[quote]Welcome back first of all and I'm sorry to be kinda confrontational during your comeback, but I disagree with this interpreation of Nobodies.
Roxas, NaminÃ© and Axel were Nobodies (the latter especially isn't even an exception or an anomaly so what goes for him goes for all Nobodies) and they were good people with a conciousness. There's almost nothing separating a Nobody from his human counterpart, to the point that Lea doesn't even mind being called Axel, because Axel is who he was. Nobodies are totally capable of being held accountable for their actions. I think Ienzo's change is only due of personal growth and not because he's a person now: Vexen is a Nobody again in KH III, but he want to atone too. Again, Nobodies aren't necessarily twisted. It's a choice they make exactly as humans do.
Little is still known about Xehanort's influence and how long he was in some people, but even in this case I do not feel like Isa has excuses. Xigbar and Demyx were Norted before and after him, but they still retained their own personalities and goals, and carried out their own plans even under Xehanort's influence (and so did Isa, if he was the one contacting Vexen). So I'm sorry, but most of the shitty things Saix did are Isa's fault.
Terra is a different matter because he was indeed in a Horcrux situation: Terra was split in essentially three parts, two of which were kept on a literal leash by Xehanort. Terra's main fault is that he's dumb rather than his willingness in doing bad things.
Riku had the longest and most detailed redemption arc in the series and Ansem The Wise has been shown struck with painful remorse in every scene after KH II, and in KH III does his best to atone. As I said, the main thing I have issues with Isa's redemption is that he almost doesn't feel guilty at all. [/QUOTE]
Hi, and thanks.:biggrin: I don't see it as confrontational. Weâ€™re just debating. It's fine.
It's not an interpretation though. It's canon.
Go back to BBS. Also look at the human selves of past nobodies in this game. Do they act like sociopaths?
It has nothing to do with personal growth, but atonement towards what he did as a Nobody. They do still retain their nobodies memories after all. Ienzo does not act like Zexion. This is blatantly canon. What is the difference? Isa, in both BBS and his return at the end, does not act like Saix. What is the difference? Also we learn Isa and Lea were the only comfort to an imprisoned like an animal young girl. What an evil shitball. Demyx was always a mellower nobody. This didn't stop him from trying to kill Sora in Kh2 though.
Xigbar was always a douchebag, with is own plans even as a human, and they're even more horrible then we thought considering who he really is. You know who wasn't though? Isa, Ienzo, Even, Dilan, and Aleueus. What could possibly have changed to make them be such raging assholes? I wonder, I wonder.
Nope we're not ignoring the influence of Xehanort either. Little is known about Xehanortâ€™s horcrux influence? Really? So you're just going to outright ignore Xehanortâ€™s monstrous characterization and deeds then?
Also did Isa have yellow eyes and pointy ears? Terra's hair was always silver/white right? Also was Terra a douche to?
To add more and more helpings to this the Nameless Star point blank says that the person she's looking to save her has been heart jacked by another and is therefore not themselves, but if they were they would be horribly distraught about what happened to her. There's strong implications she's talking about Marluxia or if she's the missing girl than it's Isa.
Nevertheless, regardless of which one is being referenced, what are they both now?
A Nobody and a heart tank for Xehanort.
So on top of Isa becoming an abomination of nature he also had the horucrux of the biggest monster in the series in him. You know who else did? Terra.
Xenmas is Terra and Xenehort's nobody. This is canon. So again should I blame Terra for Xemnas actions?
Also Apprentice Terra-Xenehort was still human, and yet he helped do horrible, horrible things to Ansem, his apprentices, and the RG citizens. Should I blame Terra for that to?
Basically I'm simply putting the blame when it comes to Isa, Terra, and the rest of the nobodies turned humans, on where the narrative says I should. Xehanort and Nobodification.
