Why were Hayner Pence and Olette on the destiny islands? (Fun discussion)

[Zackarix]

The apprentices performed unethical experiments on human souls to the point where their world ended. When Ansem told them to stop they banished him and continued. And even after they lost their homeworld they didn't stop and instead founded a cult that was putting all the worlds in danger.

Aeleus and Dilan were active participants, KH3 clarifies that they were researchers as well as guards. They don't get a pass just because their models aren't wearing lab coats.

I know protagonist centered morality is a thing, but you're comparing characters who at worst ruined the lives of a few individuals to characters who at best destroyed a city.

 

[Face My Fears]

But that was just some fans' misunderstanding, wasn't it? And in many cases, it was an intentional one, because they wanted to ship Axel/Roxas and didn't want to have awkward age difference between them.


He asked Kairi to call him Axel when they were training together. I think he said it somewhere else as well, but I can't find it. He also uses it himself, as in "No-one axes Axel."

I don't know how one fan's "misunderstanding" can cause fans across the globe to believe that Axel was in his late teens... until BbS clarified it. Also - not that I ship them at all - but how does age even work for nobodies? Axel and Saix were in nobody form for 10 years, then Saix was briefly Isa again before turning back into Saix. Does the time that passes for Axel and Saix affect the ages of Lea and Isa?

And I suppose that whole recusant sigil scene in ReMIND was basically Axel, Roxas and Xion accepting the X and choosing to keep it.

Honestly I'd put Even on the other apprentices level. He hasn't really done anything onscreen. We can only go by what we're told about the experiments they did in the castle. As for why not have a Radiant Garden party, why do the heroes need to party with Ansem's crew? They barely know them. Again, these are grown men likely more concerned with restoring their world then partying on the beach with some kids. As funny as it would be to see Dilan and Aeleus on the beach looking out of place and not talking lol.

Vexen created all of the replicas. He basically created two children whose sole purpose was to be manipulated and abused (Riku Replica and Xion). How did Xaldin messing with The Beast's rose or Lexaeus annoying Riku compare to that!?

There was a party at DISNEY Castle, why can't there be a party at Radiant Garden castle? Leon and the gang helped Sora. The Radiant Garden guest list could have been: Leon, Aerith, Yuffie, Cid, Cloud, Tifa, Rinoa (surprise special guest appearance), Merlin, Remy, The Fairy Godmother, Tron (in replica body), Ansem The Wise, Dilan, Even, Aeleus, and Ienzo. I'm just saying that more people could have gotten the invite or they could have shown a clip of another party somewhere.

 

[Elysium]

There was a party at DISNEY Castle, why can't there be a party at Radiant Garden castle? Leon and the gang helped Sora. The Radiant Garden guest list could have been: Leon, Aerith, Yuffie, Cid, Cloud, Tifa, Rinoa (surprise special guest appearance), Merlin, Remy, The Fairy Godmother, Tron (in replica body), Ansem The Wise, Dilan, Even, Aeleus, and Ienzo. I'm just saying that more people could have gotten the invite or they could have shown a clip of another party somewhere.

I would've loved a little clip like that showing those characters celebrating, too (particularly TRON included), just like Mickey and all at Disney Castle was shown briefly.

As an aside, I briefly wrote a fun post yesterday pointing out how the Apprentices even killed Bambi's mother (!!!) technically, but I couldn't think of a way to fit it into the conversation... I get SweetYetSalty's point that almost everybody's been redeemed at this point, no use being picky about who can't be, I guess.

 

[Chie]

Does the time that passes for Axel and Saix affect the ages of Lea and Isa?

Yes, absolutely. Ienzo was turned into a nobody when he was a short child and grew up to his full height by the time of CoM, then when he was recompleted he was still full size.

Or if you're saying they wouldn't have mentally aged, I don't know why, since they were alive and having life experiences, which is what mentally ageing is.

 

[LoneFox]

I don't know how one fan's "misunderstanding" can cause fans across the globe to believe that Axel was in his late teens... until BbS clarified it.

One fan's? I think you misread my post. It has a plural form (fans'), not singular (fan's) in it.
(And I probably should try to avoid that particular quirk of English grammar, since this is not the first time i've seen it to cause trouble... )

 

[SweetYetSalty]

I know protagonist centered morality is a thing, but you're comparing characters who at worst ruined the lives of a few individuals to characters who at best destroyed a city.

