Ansem SoD NOT being Ansem a Retcon or a Plot Twist?



REGISTER TO REMOVE ADS

ReverofEnola

Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2016
Messages
184
Age
23
Location
Georgia
Website
www.youtube.com
  • Keyblade Master
Weird question but I'm honestly kind of going with both honestly but it's ultimately a retcon for me.

Like if you looked at KH2 by itself then it comes across as a plot twist.

HOWEVER, if you looked at the series as whole at the time it's a retcon due to neither KH1 or CoM hinting at him NOT being Ansem. Or does it even count as a retcon since certain characters just misinterpreted the events?

What are your thoughts?

Correction: CoM DOES somewhat provide a hint to Ansem SoD NOT being Ansem.
 
Last edited:

KeybladeKnightQ

New member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
107
Location
Ohio
Definitely a retcon Nomura did not plan on anything after the original KH however there was evidence on Ansem SOD not being the real Ansem in CoM. With 1. Diz’s Appearance itself and knowledge on Riku and Ansem before hand. 2. Mickey somehow “knowing” him from a familiar feeling. And the evidence about Nobodies existence with Ansem SOD’s “scent” being similar to the Organizations Leader.
 

ReverofEnola

Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2016
Messages
184
Age
23
Location
Georgia
Website
www.youtube.com
  • Keyblade Master
Definitely a retcon Nomura did not plan on anything after the original KH however there was evidence on Ansem SOD not being the real Ansem in CoM. With 1. Diz’s Appearance itself and knowledge on Riku and Ansem before hand. 2. Mickey somehow “knowing” him from a familiar feeling. And the evidence about Nobodies existence with Ansem SOD’s “scent” being similar to the Organizations Leader.
I agree with your first point but not your second point. Ansem SoD could HAVE STILL been the real Ansem but be a Heartless and have that Nobody be the leader of the Organization. Your 2nd point convinces me that Ansem SoD could have been a Heartless but not that he wasn't the real Ansem.

Heck, even your first point (which was the scene I was referring to) can even be misinterpreted without hindsight by it's side. Mickey could have easily met DiZ some other time and it could have been something non-Ansem related. Though I'm still mixed on this point.

HOWEVER, what DOES convince that Ansem SoD is more of a plot twist is the scene(s) of DiZ impersonating Ansem SoD. Those scenes in turn sort of validate your first point.
 

Sephiroth0812

Guardian of Light
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
10,222
Location
Germany
  • Cloaked Schemer
  • Taciturn Stalwart
  • Chilly Academic
  • Whirlwind Lancer
  • Ever Gentle and Kind
  • Fairest of them All
Strictly spoken it is both as KH 1 was originally planned as a stand-alone thing and eventual continuations being tentative/only in Nomura's head or scribbled notes, so that points into the "retcon" direction yet during KH 1 itself no one who actually should have known the original Ansem actually gets to see the "current" Ansem so SoD claiming that he's Ansem could not be disputed either in-universe nor meta-wise because of missing/not addressed information.

CoM did indeed cast first possible doubts on the whole thing with the introduction of DiZ and Mickey's distant feeling of familiarty with him, but it was very subtle and therefore "thin" as a setup.

These things can point into the "plot twist" direction during KH 2 and no matter how one looks at it, it ultimatively IS a plot twist either way, regardless if brought about via retcon or via actual preplanned storytelling.

A retcon is normally an action of going back on/changing already confirmed plot points/devices but the KH series has a knack for keeping things ambigious enough that the impression of a supposed "fact" gained by the fandom can be changed without it becoming a true retcon in the end.
Had the fanbase every reason to assume that Ansem of KH 1 actually is Ansem? Yes, undoubtly as with only the info from KH 1 and the rather subtle doubts seeded in CoM the story seemed that way at first.
Was it definitely confirmed that the Ansem of KH 1 actually is Ansem? No it wasn't because no one who could possibly verify the claim actually met/saw the Ansem of KH 1. The only people who saw "Ansem" in KH 1 were Sora, Riku, Kairi, Donald and Goofy, all who did not know how Ansem looked like in the past, so when this guy introduced himself as Ansem they (and the audience as well) had no reason to question it, making it a perceived fact but not an objective one.

