going on. They hate Saix and are taking that hatred out on Isa. They are blatantly ignoring Isa's canon characterization because they hate his Nobody. Saix was cruel to a walking talking doll (to him), and a fellow Nobody so apparently his human Isa must pay the price for all of eternity for that. Here's the thing though the canon shows Xion, Roxas, and Lea don't share that view.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

Woah woah, okay. Tell you the truth, I'm not a fan of how you articulated this last response. You don't need to keep repeating "This is canon" every two paragraphs and you certainly don't need to say "This is so false it hurts" and other stuff like that. People aren't blatantly ignoring source material just because they have a different opinion than yours.
It's not a form of debate I find particularly enjoyable.

With that out of the way, I wanna keep this a bit on the shorter side also because it's becoming less about the story of KH III and more about Nobodies and morality.
First of all, I just want to point out that I've never said anything about blaming Terra for Xemnas, ignoring Xehanort's evil deeds or that Isa doesn't get the chance to redeem himself. In truth my point advocates that Isa is in need of redemption the most, because what Saix did IS his fault. I'll be frank, at times reading your reply it seemed like you did contradict yourself here and there. Essentially you said that Nobodies change the person for worse and are twisted monsters, BUT they can also grow a heart which makes them NOT monsters, AND Vexen retained Even's good intentions so that's why he was good in KH III.
But... if Vexen could do that, why didn't he do that the first time he became a Nobody, since Even was such a good and candid soul. Why in that case the "Nobodyfication" turned him into that unfeeling monster.

Another canon part is that Xemnas, Roxas and Naminé are special Nobodies that developed a sense of self also due to the fact that Xehanort and Sora retained their rationality even as Heartless, and Kairi simply did not have one at all (this last part is admitedly less canon and more implied, but it's not my main point here). Okay.
So... barring Xemnas because of plot stuff and being already part of an evil group, only two Nobodies are considered "worthy" of existing as themselves: Roxas and Naminé.
Now, if Nobodies are these monsters (but apparently not, since as you yourself have admitted they can grow a heart, which makes them not monsters) that are responsible of their deeds unlike their human counterpart, why aren't Axel and Saix coming back and answer for their past actions?
If Saix is a no-no because it didn't grow a heart (though he definitely did) so he's still in the "twisted" state, well, Axel isn't. Why can't Axel come back, atone and then live his own life, showing the rest of the world that Nobodies can change? You can't tell me that Axel wouldn't do it because he's a twisted Nobody. He saved Sora and admitted was sorry for what he did to Kairi.
But no one in the good guys group ever mentions bringing back Axel. Because Axel, like all regular Nobodies, is just the prosecution of his human self. Lea is Axel, Axel is Lea.

Other point. Ansem The Wise writes in his reports that something went wrong with his apprentices, and that Darkness had sprouted in their hearts. His apprentices took part in his inhuman experiments, without ever stopping him or denouncing him to the public. They built a machine that spawns artificial Darkness.
They were still humans at the time and not Norted, despite the fact that KH III basically proved Nortification isn't nearly as strong and will-bending as you're making it out to be. Everyone did whatever they wanted. Sure, there was Darkness and probably Xehanort did manipulate them a bit, but I'm okay with that as a partial excuse for their actions. But "Nobodyfication" plays no part in this.
Considering we can't take KH III into account considering the very point we're debating on is precisely why the characters in that game act the way they do, we only have BbS to look at the Somebodies' behaviour. Except that there's a 10-11 years gap between that and what we see of the Nobodies, in which a lot can happen (especially with Ienzo who was only a child, unlike Zexion), such as the aforementioned experiments and Darkness corruption.

Plus there's other stuff I essentially already mentioned... Vexen's behaviour in KH III alone kinda disproves the whole thing about Nobodies being twisted distortions, as I've said. On the opposite side, Xigbar isn't any worse than Braig. Marluxia lost his memories (and we agree that has nothing to do with being turned into a Nobody), which in itself makes him a different case than Isa and there's still so much mystery surrounding his life that he can't really be hard proof of much. And even if something did happen to him, even if it was because of him becoming a Nobody, that doesn't make it an universal rule. If that happens I'll concede sometimes a personality switch can happen, but it doesn't change that other Nobodies don't follow that at all.