My thing is if we are going to throw stones at Ansem and the apprentices then throw them at other former villains. There is a child abusing psychopath running around the beach at the end of KH3, redeemed by one single act. Didn't even have a real redemption arc and now all is forgiven. If everyone is willing to forgive him then why are the apprentices getting so much pushback when they've had more onscreen redemption, at least in the case of Ansem, Ienzo and Even? I don't care the size of the crime, because now we're just picking and choosing who deserves forgiveness based on how big the crime is or from the circumstance of their background which shouldn't be the case.

Vexen created all of the replicas. He basically created two children whose sole purpose was to be manipulated and abused (Riku Replica and Xion). How did Xaldin messing with The Beast's rose or Lexaeus annoying Riku compare to that!?

There was a party at DISNEY Castle, why can't there be a party at Radiant Garden castle? Leon and the gang helped Sora. The Radiant Garden guest list could have been: Leon, Aerith, Yuffie, Cid, Cloud, Tifa, Rinoa (surprise special guest appearance), Merlin, Remy, The Fairy Godmother, Tron (in replica body), Ansem The Wise, Dilan, Even, Aeleus, and Ienzo. I'm just saying that more people could have gotten the invite or they could have shown a clip of another party somewhere.

True, Vexen created the replicas. How those replicas were treated falls out of his hands, though he did allow Larxene to rewrite Riku Replica's memories. I'm not saying he's innocent, he's not. But I don't think he's worse then Xaldin, not that it's a contest, they are all criminals. As for Lexaeus, I always go back to that Roxas slap, over the Riku fight. Now these are two characters who need to talk out their issues in therapy lol.

 

[Zackarix]

My thing is if we are going to throw stones at Ansem and the apprentices then throw them at other former villains. There is a child abusing psychopath running around the beach at the end of KH3, redeemed by one single act. Didn't even have a real redemption arc and now all is forgiven. If everyone is willing to forgive him then why are the apprentices getting so much pushback when they've had more onscreen redemption, at least in the case of Ansem, Ienzo and Even? I don't care the size of the crime, because now we're just picking and choosing who deserves forgiveness based on how big the crime is or from the circumstance of their background which shouldn't be the case.

Ansem should not be lumped in with the apprentices. He ordered them to stop the experiments early on and eventually became one of their victims. And even after he became DiZ he admitted to his wrongs and apologized in the same game he committed them in and laid the foundation to bring Roxas back. It wasn't handled perfectly (there's a lot of character development missing in the middle) but that's a great deal better than most redemptions in the series.

It's sort of weird to give Vexen more credit than Saix because his redemption was more "on screen" when Saix was the one who arranged for Vexen's actions. Though Vexen's redemption wasn't handled very well either. The replicas seemed to have Xehanort at least as much as they helped the heroes.

But to try to get back to the actual topic, maybe the reason Ansem and the apprentices weren't at the beach party is because they declined to go? Not everyone likes beaches or parties.

 

[Face My Fears]

One fan's? I think you misread my post. It has a plural form (fans'), not singular (fan's) in it.
(And I probably should try to avoid that particular quirk of English grammar, since this is not the first time i've seen it to cause trouble... )

I was reacting with hyperbole. I was equating "some fans" to barely anyone - IE one fan.

Some fans on a random, fringe KH website more than 15 years ago would not have enough power to influence Axel's age being confirmed as late teens - back then.

True, Vexen created the replicas. How those replicas were treated falls out of his hands, though he did allow Larxene to rewrite Riku Replica's memories. I'm not saying he's innocent, he's not. But I don't think he's worse then Xaldin, not that it's a contest, they are all criminals. As for Lexaeus, I always go back to that Roxas slap, over the Riku fight. Now these are two characters who need to talk out their issues in therapy lol.

Xemnas didn't know how to use the technology. Vexen had to operate the data transfer machine and put the batteries into the replicas, so he definitely was part of the problem.

 

[Sonofjafar]

In the immortal words of Mr Hippo, “not every story has to have significance, ya know? Sometimes uhh, you know, sometimes a story is just a story. You try to read into every little thing and find meaning in everything anyone says, you’ll just drive yourself crazy.”

 

[vaderskywalker]

In the immortal words of Mr Hippo, “not every story has to have significance, ya know? Sometimes uhh, you know, sometimes a story is just a story. You try to read into every little thing and find meaning in everything anyone says, you’ll just drive yourself crazy.”

Was that supposed to be directed to me and my thread, or someone else?

 

[BufferAqua]

I think it was just directed to the thread as a whole. I could be wrong tho.

 

[Dandelion]

Now I'm also wondering how it was allowed for Riku to ruin world order by landing the Gummi Ship physically in Radiant Garden, instead of using the teleportation device and beaming Namine to the bridge of the Gummi Ship.

