Nobodies With Hearts

[Lunos]

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Roxas doesn't have a heart. Like you said Nobodies use the memories of their others to create a their presonality. Now the emotions Roxas had in the fake Twilight town were created by DiZ to prevent the Organization from locationing him. He did so to hopefully delay the Org. from finding him while Sora recovered.

How was DiZ able to create feelings and a personality of Roxas? I can't remember that something was said in the game how Roxas' character was influenced by DiZ.. Anyways.. Even if he did influence him, not from the very first beginning of his life. He was found by Xemnas who welcomed him to the Organisation XIII.. So, and now you want to persuade me that Roxas didn't have a character at all up to the point he was influenced by DiZ? Sounds very crazy. I can't believe that Roxas should have been lifeless all the time.
I wonder whether a human being is able to live, act and think if he doesn't have a personality. But you think, they would be able to?
​

 

[Lifes.Lover]

We don't really know why he was able to show emotions, aside from the 7 TT days. And, because Roxas was inserted into data, DiZ was able to make data projections of emotions and a personality. I like Roxas' personality outside of the data TT a lot better than the personality in data TT

There's my theory, that I stated earlier, about him emulating emotions from his soul having had the memories imprinted on him. There's also my other theory that because Sora still existed, he was able to emulate it, the two of them still being completely connected.

And then there's the fact that we don't know, and probably won't until 358/2 Days. It's not like there's anything that's saying what exactly caused him to show emotion.

For all we know, he could have been emotionless in the beginning, and then pretended to have emotions from the memories he obtained of the other Organization members who pretended, or the other people in the worlds he visited who did have real emotions.

 

[Shadowlight]

They don'y have hearts, but they seem closer to there emotions by far compared to the other Org members.
Maybe it's just because they're friends. Not many of the others have a relationship like theirs so emotionally they can have a deeper understanding of how they feel.
But, they don't have hearts.
At least they shouldn't.....

 

[Muse]

We don't really know why he was able to show emotions, aside from the 7 TT days. And, because Roxas was inserted into data, DiZ was able to make data projections of emotions and a personality. I like Roxas' personality outside of the data TT a lot better than the personality in data TT

There's my theory, that I stated earlier, about him emulating emotions from his soul having had the memories imprinted on him. There's also my other theory that because Sora still existed, he was able to emulate it, the two of them still being completely connected.

And then there's the fact that we don't know, and probably won't until 358/2 Days. It's not like there's anything that's saying what exactly caused him to show emotion.

For all we know, he could have been emotionless in the beginning, and then pretended to have emotions from the memories he obtained of the other Organization members who pretended, or the other people in the worlds he visited who did have real emotions.

It's possible, since we've seen scenes of him and Axel and Xion in Twilight Town, that while he was there, he observed other people and copied the emotions and feelings they did/had. That, or he picked up on his fake 'emotions' while observing the other members and their actions.

 

[Lifes.Lover]

Yay! Xeirei agreed with me.

I still like my soul theory, though.

 

[WilliamTheWise]

Thanks to you. ^^​

Your welcome.

How was DiZ able to create feelings and a personality of Roxas? I can't remember that something was said in the game how Roxas' character was influenced by DiZ.. Anyways.​

I'm not sure myself, but DiZ did say something about altering Roxas. ​

Even if he did influence him, not from the very first beginning of his life. He was found by Xemnas who welcomed him to the Organisation XIII.. So, and now you want to persuade me that Roxas didn't have a character at all up to the point he was influenced by DiZ? Sounds very crazy. I can't believe that Roxas should have been lifeless all the time.​

I never said he wouldn't have a personality before the opening of KH2. I think he might have created his own by copying the characters he meets at other worlds. We know that one of the Missions in 358/2 will be to spy on Belle and the Beast to understand the heart. Whose to say Roxas doesn't use this knowledge to create a personality for himself since he didn't have one from the start.​

Now Roxas's presonality before this time (In the fake Twilight Town) might have been created from his time interacting with people in other worlds. So in a way Roxas might create his own personality by copying the people in other worlds he meets.

