Final Look and Appearances

[Raybrand]

Hi, I've been concerned about how the character models look in the footage of kh3 so far and I'm wondering if thats their final appearance? At first I thought it was a work in progress, the models looked alright but I don't know if its the lighting or the textures but it looked off to me. Here is an image below for a quick comparison.
[KH2.8] Kingdom hearts 2.8 vs 2.5 aqua graphics comparison - Imgur

I thought it was a work in progress, the look of the characters but they released the Aqua medal for Unchained X game and it had that same weird look. So if they have already released that does that mean they are already satisfied with the character graphics as they are?

Is it just me who feels weird about how they look, I liked everything else, the attacks and the environment but the character's skin and hair look really off.

In the image below, the last slide, I thought thats how the game is going to look and it doesnt look like too technically demanding.
http://i.imgur.com/GZyEhOj.jpg

 

[keybladeowner445]

I mean compare to terra , aqua looks amazing. But I don't know maybe that's just the new style they are going for

 

[Antifa Lockhart]

Honestly, look at the two models. They're very similar, the one on the left has just been splashed with an HD makeover. This is Nomura's attempt at evolving the KH style.

 

[khluva010]

I personally don't have an issue with the new character models, but they're seems to be a general concern from what I've heard/seen from other KH communities and I'm just not understanding why? I think the details on Aqua look amazing, eve her outfit has life to it! As for the Sora model, I think that character model was from the early stages, but I could be wrong.

 

[Nazo]

Literally the only issue is that they have yet to get the lighting down. And that's not surprising because up until now, every KH game in the series has avoided dynamic lighting. I think this is why many of us are raising our eyebrows at the way the game is shaping up graphically, because the art style is a mesh between the hyper-realism of modern graphics with the cel-shaded style of KH, and it's combining in a way that we're not accustomed to in this series. The number one issue is that the lighting, in almost every trailer thus far, has made the characters' skin look like rubber or clay. It looks unpolished and flat yet shiny and weird all at once. They haven't struck the right balance with their lighting engine yet.

However, I think they're very close. In Back Cover, that close-up shot of Master Ased (Ursus), his skin tone looked perfect to my eyes. That's proof that the art style they're attempting to capture in the new engine can be realized to its full potential. They're just still working on it. The most recent KH3 trailer from Jump Festa also looked damn near perfect to my eyes, so I'd say they're getting pretty close to finally nailing the artistic visual style. I say we wait just a little bit longer to truly get worried. Nomura even said it's been a challenge and that they're working very closely with the creators of Unreal Engine 4 to make sure they do everything just right. So, I'm optimistic that the final product of both 2.8 and 3 will be visually stunning.

Although, Terra's face in 0.2 has me like

 

[TheAuronSavior]

Literally the only issue is that they have yet to get the lighting down. And that's not surprising because up until now, every KH game in the series has avoided dynamic lighting. I think this is why many of us are raising our eyebrows at the way the game is shaping up graphically, because the art style is a mesh between the hyper-realism of modern graphics with the cel-shaded style of KH, and it's combining in a way that we're not accustomed to in this series. The number one issue is that the lighting, in almost every trailer thus far, has made the characters' skin look like rubber or clay. It looks unpolished and flat yet shiny and weird all at once. They haven't struck the right balance with their lighting engine yet.

However, I think they're very close. In Back Cover, that close-up shot of Master Ased (Ursus), his skin tone looked perfect to my eyes. That's proof that the art style they're attempting to capture in the new engine can be realized to its full potential. They're just still working on it. The most recent KH3 trailer from Jump Festa also looked damn near perfect to my eyes, so I'd say they're getting pretty close to finally nailing the artistic visual style. I say we wait just a little bit longer to truly get worried. Nomura even said it's been a challenge and that they're working very closely with the creators of Unreal Engine 4 to make sure they do everything just right. So, I'm optimistic that the final product of both 2.8 and 3 will be visually stunning.

Although, Terra's face in 0.2 has me like

To be honest, I did not realize the lack of polish until you brought it up. But I'm not really concerned with the graphics that much since I'm much more concerned with the gameplay but to be honest, I do wish that the graphics were of that from earlier trailers of 3 ( but we'll never get that since that used the Luminous Engine, which didn't work out. )

 

[Kaweebo]

I personally don't have an issue with the new character models, but they're seems to be a general concern from what I've heard/seen from other KH communities and I'm just not understanding why? I think the details on Aqua look amazing, eve her outfit has life to it! As for the Sora model, I think that character model was from the early stages, but I could be wrong.

