Why were Hayner Pence and Olette on the destiny islands? (Fun discussion)

[Face My Fears]

HPO get a free pass because they're KHOCs and otherwise not Donald Goofy or Mickey. Ansem and his rrsearchers wouldve been on DI (and in fact, Ansem himself was on DI in DDD now that I think about it) if they werent busy scanning stuff.

What were Ansem and his employees so busy scanning lol.

I think the reasons they didn't get invites to the beach party are simple:
1. Ansem The Wise: Manipulated Riku and Namine to get revenge on Xehanort. He also psychologically manipulated and abused Roxas to bring back Sora, again to get revenge on Xehanort.
2. Ienzo, Even, Dilan, and Aeleus: They all tried to kill Sora and Riku.

The REAL mystery is why Riku didn't invite Leon and the gang, especially because he was already parked in Radiant Garden AND Cid has a fleet of Gummi Ships. It must have been really hurtful for the Final Fantasy crew to see the Gummi Ship pull up, then Namine hop in and they fly away. (Now I'm also wondering how it was allowed for Riku to ruin world order by landing the Gummi Ship physically in Radiant Garden, instead of using the teleportation device and beaming Namine to the bridge of the Gummi Ship).

 

[Chie]

If the writers don't care about anything Xaldin and Lexaeus ever did, then I don't think Sora does.

Honestly it's like a less than a minute long clip in a montage, I'm sure everyone hung out off screen in various times and places besides this single minute in time.

 

[vaderskywalker]

What were Ansem and his employees so busy scanning lol.

I think the reasons they didn't get invites to the beach party are simple:
1. Ansem The Wise: Manipulated Riku and Namine to get revenge on Xehanort. He also psychologically manipulated and abused Roxas to bring back Sora, again to get revenge on Xehanort.
2. Ienzo, Even, Dilan, and Aeleus: They all tried to kill Sora and Riku.

The REAL mystery is why Riku didn't invite Leon and the gang, especially because he was already parked in Radiant Garden AND Cid has a fleet of Gummi Ships. It must have been really hurtful for the Final Fantasy crew to see the Gummi Ship pull up, then Namine hop in and they fly away. (Now I'm also wondering how it was allowed for Riku to ruin world order by landing the Gummi Ship physically in Radiant Garden, instead of using the teleportation device and beaming Namine to the bridge of the Gummi Ship).

Riku was forgiven for his actions, why wouldn't they be forgiven, and Ienzo, Even, Dilan, and Aeleus, were different from there Nobodies to begin with, after all Lea was a Nobody that was trying the same thing, and Isa too?

 

[Zackarix]

The REAL mystery is why Riku didn't invite Leon and the gang, especially because he was already parked in Radiant Garden AND Cid has a fleet of Gummi Ships.

They have Final Fantasy cooties, and as a result have been demoted from major supporting characters to cameo if they're lucky.

 

[Face My Fears]

If the writers don't care about anything Xaldin and Lexaeus ever did, then I don't think Sora does.

Honestly it's like a less than a minute long clip in a montage, I'm sure everyone hung out off screen in various times and places besides this single minute in time.

I can see Sora hanging out with Ienzo since he's young. But why would Sora want to hang out with Ansem, Dilan and Aeleus? Dilan and Aeleus are like 40 and Ansem The Wise is like 80.

Riku was forgiven for his actions, why wouldn't they be forgiven, and Ienzo, Even, Dilan, and Aeleus, were different from there Nobodies to begin with, after all Lea was a Nobody that was trying the same thing, and Isa too?

Isa got an invite because Lea vouched for him. Even, Dilan and Aeleus never apologized to Sora, so I guess they didn't get invited.

They have Final Fantasy cooties, and as a result have been demoted from major supporting characters to cameo if they're lucky.

My headcanon is that Leon and the gang bailed on Sora's beach party to attend Tidus, Wakka and Selphie's on the main island.

 

[Chie]

I can see Sora hanging out with Ienzo since he's young. But why would Sora want to hang out with Ansem, Dilan and Aeleus? Dilan and Aeleus are like 40 and Ansem The Wise is like 80.

I apologize for the very literal image of hanging out you imagined from my post saying "I don't think 45 seconds is the totality of post-story character interaction"

 

[SweetYetSalty]

What were Ansem and his employees so busy scanning lol.

I think the reasons they didn't get invites to the beach party are simple:
1. Ansem The Wise: Manipulated Riku and Namine to get revenge on Xehanort. He also psychologically manipulated and abused Roxas to bring back Sora, again to get revenge on Xehanort.
2. Ienzo, Even, Dilan, and Aeleus: They all tried to kill Sora and Riku.