Also I've never hated Saix in my life and I certainly wouldn't do something as petty as "taking it out" on Isa, lol. I'd avoid making these assumptions about the people you're discussing with. Again, not a fan. Like, I'm glad you want to discuss and I do think and hope you didn't want to come on this strong, but it sort of happened.
Your idea of Nobodies isn't as solid as you think it is. And I simply don't believe is true or canon at all.


I've said my piece and made all my points several times now, so this is where I stop with this discussion, at least here.

 

[SerDuncan]

Alright, you've all convinced me of two things:

Spoiler Show

One, that Saix was most likely the person that Vexen and Demyx were working with. Up until this point, I hadn't really seen any convincing theories, or evidence, but based on everything gathered here it seems like there's a pretty darn good chance that's the case.

Second, you've changed my mind a little bit about Saix/Isa's redemption. I hadn't really thought about the fact that Axel=Lea or Ienzo=Zexion until now. So really, Isa is just a recompleted, less powerful version of Saix. Same memories, responsible for the same actions, etc. I also want to just say that I never hated Saix either: I just found him to be a really compelling secondary villain, and his rather quickly wrapped up redemption kinda soured that perspective of him for me.

However, something I don't really see in the last few posts is the one I feel is easily the most important: his motivation, aka the Mysterious Girl plot.

Here's the deal. I'm usually fine with retconning if it's done well: An example of bad retconning is taking the Force in the Star Wars series and turning it from a mystical power to a genetic predisposition based on the number of Midichlorians in your blood. Never foreshadowed in the original trilogy, something that was concocted and added in just for the first film to make Anakin seem more powerful. In Kingdom Hearts, I think that retconning Sora from being the ONLY Keyblade wielder, wielding THE Keyblade to making him one of many, was done poorly. An example of good retconning in Kingdom Hearts, however, would be, say, the cutscenes or bosses added in Final Mix versions of games. Or, as another example, Terra passing his keyblade down to Riku.

For Saix and Axel, however, I don't think that it's an example of a good retcon. While it is true that they had mysterious motives behind the scenes, the actual content of those motives was left a mystery for a long time. The way they speak about in game, and the way that it is discussed, doesn't really lead me to believe that they're speaking about the mysterious girl. I saw the one possible example, saying that maybe Saix needed to rise in the ranks to gain access to the girl but... I think that's shaky ground at best. It's good reasoning, but we don't any any evidence that this was the case.

Maybe I'm off base here, but it all feels like a giant asspull from Nomura to build up towards the sequels, as opposed to the continuation of a story he'd planned out very long in advance. Since that's how I feel about the backstory, his redemption felt hollow for me. When his redemption is built upon backstory that I already feel is shaky, it's hard to care as much, or enjoy it, or whatever. That's my perspective at least.

 

[fantasy08]

Woah woah, okay. Tell you the truth, I'm not a fan of how you articulated this last response. You don't need to keep repeating "This is canon" every two paragraphs and you certainly don't need to say "This is so false it hurts" and other stuff like that. People aren't blatantly ignoring source material just because they have a different opinion than yours.
It's not a form of debate I find particularly enjoyable.

With that out of the way, I wanna keep this a bit on the shorter side also because it's becoming less about the story of KH III and more about Nobodies and morality.
First of all, I just want to point out that I've never said anything about blaming Terra for Xemnas, ignoring Xehanort's evil deeds or that Isa doesn't get the chance to redeem himself. In truth my point advocates that Isa is in need of redemption the most, because what Saix did IS his fault. I'll be frank, at times reading your reply it seemed like you did contradict yourself here and there. Essentially you said that Nobodies change the person for worse and are twisted monsters, BUT they can also grow a heart which makes them NOT monsters, AND Vexen retained Even's good intentions so that's why he was good in KH III.
But... if Vexen could do that, why didn't he do that the first time he became a Nobody, since Even was such a good and candid soul. Why in that case the "Nobodyfication" turned him into that unfeeling monster.