I've seen a couple different people complain that the new models look like crap and this kind of thing always happens. I get that there's always going to be dissent but it's inconceivable to me that people can think the new Aqua model isn't an improvement in nearly ever single way over the original models, which were based in an engine from 2002. I think that people just really like complaining about things and so they subconsciously see problems where there really aren't any, yet if I say that I get labeled as in denial that the dev team made something I can undeniably say is objectively better.

 

[Nazo]

I've seen a couple different people complain that the new models look like crap and this kind of thing always happens. I get that there's always going to be dissent but it's inconceivable to me that people can think the new Aqua model isn't an improvement in nearly ever single way over the original models, which were based in an engine from 2002. I think that people just really like complaining about things and so they subconsciously see problems where there really aren't any, yet if I say that I get labeled as in denial that the dev team made something I can undeniably say is objectively better.

It has less to do with people liking to complain and more with emotional attachment and/or nostalgia. When you tamper with the visual style of a beloved franchise, you're going to have a polarized response. In the case of KH, people like the old Aqua model better because the new one feels unfamiliar and they're not used to it. It's an evolved look, and for some people, the evolution isn't sitting right, which is to be expected. I'm telling you, they just need to make the skin look matte in appearance and not abnormally shiny, and the rest will follow suit. Once they nail that lighting system, we're gold.

To be honest, I did not realize the lack of polish until you brought it up. But I'm not really concerned with the graphics that much since I'm much more concerned with the gameplay but to be honest, I do wish that the graphics were of that from earlier trailers of 3 ( but we'll never get that since that used the Luminous Engine, which didn't work out. )

The main reason they switched to Unreal Engine 4 is because it lends itself better to the artistic style of KH better. I've actually used UE4 myself in a Game Design course at my college, and making games in that engine is incredible. Game-making is a laborious process no matter what engine you use, but UE4 is not only very easily edited, but it's so adaptable to whatever art style you're trying to achieve. Luminous Engine has a very "Square" feeling to its appearance, but that also makes it more restrictive, not to mention with UE4 being much faster in terms of dev time, it was a smart decision to switch to UE4.

 

[kirabook]

It's definitely not 'complaining to complain'. In a round about way, I think they addressed our concerns in the newest interviews. Yes, this is the very first time that the in-game is going to have dynamic lighting and they're still working on it. While it looks fantastic in Backcover (the look I believe they're trying to achieve), they haven't fine tuned it yet to work in game, specifically on the character models.

At times, Aqua looks beautiful and gorgeous and the lighting is spot on. At others, the lighting looks awkward and it looks like she's just rubbed herself with baby oil. Terra's face.... well, it's a mixture of bad pictures, awkward lighting, and most of all, he's missing about 8 layers of his luscious eyelashes.

If Backcover is what they're trying to achieve and what their 'end game is', then I am not worried because clearly, they can get it done. In-game just needs some tweaks, and Terra needs moar eyelashes.

That said, I don't think MOST people are going to be moaning and groaning at the switch from hand painted models to dynamically lit models, they just have to get the dynamically lit ones to not look awkward 40% of the time.

 

[ultima-demi]

It's great how the models look so accurate to their CG model counterparts..it's just the skin/lightning that's an issue.

 

[KeybladeLordSora]

It's pretty much just the lighting that's the issue. Other than that, they're fine to me.

 

[Nazo]

I noticed during many people's playthroughs of the 0.2 demo that from certain angles, Aqua looks spot on. Yet from other angles, she looks weird, and each time, it always has to do with the way the light is playing off of her model and making her look. Because anyone who's studied photography knows that lighting is everything when it comes to capturing a specific look. And I think that's why they've avoided it for so long with this series, because it's very difficult to get it right. I also think that's why many of us are concerned, because it's not that Square is "doing it wrong" it's that they're trying to take the KH art style and give it the dynamic lighting it never had, and since we're not used to it, it looks weird to us, especially since they haven't fully finished it yet.