And yet Isa is just as bad as Ansem the Wise and the apprentices (In some cases worse) and not only is he allowed free pass to not only Twilight Town and Destiny Islands, but to hang out with kids he abused, manipulated, and plotted/tried to murder. So that's a double standard if they aren't invited but he is.

More then likely Ansem and the apprentices didn't go to the beach because they have actual work to do in restoring Radiant Garden and undoing all the bad things they did. They are grownups who do not "play" with children. They are atoning in their own way is all. We see that Riku and Kairi still go to them for help.

 

[palizinhas]

Fascinated by the idea of Ansem and the Apprentices being invited to a beach party made up of teenagers and adults basically treated as teenagers.

Aeleus and Dilan getting tanned at the beach and then complaining about the children these days when Roxas runs over their stomachs while trying to catch up to Riku on their race.

Ansem lecturing Ienzo about the Islands flora.

 

[Face My Fears]

And yet Isa is just as bad as Ansem the Wise and the apprentices (In some cases worse) and not only is he allowed free pass to not only Twilight Town and Destiny Islands, but to hang out with kids he abused, manipulated, and plotted/tried to murder. So that's a double standard if they aren't invited but he is.

More then likely Ansem and the apprentices didn't go to the beach because they have actual work to do in restoring Radiant Garden and undoing all the bad things they did. They are grownups who do not "play" with children. They are atoning in their own way is all. We see that Riku and Kairi still go to them for help.

Isn't Isa 18? Or did his age get retconned along with Lea's? And how can Isa be charged with so much, when Lea did even worse!? Just because Lea saved Sora and got a keyblade, he gets a pass?

What work do they have to do? Their job that day was to wake up Namine and get her ready for the beach party - which they failed at because no one could buy the girl a new dress!? Tear down a curtain in the damn castle or something! And even if Ansem, Dilan, Aeleus and Even do not "play with children", they could have all gone to the beach and celebrated together.

 

[LoneFox]

Isn't Isa 18? Or did his age get retconned along with Lea's?

They both were teenagers in BBS 12 years earlier, so they are in their late 20s now. I don't see any retcon here.
By the way, I think we should use the name Axel instead of Lea, since he said himself that he prefers it. It also makes sense, because Lea is a female name and Axel is obviously a man.

The answer to the thread title question is, because Roxas invited them. Considering the history between the two, Riku is not in position to argue with him. Also, does Riku even know about the concept of World Order? And if he does, why would he care about it?

 

[SweetYetSalty]

Isn't Isa 18? Or did his age get retconned along with Lea's? And how can Isa be charged with so much, when Lea did even worse!? Just because Lea saved Sora and got a keyblade, he gets a pass?

What work do they have to do? Their job that day was to wake up Namine and get her ready for the beach party - which they failed at because no one could buy the girl a new dress!? Tear down a curtain in the damn castle or something! And even if Ansem, Dilan, Aeleus and Even do not "play with children", they could have all gone to the beach and celebrated together.

The point I'm trying to make is Ansem, Dilan, Aeleus, Even and Ienzo are no worse then Isa and Lea, two characters who get far too much lenience and get off relatively easy despite their crimes, though at least Lea had something of a onscreen arc, bad as it was. I'd argue Ansem the Wise is the second most redeemed character behind Riku. It's not that they were not invited because the heroes hold a grudge, we see how disgustingly forgiving the heroes are no matter how heinous the villains are to them. Ansem's crew might not even like the beach and prefer to stay in their lab, they have their own thing going on separate from Sora's group.

 

[Chie]

I would give Axel and Isa (and Ienzo) some leeway due to them seemingly being victims of the older characters, although the details about Radiant Garden's systemic child abuse (!?!?!?!?) are (perhaps deliberately) very vague and mostly implied - except when Ansem is reminded to his face about how he "sacrificed countless children" and he doesn't deny it, which is bizarrely direct for this particular plot point.

Honestly, that's a topic for a whole thread.

 

[palizinhas]

I would give Axel and Isa (and Ienzo) some leeway due to them seemingly being victims of the older characters, although the details about Radiant Garden's systemic child abuse (!?!?!?!?) are (perhaps deliberately) very vague and mostly implied - except when Ansem is reminded to his face about how he "sacrificed countless children" and he doesn't deny it, which is bizarrely direct for this particular plot point.

Honestly, that's a topic for a whole thread.

I don't think they were implying there that Ansem the Wise killed children in Radiant Garden? It was a reference to him allowing Subject X to be studied by Xehanort as well as what he did to Roxas and Naminé. "Countless children" isn't an actual quote.

Most of the experimentation in RG happened being his back and after the Apprentices banished him. He certainly wasn't innocent, but he also wasn't a mass murderer.