Another canon part is that Xemnas, Roxas and Naminé are special Nobodies that developed a sense of self also due to the fact that Xehanort and Sora retained their rationality even as Heartless, and Kairi simply did not have one at all (this last part is admitedly less canon and more implied, but it's not my main point here). Okay.
So... barring Xemnas because of plot stuff and being already part of an evil group, only two Nobodies are considered "worthy" of existing as themselves: Roxas and Naminé.
Now, if Nobodies are these monsters (but apparently not, since as you yourself have admitted they can grow a heart, which makes them not monsters) that are responsible of their deeds unlike their human counterpart, why aren't Axel and Saix coming back and answer for their past actions?
If Saix is a no-no because it didn't grow a heart (though he definitely did) so he's still in the "twisted" state, well, Axel isn't. Why can't Axel come back, atone and then live his own life, showing the rest of the world that Nobodies can change? You can't tell me that Axel wouldn't do it because he's a twisted Nobody. He saved Sora and admitted was sorry for what he did to Kairi.
But no one in the good guys group ever mentions bringing back Axel. Because Axel, like all regular Nobodies, is just the prosecution of his human self. Lea is Axel, Axel is Lea.

Other point. Ansem The Wise writes in his reports that something went wrong with his apprentices, and that Darkness had sprouted in their hearts. His apprentices took part in his inhuman experiments, without ever stopping him or denouncing him to the public. They built a machine that spawns artificial Darkness.
They were still humans at the time and not Norted, despite the fact that KH III basically proved Nortification isn't nearly as strong and will-bending as you're making it out to be. Everyone did whatever they wanted. Sure, there was Darkness and probably Xehanort did manipulate them a bit, but I'm okay with that as a partial excuse for their actions. But "Nobodyfication" plays no part in this.
Considering we can't take KH III into account considering the very point we're debating on is precisely why the characters in that game act the way they do, we only have BbS to look at the Somebodies' behaviour. Except that there's a 10-11 years gap between that and what we see of the Nobodies, in which a lot can happen (especially with Ienzo who was only a child, unlike Zexion), such as the aforementioned experiments and Darkness corruption.

Plus there's other stuff I essentially already mentioned... Vexen's behaviour in KH III alone kinda disproves the whole thing about Nobodies being twisted distortions, as I've said. On the opposite side, Xigbar isn't any worse than Braig. Marluxia lost his memories (and we agree that has nothing to do with being turned into a Nobody), which in itself makes him a different case than Isa and there's still so much mystery surrounding his life that he can't really be hard proof of much. And even if something did happen to him, even if it was because of him becoming a Nobody, that doesn't make it an universal rule. If that happens I'll concede sometimes a personality switch can happen, but it doesn't change that other Nobodies don't follow that at all.

Also I've never hated Saix in my life and I certainly wouldn't do something as petty as "taking it out" on Isa, lol. I'd avoid making these assumptions about the people you're discussing with. Again, not a fan. Like, I'm glad you want to discuss and I do think and hope you didn't want to come on this strong, but it sort of happened.
Your idea of Nobodies isn't as solid as you think it is. And I simply don't believe is true or canon at all.


I've said my piece and made all my points several times now, so this is where I stop with this discussion, at least here.

Your new reply is the one that reads hostile to me. Also as I stated I simply came to debate and I don't see anything wrong with using facts to do that.

To me canon is the truest form to do so,and especially on this subject.

There were no contradictions in my post since they were based on facts,but there were a lot of world salad and opinions in yours.

Morality is already in this series because if it isn't then what is the point of atoning?

Again go back to BBS. You seem to want to ignore that even though its the clearest view(next to this game) of them being good people before Xehanort got a hold of them.Take another peak at them in this game as well. Do they act like sociopaths?