Now as a counter example, if the series would suddenly declare that Kairi isn't a Princess of Heart (to take up an extreme case we truly had in this community some years ago), that would be a true objective retcon as her being one has been stated and verbally confirmed multiple times in multiple titles of the series and by multiple people as well.
There is close to no ambiguity left in this case.
 

ReverofEnola

Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2016
Messages
184
Age
23
Location
Georgia
Website
www.youtube.com
  • Keyblade Master
Strictly spoken it is both as KH 1 was originally planned as a stand-alone thing and eventual continuations being tentative/only in Nomura's head or scribbled notes, so that points into the "retcon" direction yet during KH 1 itself no one who actually should have known the original Ansem actually gets to see the "current" Ansem so SoD claiming that he's Ansem could not be disputed either in-universe nor meta-wise because of missing/not addressed information.

CoM did indeed cast first possible doubts on the whole thing with the introduction of DiZ and Mickey's distant feeling of familiarty with him, but it was very subtle and therefore "thin" as a setup.

These things can point into the "plot twist" direction during KH 2 and no matter how one looks at it, it ultimatively IS a plot twist either way, regardless if brought about via retcon or via actual preplanned storytelling.

A retcon is normally an action of going back on/changing already confirmed plot points/devices but the KH series has a knack for keeping things ambigious enough that the impression of a supposed "fact" gained by the fandom can be changed without it becoming a true retcon in the end.
Had the fanbase every reason to assume that Ansem of KH 1 actually is Ansem? Yes, undoubtly as with only the info from KH 1 and the rather subtle doubts seeded in CoM the story seemed that way at first.
Was it definitely confirmed that the Ansem of KH 1 actually is Ansem? No it wasn't because no one who could possibly verify the claim actually met/saw the Ansem of KH 1. The only people who saw "Ansem" in KH 1 were Sora, Riku, Kairi, Donald and Goofy, all who did not know how Ansem looked like in the past, so when this guy introduced himself as Ansem they (and the audience as well) had no reason to question it, making it a perceived fact but not an objective one.

Now as a counter example, if the series would suddenly declare that Kairi isn't a Princess of Heart (to take up an extreme case we truly had in this community some years ago), that would be a true objective retcon as her being one has been stated and verbally confirmed multiple times in multiple titles of the series and by multiple people as well.
There is close to no ambiguity left in this case.
YO! I didn't think of it like that. Especially the part about none of the KH1 cast not actually seeing the real Ansem and doing a fair comparison.
However, that TECHNICALLY falls flat with CoM since Mickey SHOULD have been able to identify that Ansem SoD was at the very minimum not the Ansem he met with. I mean putting aside Mickey identifying him as Xehanort (despite never seeing him or Terra before) did he really think that Ansem the Wise changed into Ansem SoD because of the darkness? Did he just forget what Ansem the Wise looked like? Or is he secretly a racist who thinks all humans look a like?


Anyway somewhat off-topic. Would Riku stating that the reason he wanted to discover other worlds (or just the fact the he knows that there ARE other worlds) was because of MX be a retcon? Since in KH1 he states that Kairi was the reason for this? Or was Riku just lying a little bit just so that he can put the moves on Kairi?
 

Caxinuld

New member
Joined
Sep 11, 2016
Messages
321
Ansem SoD not being Ansem is both a retcon and a really bad plot twist that always struck me as Nomura trying to pretend he was a complex writer by making Xehanort steal Ansem the Wise's name and naming his Heartless and Nobody after him.
 

Sephiroth0812

Guardian of Light
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
10,222
Location
Germany
  • Cloaked Schemer
  • Taciturn Stalwart
  • Chilly Academic
  • Whirlwind Lancer
  • Ever Gentle and Kind
  • Fairest of them All
YO! I didn't think of it like that. Especially the part about none of the KH1 cast not actually seeing the real Ansem and doing a fair comparison.
However, that TECHNICALLY falls flat with CoM since Mickey SHOULD have been able to identify that Ansem SoD was at the very minimum not the Ansem he met with. I mean putting aside Mickey identifying him as Xehanort (despite never seeing him or Terra before) did he really think that Ansem the Wise changed into Ansem SoD because of the darkness? Did he just forget what Ansem the Wise looked like? Or is he secretly a racist who thinks all humans look a like?