Given how it seems like they're improving more and more with each showcasing of the new engine, I believe the worst case scenario is 2.8 ends up looking a bit strange, but they learn from it and KH3 looks how it's supposed to. Absolute worst case scenario is they just stick with how it looks right now and we learn to live with plastic/rubber/clay type weirdness in the visuals. Which, in my opinion, I can totally live with, because my main concern above all else is them satisfyingly resolving the current story arc. If someone walked up to me right now and guaranteed me that the ending of KH3 will be absolutely perfect and resolve everything in the most satisfying way possible, but in exchange, the current visuals of 2.8 and KH3 will stay as they are and not improve at all, I'd be totally cool with that.

 

[Hallowseve]

We got time, I have the utmost faith that the models will be top notch and beautiful.

 

[alexis.anagram]

It has less to do with people liking to complain and more with emotional attachment and/or nostalgia. When you tamper with the visual style of a beloved franchise, you're going to have a polarized response. In the case of KH, people like the old Aqua model better because the new one feels unfamiliar and they're not used to it.

While I should say I agree with pretty much everything else you said, I'm not sure how well this argument holds up given that when initial trailers for KH3 displayed brand new character models on the Luminous Engine, the nearly unanimous response was that Sora looked better than he ever has. They had struck that perfect balance which evolved the look of Kingdom Hearts naturally; I for one had no objections to even the earliest renders we had of Sora, Donald and Goofy on Luminous and while I realize that engine is no longer an option, if the Unreal models as they stand are what we're stuck with that's...kind of unacceptable to me. And a large part of it is because Square has provided us proof of concept for just how damn good KH can look on current gen consoles.

I also think Back Cover looks only slightly less terrible than 0.2 tbh, the Foretellers benefit from having the majority of their faces covered by masks but Ephemera still looked like an animatronic Barbie doll. The lighting may seem better but I also think that's just Daybreak Town demanding less in that regard as it's all soft early morning light. I'm also not a fan of the way clothes look in these graphics; they carry the same plastic texture with no differentiation between materials/layers, Black Coat looks like he's wearing a coat of latex rather than leather or whatever it's supposed to be.

The main reason they switched to Unreal Engine 4 is because it lends itself better to the artistic style of KH better. I've actually used UE4 myself in a Game Design course at my college, and making games in that engine is incredible. Game-making is a laborious process no matter what engine you use, but UE4 is not only very easily edited, but it's so adaptable to whatever art style you're trying to achieve. Luminous Engine has a very "Square" feeling to its appearance, but that also makes it more restrictive, not to mention with UE4 being much faster in terms of dev time, it was a smart decision to switch to UE4.

I really hope this turns out to be true, I know nothing about game design so my point of view is that of the average player, but right now, while the environments are nothing short of astounding, it really doesn't work for me as a whole unless the characters feel alive and organic within them.

 

[Nazo]

While I should say I agree with pretty much everything else you said, I'm not sure how well this argument holds up given that when initial trailers for KH3 displayed brand new character models on the Luminous Engine, the nearly unanimous response was that Sora looked better than he ever has. They had struck that perfect balance which evolved the look of Kingdom Hearts naturally; I for one had no objections to even the earliest renders we had of Sora, Donald and Goofy on Luminous and while I realize that engine is no longer an option, if the Unreal models as they stand are what we're stuck with that's...kind of unacceptable to me. And a large part of it is because Square has provided us proof of concept for just how damn good KH can look on current gen consoles.

Even in the announcement trailer for KH3, one of my first thoughts after coming down off that cloud 9 hype wave was "The graphics look like animated clay. I hope they fix that." And when they first switched to Unreal, I thought there wasn't much change. However, with each successive trailer we've gotten, the overall look of KH3 is getting better and better to me. Each time I see that recent Jump Festa trailer, I'm blown away by how good KH3 is looking. So, I think they're getting closer and closer.

I do agree with you about the Foretellers' clothes though. Sure, you can see the stiching and texture of their clothes, but they still suffer from the same problems as the skin does. I've also noticed that the bricks in Twilight Town have a similar problem as well with looking strange like the character models do. Again, the only thing that explains it is the lighting engine. Lighting is really really challenging when developing a new look or improving an existing graphical style. FF had the benefit of years of experimentation and trial and error with all the games that came before it. FF13 already looks kind of outdated these days, for example. Luminous has the benefit of making all the games it produces look a lot like Square's CG stuff, but as I said before, it's also more restrictive and I think it was choking the KH dev team. They had to keep the Disney aspect of KH in mind, and what with the changing art styles of various worlds, switching to a far more adaptable engine was a good idea, in order for them to not have the problem of nailing one single visual style with their engine, but then that engine making it impossible to appropriately emulate the look and feel of multiple Disney worlds.

