Is it wrong to critque the series so much?

[MrFranklin95]

So I've been hanging out on Twitter for the last few months. I've had good interaction here and there but everytime I brought a criticism or anything that worries me a out the future of the series, I get dogpiled very easily. And its pretty frustrating honestly. I don't do it to openly attack people or anything but I also feel I can't be honest about a series I still genuinely love but I have some reservations about over the years. I don't feel I should hold my opinions back all the time out of fear backlash that I'm making people feel bad about something they like which isn't my goal at all

And a lot of the time its over KH3. Like, I don't want to speak for anyone who is on twitter as well and I apologize if I offend anyone but everytime with KH3, fans get super defensive about it. All the time. I don't even hate Kingdom Hearts 3 but the game has problems and if I see a tweet saying something I disagree with, I want to make a counterpoint and give my thoughts and suddenly I'm the bad guy for it.

Maybe I'm overthinking it idk I just now feel like I can't talk about the series openly anymore. Like, I have to talk about it positively 24/7 everytime. Maybe its also just a societal que that maybe I'm just not getting because I know not everyone doesn't like to talk shit about a series they love 24/7. I don't. I love this series and I talk about the things I love about it all the time. But one criticism or two and suddenly your a party pooper.

I don't know. Tbh, maybe I just needed to vent. I'm just so confused. Its either your too positive about the series or too negative and no one can just... get over themselves and have a genuine conversation?

Man, am I crazy? Maybe some KH fans out there who are on Twitter or whatever can give me some advice on this? Like, I really mean to push anyone away or think I'm just someone who always talks negatively about the series. Am I in the wrong and I'm just not seeing it? I genuinely want too and how you approach the series far as talking about critically and when appropriate to due so.

 

[Chie]

The issue here is entirely that Twitter as a social system is only used for this kind of interaction now. People are encouraged to epically own you over everything because they think it makes for a funny/cool moment. I wouldn't take it too personally, although I find it really frustrating myself.

(Also, some people may simply not want to see unsolicited "counterpoints" when they're talking about their engagement with a work, which I can agree with; this is another issue with this type of social media where any individual post can be considered simultaneously public and private.)

I actually do think there is something to be said about whether criticism holds value or not in this context, but it might not be relevant; as far as you are concerned, you should just be honest and not worry about whether it can be considered positive or negative, naturally.

 

[MrFranklin95]

Am

The issue here is entirely that Twitter as a social system is only used for this kind of interaction now. People are encouraged to epically own you over everything because they think it makes for a funny/cool moment. I wouldn't take it too personally, although I find it really frustrating myself.

(Also, some people may simply not want to see unsolicited "counterpoints" when they're talking about their engagement with a work, which I can agree with; this is another issue with this type of social media where any individual post can be considered simultaneously public and private.)

I actually do think there is something to be said about whether criticism holds value or not in this context, but it might not be relevant; as far as you are concerned, you should just be honest and not worry about whether it can be considered positive or negative, naturally.

Yeah, I probably shouldn't. I know myself I can take things personally so I'm always making sure I'm aware of that but I don't want scare off fans of the series because I genuinely don' mean to divisive or to start shit. But I think you are right and that it does have to do with the nature of how twitter operates.

And it is true that sometimes criticism in certain cases is just not appropriate. I definately realized when I first started going on there that I made those mistakes unintentionally. But even when corrected those mistakes moving forward, I still felt like I got dogpiled even when I wasn't trying to be malicious in anyway.

But again, like you said, I think its just how it work on Twitter and I shouldn't take it personally. It what it is I guess. It just really got me today.

As far the criticism holding any value. Honestly, it just depends on a case by case basis. Art is ultimately subjective and people feel differently about certain product then others. I don't think I can ever someone's opinion is wrong or right since fiction and storytelling can mean different things to different people.

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

It’s difficult to speak about any series critically or uncritically due to how polarizing social media is these days. Say one bad thing about KH3 and suddenly you have a million people after you for your opinion. Say one good thing about KH3 and it’s the same.