Anyway somewhat off-topic. Would Riku stating that the reason he wanted to discover other worlds (or just the fact the he knows that there ARE other worlds) was because of MX be a retcon? Since in KH1 he states that Kairi was the reason for this? Or was Riku just lying a little bit just so that he can put the moves on Kairi?
Main question is though did Mickey see Ansem SoD in person during CoM?
In KH 2 Mickey nonetheless needed quite some time and headscratching to remember that the "fake Ansem" actually is Xehanort yet he jumps up and yells "Ansem the Wise" the moment he sees his image on the computer screen so that he certainly remembers.
So if Mickey in CoM did get to see Ansem SoD in person (meaning as the audience saw him in KH 1 after shedding the "Mr. Robe-guy" appearance) there is indeed a discrepancy as he should have at least noticed that this really can't be Ansem the Wise at all.

Of course, Mickey does seem to be quite forgetful in general and considering the constant memory shenanigans it could still be explained away by claiming that by the time of KH 2 (which is one year later after all) he remembers again how Ansem the Wise looked like but by the time of CoM he didn't.
Yet like said, the whole setup is thin, hence why I would say it is both a retcon and a plot twist at the same time.
It certainly wasn't planned when KH 1 was made and while we do know that Nomura was making plans for KH 2 while working on CoM, we don't know how concrete these plans already were, which is honestly reflected in how vague and thin CoM is about it.

Now regarding the quality and the meaning of this twist regardless of origin that's something where opinions and interpretations can rightfully vary.

As far as I remember the reasons Riku wanted to discover other worlds are threefold as of BBS.
As a little child, his motivation came from the "kid who once left" (which is essentially MX), then came on top of this Terra (as Riku himself references in DDD) and then Kairi (as referenced in KH 1 and the last of three "omens" shown to Riku that outside worlds exist).
So I wouldn't really place this as a retcon but rather as an expansion to both the reasons and Riku's character. It is nowhere stated that the statements from KH 1 about Kairi being a reason are suddenly invalid just because there are others as well, although it does expand on Riku's character that he had the desire to see other worlds longer than for just the nine years since Kairi reached the islands.
It's similar to the age-old debate about Sora being THE Keyblade wielder and being A Keyblade Wielder and the Keyblade being ostensibly "unique" and there existing only one which wasn't true to begin with yet still seems to have some fans being bitter and peeved to this day.
 

DarkosOverlord

Bronze Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2016
Messages
2,667
Age
24
Location
Rome, Italy
  • Keyblade Master
  • You've Got A Friend In Me
  • The Foreteller
  • Savage Nymph
I agree with Sephiroth's first post about it being a plot twist of something not really confirmed by anyone other than Ansem himself, therefore not a "lorechanging" retcon.

About this new question about Mickey witnessing Ansem or not, I think we're being too sure about the fact that if Mickey did see Ansem SoD, he would've said something about it.
I don't think so. Mickey is notorious for actively knowing stuff and not telling it, either because "you're not ready yet" or because he made a promise.
In KH1 FM he seems pretty informed and seems to know exactly why Riku was in the Realm of Darkness; and in CoM he stopped Ansem far too many times, he must've had an idea of who he was facing. He prolly didn't tell Riku because there was no reason to or something like that (obviously ignoring the real reason, not spoiling the twist for the audience).
Hindsight being 20/20, he should've said something seen how both Ansem SoD and DiZ influenced Riku, but I don't blame him for that.
He was searching for the real Ansem and he possibly already knew that there was an impostor, but Riku had no part in his search. Informing would've been needlessly complicated.
 