 

[Kaweebo]

It has less to do with people liking to complain and more with emotional attachment and/or nostalgia. When you tamper with the visual style of a beloved franchise, you're going to have a polarized response. In the case of KH, people like the old Aqua model better because the new one feels unfamiliar and they're not used to it. It's an evolved look, and for some people, the evolution isn't sitting right, which is to be expected. I'm telling you, they just need to make the skin look matte in appearance and not abnormally shiny, and the rest will follow suit. Once they nail that lighting system, we're gold.

Feels unfamiliar? It's literally the exact same design only enhanced to more closely fit how the character looks in the BBS CGI opening. There is no unfamiliarity about it. I could understand the argument if they gave her a completely different look, but she's exactly the same. When you've got people complaining about f**king skin textures being slightly oily, I'd say that's complaining just to complain.

The only model from 0.2 and Back Cover that even looks a little unpolished to me is Terra and that's because his skin seemed much less defined than Aqua's. Otherwise, everything looks damn near perfect to me. And that's not me eating whatever crap SE decides to shovel in our faces, I know that the KH franchise in general has plenty of missteps but ragging on character models for being even a little imperfect (and honestly, most of the comments have almost entirely just been pointing something out that is neither a positive or a real negative, like Aqua's kind-of-oily texture, which can easily be seen as definition to show that she's been wandering nonstop for a long time and would probably be sweaty. I don't see anybody putting forth evidence that it's really because the devs are lazy and suck at their jobs.) is just plain old complaining to me.

 

[skyfoxx]

I noticed during many people's playthroughs of the 0.2 demo that from certain angles, Aqua looks spot on. Yet from other angles, she looks weird, and each time, it always has to do with the way the light is playing off of her model and making her look. Because anyone who's studied photography knows that lighting is everything when it comes to capturing a specific look. And I think that's why they've avoided it for so long with this series, because it's very difficult to get it right. I also think that's why many of us are concerned, because it's not that Square is "doing it wrong" it's that they're trying to take the KH art style and give it the dynamic lighting it never had, and since we're not used to it, it looks weird to us, especially since they haven't fully finished it yet.

Given how it seems like they're improving more and more with each showcasing of the new engine, I believe the worst case scenario is 2.8 ends up looking a bit strange, but they learn from it and KH3 looks how it's supposed to. Absolute worst case scenario is they just stick with how it looks right now and we learn to live with plastic/rubber/clay type weirdness in the visuals.

I'm really glad you mentioned lighting because it really is key in everything - especially in 3D in how something looks. This applies to games, movies, shows, etc. but I always get slightly annoyed when I see people complain about a character model or a character's texturing when the actual issue is the lighting. If you're going to give blame for why you don't like something, please know exactly what it is you are trying to blame.

As far as the art style goes, I really do feel that a lot of it is intentional. I think it's just the art style they're going with. I recall Nomura talking about how the Kingdom Shader was meant to make it so that each world has its own shader in the lighting to give it almost a new artstyle each time, and I think that's a big part of the "inconsistency" we see with the trailers/screenshots on KH3/KH2.8. When you look at shots of Sora in Olympus Coliseum, he looks a lot different then shots of him in Twilight Town, or in Tangled's world. Daybreak Town in KHX looks very different than the Realm of Darkness with Aqua. They're all different lighting because they're supposed to look that way.

The only model from 0.2 and Back Cover that even looks a little unpolished to me is Terra and that's because his skin seemed much less defined than Aqua's. Otherwise, everything looks damn near perfect to me. And that's not me eating whatever crap SE decides to shovel in our faces, I know that the KH franchise in general has plenty of missteps but ragging on character models for being even a little imperfect (and honestly, most of the comments have almost entirely just been pointing something out that is neither a positive or a real negative, like Aqua's kind-of-oily texture, which can easily be seen as definition to show that she's been wandering nonstop for a long time and would probably be sweaty. I don't see anybody putting forth evidence that it's really because the devs are lazy and suck at their jobs.) is just plain old complaining to me.