I wonder whether a human being is able to live, act and think if he doesn't have a personality. But you think, they would be able to?​

I doubt it, our personality is what gives us the drive to live.

 

[Insomniac]

How was DiZ able to create feelings and a personality of Roxas? I can't remember that something was said in the game how Roxas' character was influenced by DiZ.. Anyways.. Even if he did influence him, not from the very first beginning of his life. He was found by Xemnas who welcomed him to the Organisation XIII.. So, and now you want to persuade me that Roxas didn't have a character at all up to the point he was influenced by DiZ? Sounds very crazy. I can't believe that Roxas should have been lifeless all the time.

I wonder whether a human being is able to live, act and think if he doesn't have a personality. But you think, they would be able to?​

Ansem the Wise did not create artificial emotions for Roxas. Roxas created emotions on his own. It is possible he has a Heart but, it wasn't shown leaving Sora in Hollow Bastion. Also Roxas would have been a complete being so, he would not have had to return to Sora. Also his Heart would have given him memories and emotions. From what we know he didn't have either but, artificial emotions anf feelings.

Welcome to KHInsider. PM me if you need a friend. Read the FAQ's and enjoy the Forums.

 

[Lunos]

I never said he wouldn't have a personality before the opening of KH2. I think he might have created his own by copying the characters he meets at other worlds. We know that one of the Missions in 358/2 will be to spy on Belle and the Beast to understand the heart. Whose to say Roxas doesn't use this knowledge to create a personality for himself since he didn't have one from the start.

Might be possible, but that theory doesn't persuade me that Roxas doesn't have a heart. To bad that we havn't seen much of how Roxas act when he was just born in TT, because you also doubt, we would not be able to live if we didn't have a personality.. So, but why was Roxas able to do anything, when he was just born? He hadn't seen a person before he could copy and imitate..

Have to go now, sleeping time.. xp

 

[WilliamTheWise]

Ansem the Wise did not create artificial emotions for Roxas.

Yes he did
Twilight Town Day 6
A flashback with Diz and Riku talking
YouTube - kingdom hearts 2 twilight town day 6 (9:30)

 

[Lifes.Lover]

Might be possible, but that theory doesn't persuade me that Roxas doesn't have a heart. To bad that we havn't seen much of how Roxas act when he was just born in TT, because you also doubt, we would not be able to live if we didn't have a personality.. So, but why was Roxas able to do anything, when he was just born? He hadn't seen a person before he could copy and imitate..

Have to go now, sleeping time.. xp

We would be automatons. You can live without having emotions. Emotions does not mean not being able to walk, or to talk.

If Roxas did have a heart, then how did he get one? The Artificial KH was not completed in time for anyone to regain a heart, Sora's heart was with him (hell, he was the heart), and it's not as though he could just take a Heartless and take its heart and use it as his own. Where would he have gotten it? And why would he have one, and not the others?

 

[Key of Valor]

Roxas probably does have Ven's heart. There's so much in the series that indicates
that Roxas has a heart, and there is oddly nothing confirming he doesn't have one.

 

[Lifes.Lover]

There's nothing confirming that he doesn't have a heart beyond the fact that he's a Nobody.

There's also nothing confirming that he does beyond the fact that he shows emotions- but that really doesn't mean that he has one.

 

[Muse]

Roxas probably does have Ven's heart. There's so much in the series that indicates
that Roxas has a heart, and there is oddly nothing confirming he doesn't have one.

If Roxas has Ven's heart, 1) Where did he get it? and 2) Why doesn't he have Ven's memories?

Roxas is a Nobody. By definition, he is solely the body and soul and lacks a heart.