Not Ienzo

New member
Joined
Jul 29, 2017
Messages
219
Location
Nowhere
Website
www.fanfiction.net
I'd call it a plot twist because it didn't necessarily change any plot points from KH1. Even though him actually being Xehanort's Heartless was kinda unnecessary and didn't need to happen, they didn't necessarily change the continuity of KH1 to make it possible. I'd say Riku's reason for wanting to leave the islands in BBS was more retcon-y for example, because it changed what was established in KH1 to make it so that it fits for the current situation of the story. Ansem not being Ansem doesn't affect KH1 in any way, it just expands on Ansem's character as a whole.

Like what a plot twist is supposed to do, it moves the story in an unexpected direction. You could say that some plot twists are retcons but in this case I don't really think that this is one. It's more along the lines of something to expand the lore than anything else.
 

ReverofEnola

Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2016
Messages
184
Age
23
Location
Georgia
Website
www.youtube.com
  • Keyblade Master
Main question is though did Mickey see Ansem SoD in person during CoM?
In KH 2 Mickey nonetheless needed quite some time and headscratching to remember that the "fake Ansem" actually is Xehanort yet he jumps up and yells "Ansem the Wise" the moment he sees his image on the computer screen so that he certainly remembers.
So if Mickey in CoM did get to see Ansem SoD in person (meaning as the audience saw him in KH 1 after shedding the "Mr. Robe-guy" appearance) there is indeed a discrepancy as he should have at least noticed that this really can't be Ansem the Wise at all.

Of course, Mickey does seem to be quite forgetful in general and considering the constant memory shenanigans it could still be explained away by claiming that by the time of KH 2 (which is one year later after all) he remembers again how Ansem the Wise looked like but by the time of CoM he didn't.
Yet like said, the whole setup is thin, hence why I would say it is both a retcon and a plot twist at the same time.
It certainly wasn't planned when KH 1 was made and while we do know that Nomura was making plans for KH 2 while working on CoM, we don't know how concrete these plans already were, which is honestly reflected in how vague and thin CoM is about it.

Now regarding the quality and the meaning of this twist regardless of origin that's something where opinions and interpretations can rightfully vary.

As far as I remember the reasons Riku wanted to discover other worlds are threefold as of BBS.
As a little child, his motivation came from the "kid who once left" (which is essentially MX), then came on top of this Terra (as Riku himself references in DDD) and then Kairi (as referenced in KH 1 and the last of three "omens" shown to Riku that outside worlds exist).
So I wouldn't really place this as a retcon but rather as an expansion to both the reasons and Riku's character. It is nowhere stated that the statements from KH 1 about Kairi being a reason are suddenly invalid just because there are others as well, although it does expand on Riku's character that he had the desire to see other worlds longer than for just the nine years since Kairi reached the islands.
It's similar to the age-old debate about Sora being THE Keyblade wielder and being A Keyblade Wielder and the Keyblade being ostensibly "unique" and there existing only one which wasn't true to begin with yet still seems to have some fans being bitter and peeved to this day.
Don't get me wrong I see and understand what you meant with Riku's motivation for discovering other worlds. Basically you are saying that that were multiple factors that led to Riku doing what he did and the new information presented in BBS serves to expand upon Riku's ideals.

However, I still feel think it feels a bit more retconned than it does plot twist or just an expansion of his ideals. Mainly because of his quote to Kairi being
"If you hadn't come here I probably would have never thought of any of this."

Really gives off the vibe of him never thinking about going to other worlds until Kairi showed up here. Like Riku had always wanted to get off the island on go on adventures and Kairi coming to Destiny Islands was basically sort of like his meal ticket. It was also probably another reason why he wanted to save Kairi so badly. Not just because they were best friends or because he distanced from Sora but because she was the main reason/motivation why he left in the first place. Again I know this is because of the whole KH1 was meant to be a standalone thing but it still feels like a retcon.

Which is kind of similar to Aqua's reaction to Ansem saying Sora and Riku's names in the Blank Points despite her already knowing about their heroic deeds (yeah even Riku) in 0.2. You COULD look at either them as a factor adding towards that scene or a retcon that changed their motivations. I say this knowing you think that it's both (which I agree with) but it sort of leans more towards retcon.
 

