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KH3 was just three original worlds away from surpassing 2FM.



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Face My Fears

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Eh, I agree that he is the kind of guy who let people do stuff for him, but he still barely shows up and this is not like KH1 where we didn't really know Maleficent was a fluke, the Org were right there at the start. He could have stayed in his place and let mostly Saïx and Xigbar deal with Sora but the game could have given us cutscenes of him giving them orders, or more insight on who he was, similar to the Aqua-Armor cutscene.
I like Xemnas, I think he is a good character, just not a good main villain. He's there just for being a Xehanort which, to me, is not enough.

Regarding the completition, yeah, KH3 is barely longer in regular playthroughs, but the game FEELS lenghtier by default, which is easier to understand why:

- In KH2 we go through each world twice, with the game having a middle part when we return to Radiant Garden. This doesn't really happen in 3 and we go through each full world once, more similar to what KH1 did (but the worlds feel larger because they are big and mostly fresh, KH1 (and 2) had us go through the same maps multiple times throughout the story)
- I feel like there's more fighting in 3 compared to the first 2 games in general. Probably because the maps are bigger and the way respawn works is different, as the first two had a limit and we had to exit the world and walk in again if we wanted to farm levels. In 3 if you are exploring you'll encounter fights pretty much all the time.
- There's less "filler" this time. The other two games had a lot of nearly-meaningless parts with little gameplay that were there mostly for story chunks, like the whole Destiny Island section of KH1 and most of our first run of Traverse Town (which was very nerfed and we don't really get Magic until later on, for ex), 2 as a whole starts with Roxas and even when we get Sora back it still takes a while until we are playing the game properly.
3 Replaced all of that with lenghty cutscenes which made all the gameplay sections purely gameplay, which has it's perks and downsides, I guess.
- Gummi Ships are an actual timesink in 3 and not just a quick breeze like in 1 or 2; there's bosses now as well.

That aside, I finished KH2fm+ with around 40 to 50 hours, I think. I got to around level 70, finished exploring everything, maxed forms, etc. Only things left were getting Ultima and then grinding to 99 to do the Data Fights. Do you think getting everything in vanilla KH3 could take around the same time, since I haven't done that yet?
To get the Platinum trophy for KH3 on Proud mode (I did that in my first save file when KH3 came out), it took be around 60 hours. Maybe it's because I went manually looking for the Lucky Emblems in the worlds, as well as just doing random moments of going to worlds and fighting... but I think if you just focus on doing everything in the base game (vanilla KH3), it should be about 40-50 hours.
 

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I think we're coming at KH from two very different angles, because the things you're listing would never be filler for me xD
Don't get me wrong, I don't mean filler as in I didn't enjoy them or don't want those sections back. I meant filler as in those were replaced by cutscenes in 3 as the gameplay we had for them was very minimal in the long run.
Those sections weren't really meant to be played like regular worlds and were there purely for immersion or to tell a scene, something they now do through lenghty cutscenes.
 

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Don't get me wrong, I don't mean filler as in I didn't enjoy them or don't want those sections back. I meant filler as in those were replaced by cutscenes in 3 as the gameplay we had for them was very minimal in the long run.
Those sections weren't really meant to be played like regular worlds and were there purely for immersion or to tell a scene, something they now do through lenghty cutscenes.
Okay, I get you now but I personally feel the decision to make these playable sections into cutscenes was to KH3's detriment.
 

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Where was the quality for original worlds in KH3?
I had that same though reading that, lol. KG isn't as good as Hollow Bastion and TWTNW while also being shorter? It doesn't win the comparison for me on either quality or quantity. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the ending to KH3, but since we're discussing which we prefer...

Now, if we were discussing the Final Door stuff, I'd give you a different ranking. I enjoyed the final fights of KH3 over those of KH1 or KH2. I never really got enjoyment out of the fighting Ansem SOD or the veiny ship at the end, although the torn up Destiny Islands is cool to look at. I hate every form of Xemnas, and don't get any enjoyment out of those fights. As far as what happens after the fights... That's a close one. I love Riku & Sora's conversation at the end of 2, but otherwise I prefer the ending cinematics to 3 and 1 as well (and they have the better music). I always loved how 3 re-uses the orchestra music from KH1 before DTT.
 
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Like I said, it's fine to feel that way, but those people should acknowledge that it's only to the series detriment to raise one aspect over the other. We should all strive for a balance, regardless of how we feel about certain aspects.
People can wish for things they enjoy (especially because games are not free). If a certain aspect of KH is reducing their enjoyment, it's their right to wish there was less of it.
 