KH2 is nearly the same in that regard. Days, too…if you say something good about Re:coded then you are the worst fan ever.

And it goes on and on with every game in the series.

It makes it hard to have any good discussion about the series without it being about a theory because people just aren’t capable of accepting varying opinions and critiques of the series. It’s what happens when a series has such a big variety of fans who came in at different points and prefer certain experiences over others.

A KH fan who might be a huge fan of BBS isn’t going to be as fond of another game because it plays differently or features different characters, so then they will be a target from fans who might hate BBS but love Days.

This is why I value the forum experience much more than social media discussion. It allows you to still get the variety of opinions, but you can choose to engage with that discussion in a more thorough way.

 

[MrFranklin95]

It’s difficult to speak about any series critically or uncritically due to how polarizing social media is these days. Say one bad thing about KH3 and suddenly you have a million people after you for your opinion. Say one good thing about KH3 and it’s the same.

KH2 is nearly the same in that regard. Days, too…if you say something good about Re:coded then you are the worst fan ever.

And it goes on and on with every game in the series.

It makes it hard to have any good discussion about the series without it being about a theory because people just aren’t capable of accepting varying opinions and critiques of the series. It’s what happens when a series has such a big variety of fans who came in at different points and prefer certain experiences over others.

A KH fan who might be a huge fan of BBS isn’t going to be as fond of another game because it plays differently or features different characters, so then they will be a target from fans who might hate BBS but love Days.

This is why I value the forum experience much more than social media discussion. It allows you to still get the variety of opinions, but you can choose to engage with that discussion in a more thorough way.

I agree. I like forum discussion so much better because I feel like you can actually speak your mind on whatever end of the spectrum. Because even though sometimes discussion can get heated and all that, at least it isn't telling others that your opinion doesn't matter and you should shut up. At least, that's not what I've seen. Everyone on forum is very chill and welcoming.

But yeah, vice versa can still happen. I think fans just need to accept different points of view when it comes to the series. Even i had a hard time with that in the past. 358/2 days, imo, is one of the best stories in the series and I use to get mad when fans would crap on it. But you know what? Its there opinion. Its is what it is and its not the end of the world if someone doesn't like what I like for completly valid reasons.

It's all about balance, respect, and understanding. And basking in the genuine fun of discussion.

Honestly, this makes everything about the Sonic fanbase makes so much sense because its literally the exact same thing. With Sonic, it definitely became more extreme but you can noticed the parallels in KH; with different gameplay system, execution on story etc

At this point I just feel like I should just use my socials for my Art and animation and just save the discussion for forums where things aren't as chaotic... well, for the most part lol

 

[Deleted member 246005]

So I've been hanging out on Twitter for the last few months. I've had good interaction here and there but everytime I brought a criticism or anything that worries me a out the future of the series, I get dogpiled very easily. And its pretty frustrating honestly. I don't do it to openly attack people or anything but I also feel I can't be honest about a series I still genuinely love but I have some reservations about over the years. I don't feel I should hold my opinions back all the time out of fear backlash that I'm making people feel bad about something they like which isn't my goal at all

And a lot of the time its over KH3. Like, I don't want to speak for anyone who is on twitter as well and I apologize if I offend anyone but everytime with KH3, fans get super defensive about it. All the time. I don't even hate Kingdom Hearts 3 but the game has problems and if I see a tweet saying something I disagree with, I want to make a counterpoint and give my thoughts and suddenly I'm the bad guy for it.

Maybe I'm overthinking it idk I just now feel like I can't talk about the series openly anymore. Like, I have to talk about it positively 24/7 everytime. Maybe its also just a societal que that maybe I'm just not getting because I know not everyone doesn't like to talk shit about a series they love 24/7. I don't. I love this series and I talk about the things I love about it all the time. But one criticism or two and suddenly your a party pooper.

