Gay Marriage in D.C.

[Azrael]

I consider countries that have trouble distinguishing between church and state (and lack respect for human rights) less civilized than countries that do, yeah. I also consider countries with slavery less civilized than those without, regardless of their contributions.

Most people would think and say otherwise. Every society has its fallacies though it does not stop people from admiring the achievements of said people. Should we consider the people who lived before us any less civilized than we are now? Some may argue that society has become less civilized but that's a debate for another thread.

Homosexual marriage will be allowed when people stop forcing it on others and give it time for most decent minded individuals to accept and tolerate perhaps even praise instead of forcing it down people's throats. That leads to bitterness.

 

[Phoenix]

Most people would think and say otherwise.

Most people live in states that have officially declared a separation between church and state.

Every society has its fallacies though it does not stop people from admiring the achievements of said people. Should we consider the people who lived before us any less civilized than we are now? Some may argue that society has become less civilized but that's a debate for another thread.

Again, regardless of your achievements, if you can't respect human rights, you're less civilized from those that do.

Homosexual marriage will be allowed when people stop forcing it on others and give it time for most decent minded individuals to accept and tolerate perhaps even praise instead of forcing it down people's throats. That leads to bitterness.

Say, do you think the Southern slave owners were bitter when they were forced to release their slaves? Or were some white males bitter when blacks and women were given the vote?

Do you think it was a bad idea to force that down people's throats? Or do you think we should've waited another generation or two to avoid conflict?

 

[Azrael]

Most people live in states that have officially declared a separation between church and state.

I'm all in favor of that.

Again, regardless of your achievements, if you can't respect human rights, you're less civilized from those that do.

Can you truly say that we've been civilized just because of the acceptance of homosexual unions because in various other categories, we've made a bit of a backtrack in my point of view.

Say, do you think the Southern slave owners were bitter when they were forced to release their slaves? Or were some white males bitter when blacks and women were given the vote?

If this is some attempt to paint me as a racist then it's not working. I'm going with the benefit of the doubt that plenty of Southern slave owners were pretty pissed at having the government come down on them and take away their source of free labor. That was the right thing to do but doing so in that manner instilled a hatred in them that eventually led (once the Union withdrew their forces) to Southern state governments taking away the rights of black Americans and put civil rights back for another hundred if not more years.

Even still there is a huge racial disparity.

Do you think it was a bad idea to force that down people's throats? Or do you think we should've waited another generation or two to avoid conflict?

I am unable to provide an arguement to you because the events of the past had happened in the way they did. I am only speaking in the hypothetical had some things been different, we might have been better off.

It's like us not going into Vietnam. No doubt liberals would instantly jump and praise LBJ as more of a great man than he already was. Had that conflict not happened, our economy wouldn't had pit fallen in the 1970s as it did. Perhaps our country would've had a national health insurance system but it didn't happen.

I can't say anything to convince you as you can for me. Can we agree to disagree?

 

[Phoenix]

I'm all in favor of that.

You missed the point, though. If you live in a country that separates church from state, you are legally not allowed to make or unmake laws because of your religion. My point is, this apparently to be emphasized in primary school, because people seem not to get it.

Can you truly say that we've been civilized just because of the acceptance of homosexual unions because in various other categories, we've made a bit of a backtrack in my point of view.

Erm, no, I never said that. I said some countries are more civilized than others. I've never said any one country is awesomely civilized, or uncivilized savages.

If this is some attempt to paint me as a racist then it's not working.

... it isn't. Why the fuck would you even think that?

I'm going with the benefit of the doubt that plenty of Southern slave owners were pretty pissed at having the government come down on them and take away their source of free labor. That was the right thing to do but doing so in that manner instilled a hatred in them that eventually led (once the Union withdrew their forces) to Southern state governments taking away the rights of black Americans and put civil rights back for another hundred if not more years.

What makes you think the civil rights movement was put back? For all you know, they would've kept the slaves for another 100 years, and peacefully kept them inferior to white people for 500 more years.

I am unable to provide an arguement to you because the events of the past had happened in the way they did. I am only speaking in the hypothetical had some things been different, we might have been better off.

It's like us not going into Vietnam. No doubt liberals would instantly jump and praise LBJ as more of a great man than he already was. Had that conflict not happened, our economy wouldn't had pit fallen in the 1970s as it did. Perhaps our country would've had a national health insurance system but it didn't happen.

I can't say anything to convince you as you can for me. Can we agree to disagree?

Again, it could've been better, or it could've been worse, I agree. However, you're plan would be to wait for people to be more tolerant. That might or might not work. My plan is to *make* people respect human rights. Regardless of any bitterness, I'm pretty sure rights will be (for the most part) respected, and that the repercussions will be temporary, if perhaps long-lasting.