Tartarus

Bronze Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
2,296
  • Fairest of them All
I consider it a retcon. I mean the Ansem Reports from KH1 are explained away by KH2 as Ansem SoD just pretending to be the master while he was writing them, which is complete nonsense. How would the citizens/apprentices have ever believed him if he just up and tried to pretend to be the master? They all met Ansem the Wise.
 

FudgemintGuardian

"Indeeeeeeeeeeeeed."
Joined
Jan 16, 2012
Messages
5,380
  • The Foreteller
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
  • Savage Nymph
  • Come So Far
  • Beauty Within
  • O, Purest of Hearts
Strictly spoken it is both as KH 1 was originally planned as a stand-alone thing and eventual continuations being tentative/only in Nomura's head or scribbled notes, so that points into the "retcon" direction yet during KH 1 itself no one who actually should have known the original Ansem actually gets to see the "current" Ansem so SoD claiming that he's Ansem could not be disputed either in-universe nor meta-wise because of missing/not addressed information.

CoM did indeed cast first possible doubts on the whole thing with the introduction of DiZ and Mickey's distant feeling of familiarty with him, but it was very subtle and therefore "thin" as a setup.

These things can point into the "plot twist" direction during KH 2 and no matter how one looks at it, it ultimatively IS a plot twist either way, regardless if brought about via retcon or via actual preplanned storytelling.

A retcon is normally an action of going back on/changing already confirmed plot points/devices but the KH series has a knack for keeping things ambigious enough that the impression of a supposed "fact" gained by the fandom can be changed without it becoming a true retcon in the end.
Had the fanbase every reason to assume that Ansem of KH 1 actually is Ansem? Yes, undoubtly as with only the info from KH 1 and the rather subtle doubts seeded in CoM the story seemed that way at first.
Was it definitely confirmed that the Ansem of KH 1 actually is Ansem? No it wasn't because no one who could possibly verify the claim actually met/saw the Ansem of KH 1. The only people who saw "Ansem" in KH 1 were Sora, Riku, Kairi, Donald and Goofy, all who did not know how Ansem looked like in the past, so when this guy introduced himself as Ansem they (and the audience as well) had no reason to question it, making it a perceived fact but not an objective one.
Precisely. Something I like to add that I find interesting is how Ansem the Wise's face appears while as DiZ. He looks like Xehanort's Heartless, but...why? I could understand him not wanting to be recognized by his old apprentices, but was that face the best choice? Unless he figured "Well, if you're gonna use my name, then I'll use your face." But even then...

Speculation is speculation, but the more I look at Ansem the Wise's design as DiZ, and his character, the more it looks like Nomura planned for him to be the real one, but he didn't have ideas as to how, or too many ideas. Anyone remember those old theories on how DiZ was secretly the Organization's leader? In looking at the character, I'm starting to believe that DiZ and Ansem, Seeker of Darkness were originally planned to be the same person early on, but was changed to what we know do to circumstances like the creation of Xemnas.


Now as a counter example, if the series would suddenly declare that Kairi isn't a Princess of Heart (to take up an extreme case we truly had in this community some years ago), that would be a true objective retcon as her being one has been stated and verbally confirmed multiple times in multiple titles of the series and by multiple people as well.
There is close to no ambiguity left in this case.
You just haaaad to remind us of that particular incident, didn't you?


How would the citizens/apprentices have ever believed him if he just up and tried to pretend to be the master? They all met Ansem the Wise.
I'd really love to see the apprentices having to deal with this dingus calling himself Ansem, but as for the citizens, do we really know if Ansem the Wise's face is well known among them? I mean, I would assume so, but even if they do know, that doesn't mean that Apprentice Xehanort was prancing around town yelling "I'm Ansem!" to everyone he saw. When he and the other apprentices banished the real one, they probably would just tell the citizens that Ansem the Wise couldn't be out in public anymore, but hey he's trying some weird experiments. Want to volunteer?
 