I don't know. Tbh, maybe I just needed to vent. I'm just so confused. Its either your too positive about the series or too negative and no one can just... get over themselves and have a genuine conversation?

Man, am I crazy? Maybe some KH fans out there who are on Twitter or whatever can give me some advice on this? Like, I really mean to push anyone away or think I'm just someone who always talks negatively about the series. Am I in the wrong and I'm just not seeing it? I genuinely want too and how you approach the series far as talking about critically and when appropriate to due so.

Fans are overprotective of what they love. So I suggest getting a thick skin or picking your fights. It's not wrong to criticize things but it's not always worth the hassle.

On the flip side, it could be time for you to pack in the fan card. Not every story stays with you. Sometimes you just gotta let things go and move on. Or you could run the risk of becoming a toxic fan. It's why I don't post here as much as I used too.

 

[MrFranklin95]

I agree. I'll always love the series, but the story is a HUGE mess now. And the main reason is something I don't see mentioned often. There were supposed to be at least two more side games to come out before KH3.



The first game was BBSV2, which was teased in the secret ending of KHBBS Final Mix+. BBS was always planned to lead into another follow-up game. It was going to be the equivalent of Kingdom Hearts 0.5, like how BBS was the equivalent of Kingdom Hearts 0. So, it would depict everything important that happened between KHBBS and KH1. Things like Aqua’s time in the dark realm and the time when Terra-Xehanort was an apprentice to Ansem the Wise, etc. We did get an incomplete version of this story as KH0.2. But we never got the other 0.3. It was meant to be a full game, not a Ground Zeroes-style prologue.



KH0.5 was apparently stopped when the team made KH3D. That being said, KH3D also has a secret ending, teasing a future game. It shows a young Xehanort on Destiny Islands, lamenting that the world is just too small. It appears that the game was actually Dark Road and Nomura wanted to release it after KH3D. So, it should have come out a very long time ago.



Dark Road is, of course, a missing part of the dark seeker saga. It was definitely supposed to come out before KH3. The fact that both KH0.5 and Dark Road were shelved is no doubt a big reason why KH3 had such a messy and unsatisfying story, which left so many things unanswered. I don't even blame Nomura because he clearly wanted to tell those stories, but Square-Enix wouldn't let him.

I never knew about any of this and it makes so much sense. Xehanort's lack of screentime, flimsy motivation that isn't exactly line up with BBS, and everything involving BBS trio feeling a bit off besides all the Aqua stuff?

Dark Road coming out before KH3 would've made up so much for KH3, that's insane that they decided to scrapped or at the very least not include on KH3 as a prologue rather then just one cutscene. It always felt like a game that should've came out on modern consoles before KH3. Sqaure was probably on a deadline at that point but it still sucks that they seem to want to undermine his ideas time and time again.

Yeah, at that point, KH was a mess and in a lot of ways it still kind of is. But honestly there was so much drama in Sqaure at that time that its unsurprising. So, even though I have reservations on Yozora and worldlines and all that, Nomura is getting a fresh start with a new saga. So I'm going in with an open mind now that Nomura seemingly has a plan in place for the next saga.

 

[MrFranklin95]

Fans are overprotective of what they love. So I suggest getting a thick skin or picking your fights. It's not wrong to criticize things but it's not always worth the hassle.

On the flip side, it could be time for you to pack in the fan card. Not every story stays with you. Sometimes you just gotta let things go and move on. Or you could run the risk of becoming a toxic fan. It's why I don't post here as much as I used too.

I have a thick skin. That's not really the issue. At the end of day, there opinion is there opinion. It just got frustrating at a certain point and I think after about a year, I feel like I can complain a bit. Some fans also need some thick skin as well if we're talking spade to spade here.