If it isn't canon that nobodies are pretty much severely twisted versions of their human selves, and that their default is a lack of having a conscious, then please explain why Isa and Saix are different? Ienzo and Zexion? Even and Vexen? Terra and Xenmas? Dilan and Xaldin etc.

You have yet to answer this with actual canon. You simply keep giving me your opinion.

The story isn't saying that humans are these angelic creatures, and that they will only do evil if they become a Nobody. Just look at Riku, Ansem, Master Xehanort,and The Apprentices,under Terra-Xehanort's guidance, to see how untrue that is.

However,again there is a key component missing from the Nobody that the human has.
This missing component is the biggest treasure in the the story. It is what makes them have the true choice to do right or wrong.

However,the issue is that you are pretty much saying that Nobodies should be held to the same moral standard as humans when that key component of the whole series is missing,and what's more even the series itself doesn't agree with you.

Even when Dream Drop Shark Jump came out it said that nobodies, and replica's apparently, could
possibly grow hearts not that they start out with them nor that they would ever grow one. It was simply a slim possibility.

Axel started to get a budding one due to his friendship with Xion and Roxas, but yet he still didn't fully get his conscious back until he was Lea. Axel was also quite the ahole in Re:Com, and to a lesser intent Days and Kh2, but Lea doesn't seem to be stuck on douchebag though.

Again on Vexen and all based on canon.

[QUOTE]Isa actually insist that Axel ultimately did him (Vexen) a favor by unknowingly restoring his humanity, and how that humanity was a precious gift (trying to make sure Vexen thoroughly understood what he was risking and giving up). That diologue shows that he was well aware that everyone in the Organization would ultimately lose themselves and their agency to Xehanort, but since he was "one of the chosen, his hands were tied" (In Vexen's own words).
[/QUOTE]

Exactly. This bit of conversation was especially important, and reinforces quite neatly the already established canon of nobodies becoming very twisted versions of themselves once their humanity is gone. Even was playing a dangerous game becoming a Nobody again.

Vexen also agreed to the plan with Saix when he was still EVEN. This is stated pretty blatantly in his secret report. He simply retained that plan when he became a Nobody again. Keeping their memories (twisted as they might become) has been canon since KH2.

Axel will never be Lea without Lea's heart.

The only heart part Saix had was Xehanort's because he most certainly never had Isa's until the ending clock tower scene and Destiny Islands.

Basically you seem to want me to ignore eight games of canon, that I've seen played out with my own eyes and ears as well as Nomura's interviews and Utimania, just because you can't seem to stand that the human of the guy who was mean to a doll(for Saix) and a Nobody are now hanging out with them.

Yea, I'm done to because I've said my piece to the point of going in circles by this point.

 

[SerDuncan]

Okay, you really... are kinda being a jerk here. There's a way to have a discussion, and then there's talking down to people and treating them like children.

Even when Dream Drop Shark Jump came out it said that nobodies, and replica's apparently, could possibly grow hearts not that they start out with them or that they would ever grow one. Axel started to get a budding one due to his friendship with Xion and Roxas, but yet he still didn't fully get his conscious back until he was Lea. Axel was also quite the ahole in Re:Com, and to a lesser intent Days and Kh2, but Lea doesn't seem to be stuck on sociopath/psychopath though.

I'm only bringing this up because you seem really stuck on what's CANON and what has EVIDENCE. All of this... is just your own theorizing. No one, EVER states whether or not Axel got his full consciousness back before he became Lea. Heck, we don't actually know if he ended up with a heart or not. There's no canon evidence, or Ultimania, or Interview, in any of the 8 games, that confirms the state of Axel's heart. You're just projecting here to support your argument. For all we know, he has a full heart, or maybe he still has no heart.

In DDD, we also establish that Xemnas lied to the Organization the entire time. For all we know, he might have lied about Nobodies not having hearts. Yen Sid could be wrong as well, as he was apparently wrong about Nobodies, considering they can grow hearts. It's clear at this point in the series that we can't always trust what every character says. They could be lying, they might not have all the information, there's tons of variables. You can't just cherry pick what supports your arguments and ignore the bigger picture.