And like LiLo said, he only shows emotions. That doesn't necessarily mean he has a heart. In the digital Traverse Town where we have the most examples of him having 'emotions', those emotions were created by DiZ to prevent the Organization from finding him, if you read WilliamtheWise's posts. Not only that, but Axel seems to have emotions. Does that mean he has a heart? Not necessarily. He, like the rest of the Organization members, have a tendency to pretend to have emotions and hearts so they'll 'feel' whole.

 

[Lifes.Lover]

The only reason that I can think of that Roxas would have a heart is because he does show emotions, when it's clear that he can't remember anything of Sora's life.

However, that does not mean he doesn't start imitating the emotions he sees in the people in the worlds he appears in. This gives me even more reason to like AkuRoku. He sees the emotion between Belle and Beast, and imitates it with Axel. Or Xion. But I like the thought of Axel more. It also doesn't mean that my theory on the soul being imprinted with the memories, too, as being wrong, either.

 

[Key of Valor]

Roxas is a special nobody, meaning that he could a wide variety of possible
differences that seperate him from normal Nobodies, even if one of these
differences is that he has a heart.

Roxas showing emotions is the weakest evidence that he has a heart.
Most Nobodies show emotion, but the key difference is that Nobodies
don't feel emotions. There is no way to know if Roxas can truly feel
any of the many emotions he express. If Roxas' thoughts had been
revealed to the audience, then perhaps there would be real evidence
on whether or not Roxas had a heart. Unfortunately the only thing
we have from the game are Roxas' words, and he doesn't seem to
address truly being able to feel a heart until he was on the Clocktower
with Axel, and even then he's not sure if he does or doesn't have a
heart, and his thoughts on the subject are left incomplete.

The reason I think Roxas has a heart is based a long list of small
little things. For one, he can wield the Keyblade, I know there is
an explanation in the game for why this is, but what if there was
another reason for him being qualified to wield one, like him having
a heart. Another reason why I think Roxas has the heart is because
despite how much Nomura has discusses him, he doesn't say that
Roxas doesn't have a heart. Also, Nomura at times has phrased
his comments on the Organization to avoid saying that they don't
have hearts.Then there is Roxas' ability to influence what Sora
felt when they merged together, it was similar to how Kairi
affect him in KH1 when her heart was in him. Despite not being
able to confirm if Roxas' emotions were truly felt by Roxas, fake
emotions shouldn't be able to influece real emotions in Sora,
it just wouldn't make sense. Also, I have previously theorized
about a special state of the heart a while ago to exlain someone
else's heart. After developing said theory, I noticed that Roxas'
behavior and qualities didn't just match the theory almost
perfectly, but if Roxas did have a heart and if it was in such
a state, then the theory would explain most all his mysteries
with no contradiction. And from there the list of reasons why
I think he has a heart goes on.

 

[Lifes.Lover]

Why must you format your text like this? It makes it every difficult to read.

Roxas is a special nobody, meaning that he could a wide variety of possible
differences that seperate him from normal Nobodies, even if one of these
differences is that he has a heart.

Ah, and there you have it. Roxas is a Special Nobody. Body+Soul+Heart=/= Nobody. It equals a Somebody. So, therefore, special or not, he would not be a Nobody at all if he had a heart. And until Nomura confirms this in one of the new games, I will assume that the rules of Nobodies stand true.

Roxas showing emotions is the weakest evidence that he has a heart.

Glad to know that you think this, too.

Most Nobodies show emotion, but the key difference is that Nobodies
don't feel emotions. There is no way to know if Roxas can truly feel
any of the many emotions he express. If Roxas' thoughts had been
revealed to the audience, then perhaps there would be real evidence
on whether or not Roxas had a heart. Unfortunately the only thing
we have from the game are Roxas' words, and he doesn't seem to
address truly being able to feel a heart until he was on the Clocktower
with Axel, and even then he's not sure if he does or doesn't have a
heart, and his thoughts on the subject are left incomplete.