The people of RG saw countless strangers arrive on their home, saw Maleficent invade it, escaped the destruction/turned into Heartless and made their way back to the world after it was restored, only to be threatened by the organization and more world-order-breaking bullshit. Or they worked for Ansem and researched the worlds and hearts first-hand.
I'd be shocked if anyone on Radiant Garden's soil was ignorant of other worlds.

 

[Face My Fears]

The people of RG saw countless strangers arrive on their home, saw Maleficent invade it, escaped the destruction/turned into Heartless and made their way back to the world after it was restored, only to be threatened by the organization and more world-order-breaking bullshit. Or they worked for Ansem and researched the worlds and hearts first-hand.
I'd be shocked if anyone on Radiant Garden's soil was ignorant of other worlds.

Have we seen characters that live in Radiant Garden that AREN'T already aware of other worlds?

Also, when the worlds are destroyed by darkness, doesn't it wipe the minds of the victims of before the darkness attacked?

 

[Elysium]

Have we seen characters that live in Radiant Garden that AREN'T already aware of other worlds?

Also, when the worlds are destroyed by darkness, doesn't it wipe the minds of the victims of before the darkness attacked?

I always assumed so. Summons like Simba and Mushu remembered Sora, but I'm not sure if they remember the events in context (IE, my world was destroyed by darkness and then I fought with Sora to revive it) or if it's more like how Hayner, Pence, and Olette felt a connection to Sora without knowing how or why.

 

[Zackarix]

I was reacting with hyperbole. I was equating "some fans" to barely anyone - IE one fan.

Some fans on a random, fringe KH website more than 15 years ago would not have enough power to influence Axel's age being confirmed as late teens - back then.

Are you unfamiliar with the concept of fanon? Sometimes fan ideas gain traction to the point that fans become surprised to find out they aren't canon. It could be because it's a logical but unconfirmed extrapolation of canon, or a filling in a gap (such as providing a name to an unnamed character or location), or because it's just a neat idea.

In this specific case, fans had a character with no given age even if he appeared to be an adult. Said character's most popular ship by a significant margin involved pairing him up with a teenager. Shippers want to remove any possible objection to their ship, so they fully embrace the fact that he had no given age and there was nothing saying that he wasn't a very tall teenager, portraying him as such in their fanworks. And when you have enough fanworks with the same idea it can start leaking out of the niche it was intended to occupy.

And then later canon comes out and completely ignores the fan idea and the are people who insist it was changed despite never being official in the first place.

 

[Dandelion]

Have we seen characters that live in Radiant Garden that AREN'T already aware of other worlds?

Also, when the worlds are destroyed by darkness, doesn't it wipe the minds of the victims of before the darkness attacked?

Radiant Garden was ravaged by Heartless, but it didn't fall to Darkness like the other worlds did...because we got to visit it intact in KH1. That wouldn't have been possible if it was destroyed.

 

[vaderskywalker]

Radiant Garden was ravaged by Heartless, but it didn't fall to Darkness like the other worlds did...because we got to visit it intact in KH1. That wouldn't have been possible if it was destroyed.

Agreed

 

[Sonofjafar]

I think it was just directed to the thread as a whole. I could be wrong tho.

Correct.

Also if I were to wager a guess as to the answer to the original question: it’s that the world order has been ignored so many times since kh1 that it might as well no longer be a factor in anything

 

[vaderskywalker]

Correct.

Also if I were to wager a guess as to the answer to the original question: it’s that the world order has been ignored so many times since kh1 that it might as well no longer be a factor in anything

But it's there for a reason, to stop people like Maleficent from causing chaos by attacking worlds, granted that is kind of out of the window now but still, they have to keep order somehow.

 

[Chie]

But it's there for a reason, to stop people like Maleficent from causing chaos by attacking worlds, granted that is kind of out of the window now but still, they have to keep order somehow.

I am curious as to how Mickey Mouse telling his friends not to reveal they're from other worlds stops anyone from "causing chaos". And what "keeping order" actually is as a concept and why anyone "has" to do it.

If we look at the actual contents of the series for a moment, the concept was almost - well, let's say definitely, invented by Keyblader society, since it's around in Dark Road. On its total face value, then, it's the concept of "we keyblade wielders are more Evolved and Smarter, we can't let the lesser people know about our level". Rulers and police officers do have a vested interest in "order", yes. And stopping anyone from "causing chaos" because they "have" to.

Of course, that's not really what it is, because what it really is is explained in Dark Road, but the fandom has not internalized this yet.