If you'd like us to explain why Ienzo and Zexion are different, I've got a great argument that you'll love. Here's a quote from Vexen "Now I can help someone with my research. Now, I can atone". Here's a quote from Ienzo "I should have known better, I am truly deeply sorry." Both Vexen and Ienzo are taking responsibility for their actions as Nobodies, and as Somebodies. They both recognize that BEFORE they became Nobodies, they already had darkness within them, that began to corrupt them. Becoming nobodies and being lied to probably exacerbated that.

The way you talk about Canon, and facts, with the italics, it comes across as condescending. That's why Darkos got frustrated. It seems like you're talking down to the whole thread, instead of contributing and debating. That's what's pissing us off.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Exactly. This bit of conversation was especially important, and reinforces quite neatly the already established canon of nobodies becoming very twisted versions of themselves once their humanity is gone.

Well, it's very clear what is actually happening here. It's quite common actually. Sometimes, there're times when people try to enact their evaluations on objective grounds and facts retained within a story, but, in the process they also self-impose their own interpretations into processing said information that is given. The basis of your whole argument is from the viewpoint that establishes Nobodies as innately "twisted" (not necessarily just throw away semantics, as you enunciate this too often). This term, in and of itself, is a very specific framework of personality and emotion specifically. The fact that you insist so much on having this be the overall description of a Nobody that retains their body and soul—it shows a clear conflict between your own take away and what has been presented through the narrative of Kingdom Hearts.

Overall, just keep in mind that the idea presented in the game isn't conducive of them being "twisted", but rather the core aspect of lacking any emotions because of the lack of heart. These aren't exactly synonymous, but looking at some of the actions of Organization XIII members, it's understandable why you would initially equate the two. However, other than Roxas and Namine, who are emphasized to be their own, separate people because of the living Sora and Kairi—also Xemnas, who is similar to them in his own complicated conception—the other Organization Nobodies are still closely tied to being the same person, but because of the circumstance, they are different than what they'd normally be like. For them, it's understood as a different state of being rather than being two different people completely. I'm not sure why that's confusing, to be honest. Even from how they all retain such consciousness of what they did and how they acted as Nobodies supports this concept that is told through the narrative. Also, even before the massive reveal of Xemnas/Xehanort's trickery to what he lead the members to believe about themselves, we could understand through storytelling alone that Nobodies weren't fully incapable of having an emotional capacity outside of being a facade of projected memories. Axel was the main one in KH2, and despite Roxas and Namine's special existence, this is still a concept proven through them. DDD just emphasized the reasoning behind what happened to Axel in KH2, and how this is paralleled to the different ways the Organization members acted (even Saix, who has also shown a capacity of emotions during his "death" in KH2). I think the narrative really tells how Xemnas' lies had a hand in the actions that certain members made, and unfortunately, how they relayed their emotions through the emptiness. It's understood well in the narrative that Xemnas manipulated the other Nobodies, leading them to believe they could never have a capacity for real emotion, no heart, and even that they truly didn't exist. Now don't get me wrong, the idea is that some of them "pretended" to have emotions through the memories they had when fully alive, but even this is something that is lead by the duality of their lack of emotion and drive to regain a heart—which again, coincides with the lie exposed in DDD. There's actually a lot of interesting parallels between Organization XIII and a "cult" mindset that could be understood because of Xemnas' influence over them. But, maybe that's a whole other conversation.