But look, you do have a point in that regard. I could give a shit less what anyone has to say about my opinion as far as discussion and what not but I gotta pick my battles I guess. That shouldn't mean I have too "turn in my fan card" like no, I love this series. It still has many things about I love which why I'm still here. There have just been a few cracks in the road and I'm still along for the ride. Nothing about story has turned me away completely, that be a bit extreme. For all of KH's fault, it's not even remotely to being a bad series. Like, not even. There is so much worse out there and KH isn't even the worst in this regard

But you're right though, it's not always worth the hassle. It's not gonna stop me from having opinion and wanting to talk about them but gotta go case by case. Not everyone wants to hear there favorite thing criticized and so I need to learn when it's appropriate or not. That I do realize.

 

[SweetYetSalty]

You can critique something you love. I love the KH series, doesn't mean I don't have my gripes with it, as shown in the nitpicks thread lol. I don't have a Twitter account myself so I barely even know what goes on there other then when something is trending. Wasn't Sora and Kairi trending once for shipping reasons? So while I can't speak about Twitter, I think disagreements in general are bound to happen in any fanbase with different opinions, no matter where they are. Even on forums it can get nasty. That's just the nature of a fanbase. Have you seen what's going on between the Spider-Man movie fanbase right now?

I'm not afraid to critique things in the KH series, but I always try to make sure I don't come off as if I'm just blindly hating it (though at times I bet I've come across as such lol) and even try to offer alternatives to what they could have done differently to improve on what I had a problem with.

Though personally I enjoy Kingdom Hearts the most when I'm by myself and I don't feel pressured into liking or disliking what everyone else does. Because when you like something or dislike something but the rest of the fanbase is opposite of you, you might be swayed to change your opinion on that alone. Again that isn't Twitter exclusive, it can happen anywhere in a fanbase.

 

[MoonRabbit]

I never knew about any of this and it makes so much sense. Xehanort's lack of screentime, flimsy motivation that isn't exactly line up with BBS, and everything involving BBS trio feeling a bit off besides all the Aqua stuff?

Dark Road coming out before KH3 would've made up so much for KH3, that's insane that they decided to scrapped or at the very least not include on KH3 as a prologue rather then just one cutscene. It always felt like a game that should've came out on modern consoles before KH3. Sqaure was probably on a deadline at that point but it still sucks that they seem to want to undermine his ideas time and time again.

Yeah, at that point, KH was a mess and in a lot of ways it still kind of is. But honestly there was so much drama in Sqaure at that time that its unsurprising. So, even though I have reservations on Yozora and worldlines and all that, Nomura is getting a fresh start with a new saga. So I'm going in with an open mind now that Nomura seemingly has a plan in place for the next saga.

Yep. It definitely seems like the higher ups demanded that KH3 be the final one after KH3D. A lot of people were complaining about all the "filler". But without those "filler" games, KH3 was...well, the way it turned out. Incomplete. I think if Dark Road came out before KH3, there wouldn't have been nearly as many complaints about Master Xehanort's motivations. The stuff with the Master of Masters, Luxu, and the black box probably would have been resolved. And Dark Road so far has such good writing, IMO. Much better than KHUX.

 

[Chie]

This should probably be its own thread, but I wouldn't only blame Square Enix - I mean, I wouldn't defend Square Enix for anything either, since Nomura's always been struggling against them. I'd also blame the deterioration of the games industry's allowing space for lower-budget games in general. Days, BBS, coded/re:coded, 3D; this whole stretch of games came out for handhelds. You could make games the length of console games on handhelds at a drastically reduced budget simply because they weren't HD. You can see how devs used handhelds to continue doing SD development too - many many devs moved from PS2 to the DS and 3DS around the time of the PS3. Between 3D and III, handhelds died because cell phones replaced them. This has, arguably, affected every single JP game series and every single JP console game dev, in a way that is almost universally negative. Kingdom Heart's preferred storytelling tactic of multiple games furthering the story through different perspectives has been reduced to Nomura and two animators making cutscenes for gacha. It's quite depressing.