Sephiroth0812

Guardian of Light
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
10,222
Location
Germany
  • Cloaked Schemer
  • Taciturn Stalwart
  • Chilly Academic
  • Whirlwind Lancer
  • Ever Gentle and Kind
  • Fairest of them All
Don't get me wrong I see and understand what you meant with Riku's motivation for discovering other worlds. Basically you are saying that that were multiple factors that led to Riku doing what he did and the new information presented in BBS serves to expand upon Riku's ideals.

However, I still feel think it feels a bit more retconned than it does plot twist or just an expansion of his ideals. Mainly because of his quote to Kairi being
"If you hadn't come here I probably would have never thought of any of this."

Really gives off the vibe of him never thinking about going to other worlds until Kairi showed up here. Like Riku had always wanted to get off the island on go on adventures and Kairi coming to Destiny Islands was basically sort of like his meal ticket. It was also probably another reason why he wanted to save Kairi so badly. Not just because they were best friends or because he distanced from Sora but because she was the main reason/motivation why he left in the first place. Again I know this is because of the whole KH1 was meant to be a standalone thing but it still feels like a retcon.

Which is kind of similar to Aqua's reaction to Ansem saying Sora and Riku's names in the Blank Points despite her already knowing about their heroic deeds (yeah even Riku) in 0.2. You COULD look at either them as a factor adding towards that scene or a retcon that changed their motivations. I say this knowing you think that it's both (which I agree with) but it sort of leans more towards retcon.
Ah, a fair point to be sure. If one takes this statement literally of course there is a little mismatch and considering the originally stand-alone-status of KH 1 one can come to the conclusion about this retconning Riku's motivations/ideals somewhat.
Most of the things BBS brought to the series' overall lore were planned and thought about by Nomura while he was working on KH 2, so by the time of KH 1 or CoM anything coming from there definitely wasn't yet set or planned for inclusion.
Then again though, retroactively expanding some parts of the lore aren't neccessarily something bad as long as they don't totally overthrow the in-universe logic.
By in-universe logic, it is also feasible to explain this statement of Riku away with the fact that Riku was five when the whole thing with Terra happened and when then there were ten years of nothing happening Riku simply switched to other priorities first/didn't think about leaving by himself and Kairi's arrival simply pushed him towards the realization that he was sick of waiting and start to take a proactive role.

So many of the more vocal fans complaining about Nomura's storytelling also apparently forget that very few storywriters or authors actually plan ahead everything in advance. Not even famous authors like J.R.R. Tolkien or G.R.R. Martin do this.
It's how such changes are implemented which do the trick.
Riku having more reasons for his motivation to leave Destiny Islands and explore the universe rather than solely Kairi's arrival isn't necessarily a total gamechanging thing that turns the whole lore around or makes Riku in any way OOC.

The addition of Mickey revealing Sora's and Riku's names to Aqua in 0.2 is, honestly, a more severe thing with the current state of information we have. Ansem the Wise only ever spoke of Sora in Blank Points by the way, but that isn't the "problematic" point here but rather that the way Aqua talks and asks in Blank Points comes over as if she hasn't got any information about what happened in the Realm of Light since she fell in at the end of BBS.

Now 0.2 however shows us that she was filled in on events by Mickey at least concerning KH 1 and while she meets Ansem a whole year later (CoM and KH 2 happened during that period which she doesn't have any info on as far as we know), which can explain her reactions by asserting that she was surprised about the worlds being in danger more than once and then relieved that while there's still no sign of Terra or Ven, Sora is still active and helping everywhere he can, according to what Ansem tells her about how Sora acts and what he does.
In 0.2 Mickey merely tells her that Sora and Riku are helping him without any further details while in Blank Points Ansem goes much more into detail (funny since he's supposed to be the one with almost no memories left, yet as I've stated earlier, one of Mickey's flaws in the KH-verse definitely seems to be that he's rather forgetful).

Now, while you can fit these things in and together without it becoming a total mess it certainly does take away some part of the "gravitas" of the original impact of this particular part of Blank Points, so I won't say that anyone who doesn't like this development is just a "dumb hater" or "one who can't put it together logically".
You can put it together logically and have it make sense in-universe (which is practically a sort of hobby for me personally), but that doesn't mean it is actually good storytelling or pacing.