As for the rest of the conversation, I mean, I personally don't find any fault in Isa being forgiven. It was a bit jarring to just see him being around the others casually, but it works on the preface of assumption that the awkwardness of conforming had been dealt with. Being a Nobody (besides Roxas and Namine—who centered on a narrative of being their own individuals) is something that's more conducive to being in a different state of being from their full self, and it's very clear that even with a regained heart, a handful of Organization XIII members have something to bear from their time as Nobodies. Ienzo expresses a similar notion when he first calls Sora (and how this correlated to their time before being Nobodies), and the fact that Even feels the need to atone is retained here as well. But, what could be understood (similar Sora's approach to Riku's actions in KH) is that none of the heroes are ready to hang any of them at dawn because of the circumstances they were in. This doesn't mean that the ones involved themselves are completely innocent, or that they even personally feel completely innocent—but it does mean that there is a window of redeemable nature for most involved. With how much Isa is connected to Lea, this is understandable even for him. The initial distrust that Sora, Donald, and Goofy displayed to Ienzo could've been more emphasized in reflection of Roxas and Xion for Isa, but the end intention overall is still there regardless.

 

[fantasy08]

Okay, you really... are kinda being a jerk here. There's a way to have a discussion, and then there's talking down to people and treating them like children.



I'm only bringing this up because you seem really stuck on what's CANON and what has EVIDENCE. All of this... is just your own theorizing. No one, EVER states whether or not Axel got his full consciousness back before he became Lea. Heck, we don't actually know if he ended up with a heart or not. There's no canon evidence, or Ultimania, or Interview, in any of the 8 games, that confirms the state of Axel's heart. You're just projecting here to support your argument. For all we know, he has a full heart, or maybe he still has no heart.

In DDD, we also establish that Xemnas lied to the Organization the entire time. For all we know, he might have lied about Nobodies not having hearts. Yen Sid could be wrong as well, as he was apparently wrong about Nobodies, considering they can grow hearts. It's clear at this point in the series that we can't always trust what every character says. They could be lying, they might not have all the information, there's tons of variables. You can't just cherry pick what supports your arguments and ignore the bigger picture.

If you'd like us to explain why Ienzo and Zexion are different, I've got a great argument that you'll love. Here's a quote from Vexen "Now I can help someone with my research. Now, I can atone". Here's a quote from Ienzo "I should have known better, I am truly deeply sorry." Both Vexen and Ienzo are taking responsibility for their actions as Nobodies, and as Somebodies. They both recognize that BEFORE they became Nobodies, they already had darkness within them, that began to corrupt them. Becoming nobodies and being lied to probably exacerbated that.

The way you talk about Canon, and facts, with the italics, it comes across as condescending. That's why Darkos got frustrated. It seems like you're talking down to the whole thread, instead of contributing and debating. That's what's pissing us off.

If I'm pissing you off then maybe you, and the other one, should stop replying to me then. It's not my problem if canon hurts you nor is my use of italics. They are simply used for emphasis not to piss you off. Maybe calm down. Were just talking about a game here.

I didn't need Dream Drop Shark Jump, nor secondary canon like the Ultimania or Nomura interviews, to blatantly tell me that Axel, Roxas, and Xion were the ones Xenmas was referring to when he said that some were beginning to have burgeoning replacements. I mean after Days who else could he possibly be referring to? Context Clues exists in all storytelling. I didn't need to be beat over the head.

I've said my piece on Vexen.

 

[SerDuncan]

I didn't need Dream Drop Shark Jump, nor secondary canon like the Ultimania or Nomura interviews, to blatantly tell me that Axel, Roxas, and Xion were the ones Xenmas was referring to when he said that some were beginning to have burgeoning replacements. I mean after Days who else could he possibly be referring to? Context Clues exists in all storytelling. I didn't need to be beat over the head.