 

[MoonRabbit]

This should probably be its own thread, but I wouldn't only blame Square Enix - I mean, I wouldn't defend Square Enix for anything either, since Nomura's always been struggling against them. I'd also blame the deterioration of the games industry's allowing space for lower-budget games in general. Days, BBS, coded/re:coded, 3D; this whole stretch of games came out for handhelds. You could make games the length of console games on handhelds at a drastically reduced budget simply because they weren't HD. You can see how devs used handhelds to continue doing SD development too - many many devs moved from PS2 to the DS and 3DS around the time of the PS3. Between 3D and III, handhelds died because cell phones replaced them. This has, arguably, affected every single JP game series and every single JP console game dev, in a way that is almost universally negative. Kingdom Heart's preferred storytelling tactic of multiple games furthering the story through different perspectives has been reduced to Nomura and two animators making cutscenes for gacha. It's quite depressing.

Wow, this hits home. It's really true. Mobile is the only real low-budget handheld left. The side games on console are either a short prologue (0.2) or a rhythm game.

I like Dark Road. It deserves sooo much better than mobile gacha. Heck, if they wanted more console games, they could have used the same PS2 engine, just upscaled in HD, like the 1.5 and 2.5 Remasters. I wouldn't have cared. But I guess that was not seen as an option, sadly.

 

[LoneFox]

Between 3D and III, handhelds died because cell phones replaced them. This has, arguably, affected every single JP game series and every single JP console game dev, in a way that is almost universally negative. Kingdom Heart's preferred storytelling tactic of multiple games furthering the story through different perspectives has been reduced to Nomura and two animators making cutscenes for gacha. It's quite depressing.

But what prevents them from making actually good games for mobile? Or even better, making actually good games that are available for many different platforms, including mobile?

 

[DraceEmpressa]

But what prevents them from making actually good games for mobile? Or even better, making actually good games that are available for many different platforms, including mobile?

Like Genshin Impact, that it's actually an AAA game on mobile, that you can also synchronize it with Switch, or Pokemon Unite? The assumption that "oh we are big company, and we're making gacha anyway, less effort still net us profit" ?

 

[2 quid is good]

On the point of twitter, it's really not worthwhile to "pick a fight" there, not every tweet is an invitation for discussion but it's VERY difficult to tell. I rarely engage with KH discussion there anymore after really losing my head to it like last year. There are some gems but like other's have said, the whole point of twitter is to GOTCHA and while I enjoy doing that with things like football, cricket, even politics to an extent, I can't stand it when it comes to KH or other media because it's all rather subjective, and it quickly devolves into how many of your friends just flood mentions to back you vs the other person, it's not enjoyable.

While the "ganging up" aspect can happen on a forum it's a lot less likely, and forums are actually moderated so it's not just a free for all behind a supermarket between a bunch of nerds.

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

But what prevents them from making actually good games for mobile? Or even better, making actually good games that are available for many different platforms, including mobile?

I think the point they are making is that mobile has become the space where middle tier game development happens these days, and in SE’s case they will spend the least amount of money on a mobile game because they can rather than putting time into developing a game like older KH games and releasing that on everything.

And that said, nothing is stopping SE from releasing a good game on mobile and also publishing it on many different consoles like Genshin Impact. The only thing stopping them is themselves.

Look at FF7: The First Soldier. That game just released and it is clear it makes use of a combination of low-res assets from FF7R and design concepts from games like Crisis Core. And yet you can only play it on mobile even though it would be perfectly serviceable on consoles and PC. Who knows why they haven’t released it on other systems beyond a lack of understanding how games like Genshin Impact, Fortnite, and that COD Warzone game took off lol?

SE will cut themselves off at the foot at every corner for no reason. Dark Road could have been more than a 2D auto-card game with a shoestring budget. It could have had PS2 graphics and still been released on mobile and consoles and probably could have pulled in way more money than they got from the few MTXs they actually got. And certainly not attached to a dying game that everybody knew wasn’t going to make it to 2022.