 

[Azrael]

You missed the point, though. If you live in a country that separates church from state, you are legally not allowed to make or unmake laws because of your religion. My point is, this apparently to be emphasized in primary school, because people seem not to get it.

I am in agreement towards you. I see no need to emphasize a point that we both agree on although this should be the case for all minorities not just against Christians. In Europe fanatical Muslim extremists seem to have a free hand in this.

Erm, no, I never said that. I said some countries are more civilized than others. I've never said any one country is awesomely civilized, or uncivilized savages.

I never said that. I just said that it's a bit unfair to call a country uncivilized just because they do not accept something like homosexual unions.

... it isn't. Why the fuck would you even think that?

You would be surprised by the liberals I've encountered who immediately put that accusation.

What makes you think the civil rights movement was put back? For all you know, they would've kept the slaves for another 100 years, and peacefully kept them inferior to white people for 500 more years.

Slavery was doomed to end with or without a Civil War. It's been proven. Brazil managed to end slavery on its own without a need for a civil war that nearly ripped apart a nation into two. You can't assume the worse might happen if something like the Civil War never occurred. South Africa may not have had slavery but they sure treated blacks a lot worse than white Americans treated blacks here.

Again, it could've been better, or it could've been worse, I agree. However, you're plan would be to wait for people to be more tolerant. That might or might not work. My plan is to *make* people respect human rights. Regardless of any bitterness, I'm pretty sure rights will be (for the most part) respected, and that the repercussions will be temporary, if perhaps long-lasting.

Generally someone will be more in favor of something if they are not forced to do it.

 

[Ryu]

I never said that. I just said that it's a bit unfair to call a country uncivilized just because they do not accept something like homosexual unions.

it is also unfair to not get a certain type of humor that has been employed by many persons in the intel section for years now

 

[Phoenix]

I am in agreement towards you. I see no need to emphasize a point that we both agree on although this should be the case for all minorities not just against Christians. In Europe fanatical Muslim extremists seem to have a free hand in this.

Not you, you already agree with civil homosexual marriage. I mean people who oppose it on religious grounds.

I never said that. I just said that it's a bit unfair to call a country uncivilized just because they do not accept something like homosexual unions.

I'm calling them less civilized, not uncivilized. And they are; they're letting religion into their secular laws, and justify taking away someone's right.

Slavery was doomed to end with or without a Civil War. It's been proven. Brazil managed to end slavery on its own without a need for a civil war that nearly ripped apart a nation into two. You can't assume the worse might happen if something like the Civil War never occurred. South Africa may not have had slavery but they sure treated blacks a lot worse than white Americans treated blacks here.

I can't assume the worst would happen anymore than you can't assume the best will happen. Your strategy relies on an "if". My way assures that civil rights are respected.

 

[Azrael]

Not you, you already agree with civil homosexual marriage. I mean people who oppose it on religious grounds.

That's their opinion. They have a right to express it. As long as they are not infringing on anyone else's rights, why should we care?

I'm calling them less civilized, not uncivilized. And they are; they're letting religion into their secular laws, and justify taking away someone's right.

I know that but I doubt that statement would be taken kindly if it was said to someone in Africa or in the Middle East where religion plays an important role in society.

I can't assume the worst would happen anymore than you can't assume the best will happen. Your strategy relies on an "if". My way assures that civil rights are respected.

If that's what you believe then yes. People tried your way with busing to force integration and it ended up doing the exact opposite to a large extent.

 

[Oriax]

I don't see the point in all the anti-gay stuff. Good for them that they got married because they love each other, who are we all to judge. It's none of anyones buisness and it's stupid for people to think "OMFG! the apocalypse is here because gays are getting married!!" For christs sake people, pull yourself together. There are things that are actually bad going on in this world ... *sigh*

Sorry, I wasn't aiming that at anyone on here - just the reaction to gay's being married by a society - newspapers saying it's a bad thing. It disgusts me.

Rant over now ... ^_^;;

 

[Phoenix]

That's their opinion. They have a right to express it. As long as they are not infringing on anyone else's rights, why should we care?

When did I ever imply that they should be stopped? By all means, they can express their unconstitutional opinion. My point, again, is that people seem to forget that their country has a separation of church and state, whether they agree with it or not.

I know that but I doubt that statement would be taken kindly if it was said to someone in Africa or in the Middle East where religion plays an important role in society.

The continent that has more rape per capita than anything else, and where 1 in 3 women was raped in the last year?

The extremely unstable region where, save for a few countries, women basically still lack rights, freedom of religion is unheard of and hating Jews and Americans is a fact of life?

Surely you can think of a better example to point our moral compass at =/

If that's what you believe then yes. People tried your way with busing to force integration and it ended up doing the exact opposite to a large extent.

Maybe, but again, in order to ensure all human beings share the same basic rights, my way seems less risky.