When Dream Drop Shark Jump came out it said that nobodies, and replica's apparently, could possibly grow hearts not that they start out with them nor that they would ever grow one. Axel started to get a budding one back due to his friendship with Xion and Roxas, but yet he still didn't fully get his conscious back until he was Lea. Axel was also quite the ahole in Re:Com, and to a lesser intent in Days and Kh2,but yet Lea isn't stuck on douchebag.
Again why does Lea get to atone for his actions as Axel, but Isa doesn't get to for Saix?
Riku and Ansem the Wise get more blame for their evil deeds because there is a key component missing in a Nobody that isn't in a human. This is blatant canon. However, if Riku and Ansem have the right to atone for all the heinous things they did with a heart then Isa and the rest should get to atone for what they did as nobodies.
Lea has been called Axel for 12 years instead of his true name. Even when he came back as Lea he kept having to tell people to call him that instead of Axel. However, his nobody is all they knew him as so he just gave up and said Axel is fine. It had nothing to do with 'proof' of a Nobody and their human selves being exactly the same person. This line of thinking is canonically false.
If it isn't canon that nobodies are pretty much severely twisted versions of their human selves, and that their default is a lack of having a conscious, then explain why Isa and Saix are different? Ienzo and Zexion? Even and Vexen? Terra and Xenmas? Dilan and Xaldin etc. Again there seems to be a key component missing from the Nobody that the human has. Oh, What Oh, What could it possibly be?
[QUOTE]Isa actually insist that Axel ultimately did him (Vexen) a favor by unknowingly restoring his humanity, and how that humanity was a precious gift (trying to make sure Vexen thoroughly understood what he was risking and giving up). That diologue shows that he was well aware that everyone in the Organization would ultimately lose themselves and their agency to Xehanort, but since he was "one of the chosen, his hands were tied" (In Vexen's own words).
Exactly. This bit of conversation was especially important, and reinforces quite neatly the already established canon of nobodies becoming very twisted versions of themselves once their humanity is gone. Even was playing a dangerous game becoming a Nobody again.
[QUOTE]While I get that Vexen's words COULD be interpreted to mean Saix, we honestly don't have any clue one way or the other. Considering that Isa/Saix never mentions it, and that we don't actually get to see the researchers making the replica or anything like that, it really could be any number of people. I understand that saying it's Saix could make his character in KH3 a lot better, but I'd like to see hard evidence, or at least SOME kind of evidence beyond theorizing that it's him before I hop on that train. [/QUOTE]
Read Vexen's reports. He says as Even that a man younger than him, and who also used to be the second in command of the old organization, approached him with a plan. Then later we see him, and what do you know Saix, talking to each other. Then Marluxia also brings up Saix and Vexen. I mean it's not blatantly saying Saix is Vexen's partner in crime, but based on strong context clues it's pretty much screaming it.
Vexen also agreed to the plan with Saix when he was still Even. This is stated pretty blatantly in his secret report. He simply retained that plan when he became a Nobody again. Keeping their memories (twisted as they might become) has been canon since KH2.
[QUOTE]I agree with both of you on everything, really. I think people are superimposing their own feelings about Saix/Isa onto the character, because it's clear from Roxas's and Xion's reactions to Saix's 'death' scene and the fact that they're all on the tower together at the end that they aren't carrying any resentment. And there are others who did much worse than he did (most of which amounts to cruel words) who were forgiven a while ago in this series.
Regardless, I'm just happy Isa *was* redeemed. That was my biggest want for KH3. I was afraid he was one of those characters who could only be redeemed through death, but thankfully that wasn't the case. If the rest of the fandom hates it, that's their prerogative. Either way, he is a part of RAX now in canon and that ain't gonna change.[/QUOTE]
I concur. This is exactly what's going on. They hate Saix and are taking that hatred out on Isa. They are blatantly ignoring Isa's canon characterization because they hate his Nobody. Saix was cruel to a walking talking doll (to him), and a fellow Nobody so apparently his human Isa must pay the price for all of eternity for that. Here's the thing though the canon shows Xion, Roxas, and Lea don't share that view.