 

[LoneFox]

Like Genshin Impact, that it's actually an AAA game on mobile, that you can also synchronize it with Switch, or Pokemon Unite? The assumption that "oh we are big company, and we're making gacha anyway, less effort still net us profit" ?

I'm not familiar with that particular game, so I don't know if it is a good example of the Right Way.

I was trying to say two things. First, while most mobile games are bad, they don't need to be so. For example, the main reason why KHUX was bad is poor game balance, which has nothing to do with the platform. Second, in today's world there is no need to restrict games to one particular platform. Doing so is a remnant from 20+ years ago, when hardware differences between platforms were still so big that porting a game often meant rewriting most of its code.

The problem is not technology, but pointy-haired bosses and necktie clowns breaking things.

Edit: ninja'd by Oracle Spockanort!

 

[DraceEmpressa]

The problem is not technology, but pointy-haired bosses and necktie clowns breaking things.

Edit: ninja'd by Oracle Spockanort!

That's... what' I'm talking about.

While it's fact that we lived in an era where we can have AAA games on mobile, like the forementioned Genshin Impact have graphic that can give PS3 games a run for their money , as well gameplay complex enough for that, and other than that,we now can run PS2 emulator on phones. Nevermind you can also dock your phone to the monitor/keyboard and use it to replace the CPU.

But why, don't SE invest more into KHUX, in graphic or gameplay? You see, most mobile games are gachas, and there are two types of popular mobile gachas. First, that rides the coattails of the popular franchise it's based on, like the Dragon Ball or One Piece one. The second is the one that sells sex/waifu/husbando. Both types can net even MILLIONS OF DOLLARS with subpar gameplay, as long the fans is dedicated enough, the plot is good enough, or the waifu/husbando is titillating/interesting enough for them to whale. Why bother with extra graphic/asset/gameplay when illustrator and VA is all you need to get money? SE seem to be in ASSUMPTION KHUX is the first type, when it isn't as it's not as popular as it expected to be when it carries Disney AND SE name. Not helping is that, in gachas, many times you get to see your faves in dumb situation like new year, june wedding or interact with characterts from different game but same franchise and helps fleshes the character, other than giving them alternative design. But KHUX doesn't have this either, no. Did some Sora medals give us more lines or information about Sora? No. Before you say "oh but of course KHUX is first type, it's Disney and they are kiddie friendly", Twisted Wonderland exists and it proves to be successful at what it's supposed to do, draining horny fangirls' money through cute husbandos

And since KHUX is already proven to be not as successful as it should be ,why invest more in KHUX? Sure, SE CAN make new mobile game for KH . But other than the question will it sell or not and bring back their budget, do they have the manpower for it as they are focused on console game?

Other than SE themselves, you know despite mobile gaming decimates handheld consoles, mobile gamers are still treated as the pariah of the gaming community in the west. Doesn't matter if the game have better gameplay, lore or evne graphic than console games, or you have whale thousands of dollars into a mobile game, richer than the console gamers, people still think console game and by extension console gamers are superior than "trivial mobile games"

So it's both devs and fandom that stopped them to feel like mobile games worth it, I think.

 

[kirabook]

I don't mind doing friendly debates here, but nah. I rarely if ever get involved in intimate discussions on twitter. There just isn't enough room for that. I've done my best to stick to the original idea of a "tweet". Short, random, string of consciousness or art.

I mean think about it. You write out some well articulated comment, but realize you've surpassed the character limit by 15. You're forced to widdle down your words to the bare necessities which causes misunderstandings among other things. It's just like, what is the point?

 

[SuperNova]

I love KH but even I have criticisms about the series especially KH3 and how some of the fandom think KH2 is the end all be all of the games. Twitter is not the best place to have debates about something you love simply because it quickly turns into a street brawl on who has the hottest take.

Also if SE does make another KH mobile game, I just hope they don't follow the KHUX formula again because Dark Road tried and it failed.