I agree to a certain extent. I don't think people are complaining just to complain because they really do feel the way they do. However, I do agree that nobody is really pointing out anything that really makes the models/textures themselves to be absolutely bad. So far, everything kind of just boils down to everyone's personal preference of what they would prefer something to look like. It's like if you compare the art style of a show like Adventure Time and say it looks like crap when comparing it to an art style like in Gravity Falls. Neither is really better than the other, they're just different artstyles. But I think people understand that more in handdrawn animation than in 3D. A lot of people can't wrap their head around what it means to have different artstyles in 3D because everyone either assumes it should look hyper-realistic or full-on cartooney, and they don't necessarily allow a lot of room inbetween. (this is often my argument when people say movies like Alice in Wonderland have terrible CGI. It's not terrible CGI. It's stylized to look that way)

 

[Kaweebo]

I agree to a certain extent. I don't think people are complaining just to complain because they really do feel the way they do. However, I do agree that nobody is really pointing out anything that really makes the models/textures themselves to be absolutely bad. So far, everything kind of just boils down to everyone's personal preference of what they would prefer something to look like. It's like if you compare the art style of a show like Adventure Time and say it looks like crap when comparing it to an art style like in Gravity Falls. Neither is really better than the other, they're just different artstyles. But I think people understand that more in handdrawn animation than in 3D. A lot of people can't wrap their head around what it means to have different artstyles in 3D because everyone either assumes it should look hyper-realistic or full-on cartooney, and they don't necessarily allow a lot of room inbetween. (this is often my argument when people say movies like Alice in Wonderland have terrible CGI. It's not terrible CGI. It's stylized to look that way)

I 100% agree. It's a little irritating seeing people say that the characters look like plastic toys. These characters and the way they're translated into 3-dimensions are derived from a very anime-influenced design. They're not going to have realistic skin textures, not even comparable to that of FF games like XIII, XV and VII Remake because that's just not the style they're going for. And to be fair, the only styles we've seen compared to each other is the same kind so far. If you look at KHIII and how it's handled Tangled and Hercules in very distinct kind of ways, you see just how varied they're really making everything style-wise as far as locations go. Hopefully we'll see characters of other styles soon, too.

 

[lychee]

It's a game. Games constantly evolve and change, and it's understandable when some fans get upset. But this? Really? It's a new game on a new engine. Of course some characters will look different. We can't have a franchise where every single game, one after the other looks IDENTICAL to its first game. As a lot of people have pointed out, KHIII is going to have dynamic lightning (something which the franchise has avoided for a long time) and that can change game's characters and atmosphere tremendously. If people already started complaining about too oil-y skin textures and hair strands and whatnot, then i can't imagine what will happen when the final game comes out.

 

[kirabook]

It's the lighting.

Some people will complain about the textures and stuff, but after hearing personal commentary about the demo they played at E3, it's not the textures that are the problem. Aqua actually has pores on her skin. Her clothes are stitched (though that is clear from the trailer). Her model is just as detailed as the Backcover ones.

The "problem" is the lighting which yes, makes her (and Sora at times) look like rubbery plastic. Based on Backcover, plastic dolls is obviously NOT the intended look so offering some criticism or expressing ones views can certainly call attention to something that can be improved. They listen to us, especially the complaints (which is why they stressed the "No KH3" thing quite a lot)

Sometimes, the lighting isn't an issue because Aqua looks fantastic. Other times, the lighting looks misplaced and it makes her skin look like it's coated with oil or as others put it, like she's a plastic toy (Which I actually want, I want an Aqua figure in my house, yes plz) Backcover probably doesn't have this lighting issue most of the time because they are programming where the characters go and how they move, while in game, the player controls where Aqua goes and maybe they're having trouble calculating the lighting to make sure it isn't casting a strange light on her.

I mentioned this in another thread before, but I think the actual issue is what they have chosen for 'dark' lighting. In my opinion, Sora in most of the trailers now looks ok. (again, sometimes his face looks awkward because of lighting, not because something is wrong with the model) The only time I felt it was strange was during his keyblade transformation into guns. The area around him goes dark, and he noticeably looks more shiny than before. Aqua is in the dark realm and everything is dark, therefore, the 'shiny' lighting is cast on her almost non-stop.

I feel peoples concerns on the lighting is totally justified since this is the very first time Kingdom Hearts is getting dynamic lighting and the team is still tweaking it to make it work for them. It'll never look like the old games and that's a-ok. I LOVE the environments so far and they look fantastic. The environments don't have the same issues because they are stationary and so is their lighting. If they can get the dynamic lighting right on the character models, which I'm sure they will, I doubt there will be any huge concerns about the new style.