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People can wish for things they enjoy (especially because games are not free). If a certain aspect of KH is reducing their enjoyment, it's their right to wish there was less of it.
I'll keep this in mind for whenever I try to start a shitshow by announcing how KH would be better off with Fox over Disney properties, My cousin Vinny > Ducktales
 

Face My Fears

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Okay, I get you now but I personally feel the decision to make these playable sections into cutscenes was to KH3's detriment.
Honestly I would have preferred Sora go to Radiant Garden and talk to Ienzo face-to-face in cutscene, rather than having Radiant Garden as a world with one or two small rooms to "explore" and the only purpose of the world is to walk up to Ienzo and initiate a cutscene. I wasn't a big fan of the Gummiphone being used to expedite important conversations, but I'm also not really a fan of a "world" being included just for a few maps with nothing to actually do. Even though Twilight Town was basically 3 different locations, it had one location with heartless, lucky emblems, chests, and access to two minigames (Bistro/100 Acre Wood). If Radiant Garden had access to data fights, an area with heartless, chests, lucky emblems, and some more stuff I can see it being justified as a world to "explore" even if it were just 2 or 3 areas. But the only purpose Radiant Garden served storywise was Ienzo in the Tron room.
 

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I agree with most of your post except this
But the only purpose Radiant Garden served storywise was Ienzo in the Tron room.
Even within the context of the KH3 we got, there was more to radiant garden than just ienzo exposition. Dilan and aeleus were there and would have definitely been voiced if it was a fully fledged world. Not to mention that Leon and crew would almost certainly be in too with all their sub plots.

A bigger reason is Kairi and Lea's training, 100 acre woods (as merlin would have no reason to visit twilight town) but by far the biggest reason would be Riku and Mickey's detour there to fix their keyblades and find information. I'm not even including some of the org stuff that takes place here too.

Even with a significantly reduced role it seems radiant garden can't help but be the centre of a few sub plots anyway.
 

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Face My Fears

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I agree with most of your post except this

Even within the context of the KH3 we got, there was more to radiant garden than just ienzo exposition. Dilan and aeleus were there and would have definitely been voiced if it was a fully fledged world. Not to mention that Leon and crew would almost certainly be in too with all their sub plots.

A bigger reason is Kairi and Lea's training, 100 acre woods (as merlin would have no reason to visit twilight town) but by far the biggest reason would be Riku and Mickey's detour there to fix their keyblades and find information. I'm not even including some of the org stuff that takes place here too.

Even with a significantly reduced role it seems radiant garden can't help but be the centre of a few sub plots anyway.
Kairi and Lea's training happened... no one knows. If they really wanted to use Radiant Garden, they could have just had Merlin magic up a time capsule training area there. However, it seems to me that they don't want Kairi going back to Radiant Garden (just yet). It's her home world, yet they've actively kept her away from there since KH1.

To quote Master Spocknort in another discussion about KH3: "Aeleus who?" In a game that was already jam-packed with characters, having Aeleus and Dilan voiced seems meaningless. Having them as guards with no lines or appearing at all was nice, but fans were clearly pissed that they got to appear over the FF crew. I can just imagine if they did Radiant Garden and gave Aeleus and Dilan lines, but didn't have the FF crew, fans would have been even more vexed.

I don't think any Organization stuff happens at Radiant Garden. The only Organization stuff is Demyx delivering the replicas and Ansem The Wise/Vexen going back. Of course, as I've said in other posts, they could have just put everything that happened in Twilight Town in Radiant Garden (including the fight between Ansem and Hayner/Pence/Olette). They could swap out HPO and put the Final Fantasy crew to save their original leader Ansem The Wise. It would have also allowed the FF crew to be in the end video on Sora's home world as part of the party. Oh well, Nomura preferred HPO over FF crew.
 

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Kairi and Lea's training happened... no one knows. If they really wanted to use Radiant Garden, they could have just had Merlin magic up a time capsule training area there. However, it seems to me that they don't want Kairi going back to Radiant Garden (just yet). It's her home world, yet they've actively kept her away from there since KH1.

To quote Master Spocknort in another discussion about KH3: "Aeleus who?" In a game that was already jam-packed with characters, having Aeleus and Dilan voiced seems meaningless. Having them as guards with no lines or appearing at all was nice, but fans were clearly pissed that they got to appear over the FF crew. I can just imagine if they did Radiant Garden and gave Aeleus and Dilan lines, but didn't have the FF crew, fans would have been even more vexed.