As several others in the community already pointed out when 0.2 was new, I am as well of the opinion that it would have been better and more smooth to have Mickey and Aqua being separated before the events of the KH 1-Finale happen.
Yea, Aqua could have assisted Mickey in retrieving the Kingdom Key D, they could have even made this into a nice quest like Castle of Dreams and Dwarf Woodlands already had, having to face a boss there would also have been the prime opportunity for the break-up as the reasons to do so are manifold, like time running out and Mickey needing to hurry but not wanting to leave Aqua behind, yet she has to send him ahead and prevent the boss from falling into Mickey's flank.
This way, Aqua could have contributed to Mickey being there during the KH 1 finale in time without needing to be personally present and providing a reason for why Mickey didn't save her there and then that works better than the current one.

Precisely. Something I like to add that I find interesting is how Ansem the Wise's face appears while as DiZ. He looks like Xehanort's Heartless, but...why? I could understand him not wanting to be recognized by his old apprentices, but was that face the best choice? Unless he figured "Well, if you're gonna use my name, then I'll use your face." But even then...

Speculation is speculation, but the more I look at Ansem the Wise's design as DiZ, and his character, the more it looks like Nomura planned for him to be the real one, but he didn't have ideas as to how, or too many ideas. Anyone remember those old theories on how DiZ was secretly the Organization's leader? In looking at the character, I'm starting to believe that DiZ and Ansem, Seeker of Darkness were originally planned to be the same person early on, but was changed to what we know do to circumstances like the creation of Xemnas.
It could have been a deliberate ruse/red herring to throw off the audience, or indeed being part of an early concept that was changed later on during the production cycle.
As said, Nomura was planning and evaluating stuff for KH 2 while making CoM (just like he was planning concepts for BBS while making KH 2) but we don't know how the initial concepts looked like and how much and what was changed over time, so your idea certainly cannot be ruled out to be one of those early concepts.

You just haaaad to remind us of that particular incident, didn't you?
It's the most obvious example of what a full and true retcon of the lorechanging variety would be, sorry.

I'd really love to see the apprentices having to deal with this dingus calling himself Ansem, but as for the citizens, do we really know if Ansem the Wise's face is well known among them? I mean, I would assume so, but even if they do know, that doesn't mean that Apprentice Xehanort was prancing around town yelling "I'm Ansem!" to everyone he saw. When he and the other apprentices banished the real one, they probably would just tell the citizens that Ansem the Wise couldn't be out in public anymore, but hey he's trying some weird experiments. Want to volunteer?
Full agreement.
I doubt that Xehanort actually went around Radiant Garden in person and impersonated Ansem the Wise to the populace, that wouldn't have worked.
The apprentices, as far as we know, were in cahoots with him at least concerning the Heart experiments so one of them addressing the populace on "official events" (most likely Even or Braig) would probably always find some excuse/explanation as to why Ansem can't attend in person.

Of course it is possible that some citizens got suspicious as to why Ansem the Wise was never seen in person for quite some time, but you can bet that those people were likely the first "non-voluntary" test subjects for the more heinous experiments, courtesy of Dilan and Aeleus who as palace guards had quite some high authority and where probably strong enough to overpower almost any regular RG citizen.
 

Tartarus

Bronze Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
2,296
  • Fairest of them All
I don't buy that he could just not appear in public for, what, a year or more? But even if I did, it doesn't explain away Ansem SOD writing reports--that he thought only he would see--as if he was Ansem the Wise. Retcon.
 

DarkosOverlord

Bronze Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2016
Messages
2,667
Age
24
Location
Rome, Italy
  • Keyblade Master
  • You've Got A Friend In Me
  • The Foreteller
  • Savage Nymph
Is there any confirmation that the banishment of Ansem The Wise happened in a separate moment prior to the fall of Radiant Garden?
The way I see it, Xehanort called himself Ansem no sooner than when he banished the real Ansem and "destroyed" Radiant Garden. I don't think there was any moment when Ansem the Wise was missing but the world and population were still okay, I always thought all happened at the same time.
Also in KH1 Leon straight up says that everyone believed Ansem gave his life to protect the people from the Heartless (or something like that).