It could be... Xigbar, who displayed potential emotion in interactions with Sora. It could be Vexen who appeared legitimately scared when confronted by Axel or legitimately frustrated by his replica's failures. It could be Zexion, who expressed fear and terror when confronted with the Riku Replica and Axel. It could be Saix, who displayed emotion at his death or displayed anger against Roxas when he left the Organization. It could be Axel, obviously. It could be Demyx who appeared to display real fear in his interactions with Sora AND at his moment of death. It could be Marluxia, who got noticeably angry at Sora in their final battle and screamed in frustration upon death. It could be Larxene, who appeared genuinely annoyed with Sora, Riku and Namine during the events of COM and scared upon death. And then, Roxas and Xion. That's not even including Xemnas at the end of KH2 who also appeared angry that his plans failed and at his death. I mean, you can't possibly say blatantly. How can anyone tell which of these emotions are manufactured and which ones are real? Of all the Org members, the only ones who I could say seemed truly emotionless were Lexaeus, Xaldin, and Luxord (and Luxord only because he died rather quickly) and even then, Lexaeus displayed absolute loyalty to Zexion. Was that manufactured too? Towards what end?

Your evidence is based upon your purely subjective deductions. There are even entries in in 358/2 Days secret reports that suggest other members might be experiencing emotions. Context clues exist in this storytelling all over the place, but only if you choose to see them.

 

[Graceful Schemer]

I'm pretty sure he found out from experimenting on Subject X. Secret Report 3 is Apprentice Xehanort saying he'll use the same experiments he was doing on himself to look through her memories. The four friends are mostly likely the original selves of Marluxia, Larxene, Demyx, and Luxord.

I see.

Spoiler Show

If this is the case, that would make Subject X a new character? Since, if it is Skuld, the four friends should not be these four. Then, we have Ventus. Ephermer can be bypassed since he has not 'shown' up in the present per say and Brain is still missing. There is also the Ava either being Subject X or Nameless Star. Pretty sure Ava has no one that fits Nameless Star's description perfectly compared to Strelitzia. Either way, I can see the rumor of the direction's focus of what comes after being true.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

Now I'm just regretting I've even tried getting in a conversation with you, fantasy08. Such a pity you couldn't bring your own contribution without being a bit of a jerk who feels like she needs to beat the other person's thesis six feet under in the ground and not even feeling sorry about it.
...you know, I think I now get why you like Isa and claim he did nothing wrong. It's rather poetic actually.

Whatever, it is my policy to not discuss with those who won't respect me, so moving along.

I see.

Spoiler Show

If this is the case, that would make Subject X a new character? Since, if it is Skuld, the four friends should not be these four. Then, we have Ventus. Ephermer can be bypassed since he has not 'shown' up in the present per say and Brain is still missing. There is also the Ava either being Subject X or Nameless Star. Pretty sure Ava has no one that fits Nameless Star's description perfectly compared to Strelitzia. Either way, I can see the rumor of the direction's focus of what comes after being true.

What Fudge said indeed brings a new perspective in the mix. It is possible the girl could be an entirely new character and Nomura is playing with us making us think it's gotta be a character we know of (especially considering that I think the ambiguity about the girl being either Ava or Skuld is intended).

I still think it's probably one of those two but who knows. The interesting part is that according to the reports she's still around but it's been years, so should we try and look for her we shouldn't look for a teenager, but someone older (thankfully it can't be Kairi's Grandma).

 

[DraceEmpressa]

CMIIW, but didn't Nomura said KH3 will bring lights to the union leaders future?

Ventus- Sleeping for 10 years in Castle Oblivion
Lauriam-Become Marluxia

Spoiler Show

Ephemer- A specter hanging out in Keyblade Graveyard, likely dead.
Brain-Likely Eraqus' ancestor and built Scala
Strelitzia-Likely become Nameless Star and waited for Lauriam for who knows how long
Skuld- Likely become Subject X and no one knows her whereabout after Luxu freed her

.....
And none of them are already an adult when things happened.... Geez...

 

[Graceful Schemer]

CMIIW, but didn't Nomura said KH3 will bring lights to the union leaders future?

Ventus- Sleeping for 10 years in Castle Oblivion
Lauriam-Become Marluxia

Spoiler Show

Ephemer- A specter hanging out in Keyblade Graveyard, likely dead.
Brain-Likely Eraqus' ancestor and built Scala
Strelitzia-Likely become Nameless Star and waited for Lauriam for who knows how long
Skuld- Likely become Subject X and no one knows her whereabout after Luxu freed her

.....
And none of them are already an adult when things happened.... Geez...