I don't think any Organization stuff happens at Radiant Garden. The only Organization stuff is Demyx delivering the replicas and Ansem The Wise/Vexen going back. Of course, as I've said in other posts, they could have just put everything that happened in Twilight Town in Radiant Garden (including the fight between Ansem and Hayner/Pence/Olette). They could swap out HPO and put the Final Fantasy crew to save their original leader Ansem The Wise. It would have also allowed the FF crew to be in the end video on Sora's home world as part of the party. Oh well, Nomura preferred HPO over FF crew.
The fact of the matter is that even as a cutscene only world RG was packed with little sub plots, and main plot tidbits. Anymore and it would be unreasonable for it to be a cutscene only world. Like I said, I didn't even mention the possibility of subplots that didn't make it to KH3. Why are you so fixated on the state of Radiant Garden as it currently stands, as if that would be exactly how the world would play out if it was fully playable?

It stands to reason it would be expanded upon if it was made as large as disney worlds. And like @GreyouTT said, its a bit of a double standard to say that these worlds offered very little or nothing when in terms of plot relevance they had more to give than practically any disney world. Even with them being castrated.
 

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In a game that was already jam-packed with characters, having Aeleus and Dilan voiced seems meaningless. Having them as guards with no lines or appearing at all was nice, but fans were clearly pissed that they got to appear over the FF crew. I can just imagine if they did Radiant Garden and gave Aeleus and Dilan lines, but didn't have the FF crew, fans would have been even more vexed.
Yes, RG appearing without the FF characters would be as upsetting as Twilight Town is without Seifer. Seems like there was yet another alternative that you ignored though: a Radiant Garden with a voiced Dilan and Aeleus that also features FF characters.

I don't think any Organization stuff happens at Radiant Garden.
No offense intended here, but you continue to say that only what is seen onscreen in KH3 is all that could ever have happened in a world. Just because Nomura chose not to do something, doesn't mean it could not have happened. There are plenty of things that could have (and should have) happened, including, as you mentioned, Kairi visiting her home world. That reveals Nomura's flaws as a writer more than it does Radiant Garden's irrelevance, jmo. What he chooses to care about and not care about has no connection with something's actual story potential. I mean, as much as I don't like Kairi, there's no denying he could have found something more for her to do in most of the KH games. The fact that nothing was done with the character isn't a reflection on the character so much as it's a reflection on Nomura.
 

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Yes, RG appearing without the FF characters would be as upsetting as Twilight Town is without Seifer. Seems like there was yet another alternative that you ignored though: a Radiant Garden with a voiced Dilan and Aeleus that also features FF characters.

No offense intended here, but you continue to say that only what is seen onscreen in KH3 is all that could ever have happened in a world. Just because Nomura chose not to do something, doesn't mean it could not have happened. There are plenty of things that could have (and should have) happened, including, as you mentioned, Kairi visiting her home world. That reveals Nomura's flaws as a writer more than it does Radiant Garden's irrelevance, jmo. What he chooses to care about and not care about has no connection with something's actual story potential. I mean, as much as I don't like Kairi, there's no denying he could have found something more for her to do in most of the KH games. The fact that nothing was done with the character isn't a reflection on the character so much as it's a reflection on Nomura.
I agree with you that what happened isn't all that could ever happen. I even said before that they could have transplanted the Twilight Town story into Radiant Garden easily. They could have come up with all sorts of stuff to happen in Radiant Garden or any world. Like you said, it boils down to Nomura and the story he wanted (and was allowed) to tell. Radiant Garden isn't as important to Nomura as it used to be. Not just Radiant Garden, but also the FF characters that reside there.

Was there loads of potential for Radiant Garden in KH3? Absolutely. Same with Twilight Town, same with Keyblade Graveyard, same with Corona, Toy Box, Olympus, Arendelle, 100 Acre Wood. The fact is that we don't know what was going on behind the scenes that resulted in what we got. We can speculate Nomura didn't want to expand on Radiant Garden because of his feelings towards FF at that point in time or we can speculate that there were time constraints. Same can go for the Disney worlds - what did Disney tell Nomura he could or could not do? We will never know.

Blaming Nomura for every fault in the game isn't fair. I don't think that fans should just "shut up and accept what you get", but I think the response to KH3 should be a learning experience for Nomura, Disney and Square Enix on how games should be released in 2020. I think Nomura and the team has learned from KH3. When it first released and they got all that negative response, I think Nomura took it to heart. If ReMIND is a sign of things to come, I am very hopeful gameplay-wise and main story-wise. The only concern I genuinely have moving forward with the series is Disney-wise because Disney is now a media giant that is extremely protective of its IPs. With that said, maybe Nomura should rethink his position on Radiant Garden (which I think has happened given recent KHUX stuff).
 
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