But even if I did, it doesn't explain away Ansem SOD writing reports--that he thought only he would see--as if he was Ansem the Wise. Retcon.
Because he believed he was Ansem. It wasn't just a ruse for the other characters, Ansem is who he was. He introduces himself as Ansem in KH1. Xemnas is the anagram of Ansem, not Xehanort. Braig called him Xehanort and he stated that that was not his name. He was Ansem (to quote Sanctuary backwards)
It makes sense he wrote the Diaries pretending to be Ansem, for in his mind he was no other person.
It's a silly "mystical" anime exchange of personalities, I concur, but Apprentice Xehanort wasn't the most balanced individual in the first place, with the fake/real/whatever memory loss and Terrra and Xehanort fighting inside of him.
 

Tartarus

Bronze Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
2,296
  • Fairest of them All
The Ansem Reports are clearly written before the destruction of Radiant Garden, when the experiments are happening, when he opens the door and breaks the world barrier, when he meets Mickey. There's no way Xehanort could've banished Ansem the Wise right when the world was destroyed and then still wrote those. And if he was writing those while Ansem the Wise was still there and actually believed he was Ansem, then there's no way Ansem the Wise wouldn't have noticed the man needed to be in an institution ASAP. Why would the apprentices even have continued to listen to the lunatic if he'd had that level of a mental breakdown?

I remember that dialogue from Leon, and I took it as that being what the survivors all assumed happened while RG was taken over by the Heartless, that Ansem must've gone down with the ship rather than leave like Leon and co. managed to do.
 
Last edited:

DarkosOverlord

Bronze Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2016
Messages
2,667
Age
24
Location
Rome, Italy
  • Keyblade Master
  • You've Got A Friend In Me
  • The Foreteller
  • Savage Nymph
The Ansem Reports are clearly written before the destruction of Radiant Garden, when the experiments are happening, when he opens the door and breaks the world barrier, when he meets Mickey. There's no way Xehanort could've banished Ansem the Wise right when the world was destroyed and then still wrote those. And if he was writing those while Ansem the Wise was still there and actually believed he was Ansem, then surely Ansem the Wise would've noticed the man needed to be in an instituation ASAP.
Fair enough, I keep forgetting that he writes about Mickey as well, despite the fact that he didn't have the conversation with him. Xehanort listened to the conversations between Ansem and Mickey and then wrote as if he was part of them.

To be fair, Ansem the Wise did notice the diaries that were written at the time. From Ansem's Secret Report #2:

A tiny king named Mickey came wielding a legendary key - the infamous "Keyblade," said to bring both chaos and prosperity to the world.
He was very knowledgeable on many topics, and we deepened our friendship as we conversed companionably.
Upon his advice, I decided to review the data obtained at my basement lab.
That is where I discovered the "Ansem Reports."
Though they bore my name, the only one I had written was number 0.
Apparently he had gone on to pen numbers 1 through 8 himself.
So Xehanort wrote the Diaries up until number 8 before banishing Ansem The Wise, so I stand corrected: in a way, he thought of himself as "Ansem" before putting his plan in motion.
And... I guess Ansem was banished before he could lock Xehanort in an asylum?
 

redcrown

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Messages
850
Not sure if it's a true retcon but it was as dumb pointless and detracting as one anyway. It feels like it murdered part of KH1 somehow.
 
Last edited:

ReverofEnola

Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2016
Messages
184
Age
23
Location
Georgia
Website
www.youtube.com
  • Keyblade Master
Not sure if it's a true retcon but it was as dumb pointless and detracting as one anyway. It feels like it murdered part of KH1 somehow.
Sigh.. to be fair at this point in the series practically everything from KH1 has been murdered:
Relevant Disney Worlds/Characters
Final Fantasy Characters
Capable Party Members
Keyblade wielders being somewhat unique
Simple Plot which didn't require the player to go online and search up past interviews in order to learn relevant and important information for the series. Mainly because the games themselves didn't explain it or just didn't explain well.
 
Top