Which is why I'm sure that Roxas does not have true feelings or a heart. Showing feelings does not mean he's doing anything more than imitating, much like the rest of the Organization. I'm pretty sure that he would know if he had a heart or not, for real, because he would notice the difference. The whole reason that the Organization 'hates' not having hearts is because of the emptiness they feel, and that they can't feel.

The reason I think Roxas has a heart is based a long list of small
little things. For one, he can wield the Keyblade, I know there is
an explanation in the game for why this is, but what if there was
another reason for him being qualified to wield one, like him having
a heart.

Until confirmed otherwise by Nomura and the games, I will assume that Roxa can wield the keyblade due to his connection with Sora. Even if he did have a heart, there is no reason for his heart to be strong enough to wield a keyblade through anything but the ties to Sora.

Another reason why I think Roxas has the heart is because
despite how much Nomura has discusses him, he doesn't say that
Roxas doesn't have a heart. Also, Nomura at times has phrased
his comments on the Organization to avoid saying that they don't
have hearts.Then there is Roxas' ability to influence what Sora
felt when they merged together, it was similar to how Kairi
affect him in KH1 when her heart was in him.

Roxas can influence because they were always connected, and because he's a part of Sora. He's made of Sora's body and soul, and thus has can influence Sora more than anyone else can- including Kairi and her heart. He influences Sora because he is Sora.

Despite not being
able to confirm if Roxas' emotions were truly felt by Roxas, fake
emotions shouldn't be able to influece real emotions in Sora,
it just wouldn't make sense. Also, I have previously theorized
about a special state of the heart a while ago to exlain someone
else's heart. After developing said theory, I noticed that Roxas'
behavior and qualities didn't just match the theory almost
perfectly, but if Roxas did have a heart and if it was in such
a state, then the theory would explain most all his mysteries
with no contradiction. And from there the list of reasons why
I think he has a heart goes on.

Since I have not read this theory, and have no intention of doing so, you really cannot bring that evidence in here, seeing as how no one knows this theory, or what it really pertains to. Even if Roxas' characteristics match your theory, it only matches your theory, and we all know that theories aren't the actual fact, no matter how plausible they seem, until confirmed by the game.

 

[Key of Valor]

Ah, and there you have it. Roxas is a Special Nobody. Body+Soul+Heart=/= Nobody. It equals a Somebody. So, therefore, special or not, he would not be a Nobody at all if he had a heart. And until Nomura confirms this in one of the new games, I will assume that the rules of Nobodies stand true.

Being a special nobody might mean that he isn't a Nobody. The reason he is classified as a special
nobody is because he is different from normal Nobodies. Possibly he could be so different that he
is not even technically a Nobody. There are requirements and rules to define a Nobody, and since
Roxas is doesn't actually correspond to these completely, either he's not a Nobody, or the rules
and requirements are different than what is believed. Whatever the case, there is no such thing
as an exception to rules.

Which is why I'm sure that Roxas does not have true feelings or a heart.

Why? How can you be sure when you don't even know that he feels nothing?

I'm pretty sure that he would know if he had a heart or not, for real, because he would notice the difference. The whole reason that the Organization 'hates' not having hearts is because of the emptiness they feel, and that they can't feel.

That's just it though, Roxas doesn't know if he has a heart or not, so he can't hate the emptiness
of not having a heart, because he can't feel that emptiness. If he could feel that emptiness, he
would not have doubts of not having a heart.

Roxas can influence because they were always connected, and because he's a part of Sora. He's made of Sora's body and soul, and thus has can influence Sora more than anyone else can- including Kairi and her heart. He influences Sora because he is Sora.

He shouldn't be able to influence his feelings if Roxas doesn't have any feelings himself. That's basic logic right there.

Since I have not read this theory, and have no intention of doing so, you really cannot bring that evidence in here, seeing as how no one knows this theory, or what it really pertains to. Even if Roxas' characteristics match your theory, it only matches your theory, and we all know that theories aren't the actual fact, no matter how plausible they seem, until confirmed by the game.