I think he simply said that we will feel their presences.

Spoiler Show

For Nameless Star, while I'm leaning toward Strelitzia, there are a few things. Might be a translation thing, but the 'he' is being referred to as friend here instead of brother, but the Star might just not correct Sora. Either way, his reaction suggests that it is someone he knew, so Ephemera-Skuld is unlikely. Ava does not have anyone that fits since Gula is very well active. Luxu is plausible with the replacement clause, but not any other things. Another thing I have seen people mentioning is that it is Subject X and she is referring to Isa which is plausible since he too has his heart replaced by another. I would say 50% changed beyond recognition. It does not seem like he changed that much, but from the perspective of Subject X, that might be the case.

 

[KeybladeLordSora]

So, lemme see if I got this correct.

Spoiler Show

The power of waking isn't meant to be used to bring people back?

 

[Ballad of Caius]

There's something no one here has addressed:

WE DIDN'T GET ZEBRA-STRIPPED XEMNAS!

 

[Graceful Schemer]

Now that I think about it,

Spoiler Show

Nameless Star is not too likely to be talking about Isa since he is already distressed at her absence which started the whole thing rather than will be distressed.

 

[Elysium]

If you'd like us to explain why Ienzo and Zexion are different, I've got a great argument that you'll love. Here's a quote from Vexen "Now I can help someone with my research. Now, I can atone". Here's a quote from Ienzo "I should have known better, I am truly deeply sorry." Both Vexen and Ienzo are taking responsibility for their actions as Nobodies, and as Somebodies. They both recognize that BEFORE they became Nobodies, they already had darkness within them, that began to corrupt them. Becoming nobodies and being lied to probably exacerbated that.

Well, there’s a difference, isn’t there? Even and Ienzo caused the apocalypse we see in KH1. Isa was just some random who lost his heart, who we learn in KH3 was apparently only involved with the Apprentices at all because he and Lea were trying to free some girl that was being experimented on. Even and Ienzo needed to apologize for their behavior prior to becoming Nobodies, those actions that caused Nobodies to be created in the first place, not for what happened while they were Nobodies missing their hearts and being manipulated by Xehanort.

We don't have any reason to believe Saix ever developed a heart. RAX only developed hearts through their interactions with one another. The fact that Axel hadn't developed one prior to meeting Roxas despite interacting with Saix means Saix wouldn't have developed one just because of his interactions with Axel either. And as soon as Isa is recompleted (then snatched and norted), he conspired with Even to rescue Ansem the Wise and revive Namine and Roxas.

 

[Ballad of Caius]

By the way, I love how Ansem SoD is used to represent Apprentice Xehanort, seeing as how that 'nort doesn't exist anymore.

 

[FudgemintGuardian]

There's something no one here has addressed:

WE DIDN'T GET ZEBRA-STRIPPED XEMNAS!

I'M TRYING NOT TO THINK ABOUT IT! THIS IS THE WORST POSSIBLE DECISION NOMURA COULD HAVE MADE AND IT RUINS THE WHOLE GAME! ;A;

 

[Sephiroth0812]

So, lemme see if I got this correct.

Spoiler Show

The power of waking isn't meant to be used to bring people back?

Not exactly, why do you think that?

Spoiler Show

As far as I understand it, Sora just uses it wrong and too often in quick succession which results in him overtaxing his own heart.

I think Young Xehanort uses an analogy as to exactly what is done wrong but I haven't played those scenes yet myself.

If the power would not be meant to do that Yen Sid wouldn't have them learn it to do exactly this in the first place. Both Mickey and Riku have this power too and no one stated it being "wrong" when Riku uses it in DDD to bring Sora back.

So I think the issue is not that the power isn't meant to be used to bring people back (which is its main purpose after all) but how it is used and how often.

Meta-wise it certainly serves as a sort of limiter to help keeping this power from being overpowered so it makes sense that if used too often in quick succession it increases the danger for the one using it.