I didn't say it was evidence, I said it was one of my personal reasons.
Attention to details is an important skill, as well as avoiding to make
closed minded assumptions.

 

[Muse]

Being a special nobody might mean that he isn't a Nobody. The reason he is classified as a special
nobody is because he is different from normal Nobodies. Possibly he could be so different that he
is not even technically a Nobody. There are requirements and rules to define a Nobody, and since
Roxas is doesn't actually correspond to these completely, either he's not a Nobody, or the rules
and requirements are different than what is believed. Whatever the case, there is no such thing
as an exception to rules.

As far as I can tell, the only thing really making Roxas a special Nobody is because he is the Nobody of a Keyblade Wielder. And I know I'm going to get flamed for this. He still was created the same way as a regular Nobody, he's still made up of the same composition a regular Nobody would be made up of, the only differences would be 1) He doesn't have any memories of Sora, Sora having been purified of his Heartless status and no longer losing his memories, 2) He wields a Keyblade, though that could easily be explained as he's Sora's Nobody and that's his connection to Sora, and 3) He doesn't hold that much similarity between himself and Sora, but rather looks like Ven instead.

How does Roxas not correspond to the rules and requirements to define a Nobody? Sora willingly gave up his heart and became a Heartless, his body and soul going on to become Roxas. Roxas is made up of Sora's body and soul and doesn't, in theory, have a heart. How does that not correspond to the rules and requirements to define a Nobody?

There are exceptions to rules. Or have you not read Audo's thread containing rules and their exceptions in Kingdom Hearts?

 

[Key of Valor]

As far as I can tell, the only thing really making Roxas a special Nobody is because he is the Nobody of a Keyblade Wielder. And I know I'm going to get flamed for this. He still was created the same way as a regular Nobody, he's still made up of the same composition a regular Nobody would be made up of, the only differences would be 1) He doesn't have any memories of Sora, Sora having been purified of his Heartless status and no longer losing his memories, 2) He wields a Keyblade, though that could easily be explained as he's Sora's Nobody and that's his connection to Sora, and 3) He doesn't hold that much similarity between himself and Sora, but rather looks like Ven instead.

How does Roxas not correspond to the rules and requirements to define a Nobody? Sora willingly gave up his heart and became a Heartless, his body and soul going on to become Roxas. Roxas is made up of Sora's body and soul and doesn't, in theory, have a heart. How does that not correspond to the rules and requirements to define a Nobody?

There are exceptions to rules. Or have you not read Audo's thread containing rules and their exceptions in Kingdom Hearts?

(rats, foiled again, someone realized that Roxas isn't all that special)

Yeah, it's true. Based on common beliefs, only Roxas' lack of memories and Keyblade wielding
abilities are what qualify him as a special nobody. So it's not so much Roxas in an exception,
it's what he can do that is the exception, which is wield the Keyblade. So I guess Roxas being
called a special nobody is a waste of time, cause the only real rules he is braking is the rule in
KH1 of only stong heart individuals being able to wield Keyblades. So once again either those
Key shaped weapons he wields are not Keyblades, or we don't have the proper rules about
Keyblades.

Despite the lack of evidence to suggest Roxas is an exception to rules involving Nobodies,
the absent of evidence is not the evidence of absence (I enjoy using that quote).

And I have seen Audo's thread BUT I don't agree with it only because I believe rules
don't have exceptions. If something doesn't follow a rule, then that means you just
don't know enough about the circumstances of that something or you don't know
enough about what the rules really are.

 

[Smile]

And I have seen Audo's thread BUT I don't agree with it only because I believe rules
don't have exceptions. If something doesn't follow a rule, then that means you just
don't know enough about the circumstances of that something or you don't know
enough about what the rules really are.

That's why Naminé's an Unbirth! !

*dodges the bullets*