 

[Chie]

I didn't say he killed them, and neither did he "kill" the kids you mentioned, so nobody's really saying that, although children dying in the experiments isn't impossible either.

Different sources shift the culpability around between Xehanort and Ansem. Ansem himself says he ordered the experiments be stopped because Subject X disappeared; Xehanort's own written account on the other hand suggests that Ansem ordered the experiments be stopped when he saw Xehanort doing them at all, which resulted in Subject X's disappearance. Of course, we know that part of this confusion is because we know that Xigbar took her away without the other two knowing. But according to his own recollection of the timeline, at some point in all this Ansem was relatively okay with keeping the familyless child in a cage.

Contradictory accounts (a true bilingual scholar might want to look at the Japanese text here), but there's many more points to this theme that I do plan on writing up.

 

[Elysium]

And yet Isa is just as bad as Ansem the Wise and the apprentices (In some cases worse) and not only is he allowed free pass to not only Twilight Town and Destiny Islands, but to hang out with kids he abused, manipulated, and plotted/tried to murder. So that's a double standard if they aren't invited but he is.

Well, Saix actually acted to repair harm. Only Vexen of the Apprentices did that, as far as I know? But I don't see Ansem the Wise as being as bad as the Apprentices, the latter nearly wiped out the universe. And I believe Ansem the Wise did try to repair his actions to some degree, as revealed in Coded's ending, I believe it was Coded?

 

[SweetYetSalty]

I would give Axel and Isa (and Ienzo) some leeway due to them seemingly being victims of the older characters, although the details about Radiant Garden's systemic child abuse (!?!?!?!?) are (perhaps deliberately) very vague and mostly implied - except when Ansem is reminded to his face about how he "sacrificed countless children" and he doesn't deny it, which is bizarrely direct for this particular plot point.

Honestly, that's a topic for a whole thread.

The thing is being victims doesn't give them the right to go out and make victims of their own and treat people like shit. I hold them accountable for their actions regardless what their past was like because if that's the case then any character with a bad childhood can justify being a villain too. This really should be it's own topic thread because I have more to say on it. But my main point is, if we are barring characters from going to the beach because they were previously villains who tortured kids, we already have a guy on the beach who tormented kids. If he's welcome anyone not named Xehanort should have access.

Well, Saix actually acted to repair harm. Only Vexen of the Apprentices did that, as far as I know? But I don't see Ansem the Wise as being as bad as the Apprentices, the latter nearly wiped out the universe. And I believe Ansem the Wise did try to repair his actions to some degree, as revealed in Coded's ending, I believe it was Coded?

Ienzo did a lot in KH3 to make up for what he did, which is kind of funny considering he didn't do too much villain work to begin with. Even/Vexen did as well. I guess nobody really cares about Aeleus and Dilan at this point. Though I would love to see a humbled Dilan go to Beast's Castle and try to make amends with Belle and the Beast. I don't even think Riku has apologized to any Disney character he crossed paths with in KH1. That would have been interesting.

 

[Face My Fears]

They both were teenagers in BBS 12 years earlier, so they are in their late 20s now. I don't see any retcon here.
By the way, I think we should use the name Axel instead of Lea, since he said himself that he prefers it. It also makes sense, because Lea is a female name and Axel is obviously a man.

The answer to the thread title question is, because Roxas invited them. Considering the history between the two, Riku is not in position to argue with him. Also, does Riku even know about the concept of World Order? And if he does, why would he care about it?

I believe BEFORE BbS was released, it was alluded to Axel being in his late teens (outside of the game since they never mention his age in the game).

When did Lea (pronounced LEE) say that he preferred Axel?

The point I'm trying to make is Ansem, Dilan, Aeleus, Even and Ienzo are no worse then Isa and Lea, two characters who get far too much lenience and get off relatively easy despite their crimes, though at least Lea had something of a onscreen arc, bad as it was. I'd argue Ansem the Wise is the second most redeemed character behind Riku. It's not that they were not invited because the heroes hold a grudge, we see how disgustingly forgiving the heroes are no matter how heinous the villains are to them. Ansem's crew might not even like the beach and prefer to stay in their lab, they have their own thing going on separate from Sora's group.

Ansem is definitely worse than all of them. Dilan, Aeleus and Ienzo are not as bad as Isa and Lea. Even is maybe on Isa and Lea's level.

Well if Ansem and his group don't like the beach, then why not have a separate party with them at the Radiant Garden castle with Leon and his friends?

 

[LoneFox]

I believe BEFORE BbS was released, it was alluded to Axel being in his late teens (outside of the game since they never mention his age in the game).

But that was just some fans' misunderstanding, wasn't it? And in many cases, it was an intentional one, because they wanted to ship Axel/Roxas and didn't want to have awkward age difference between them.

When did Lea (pronounced LEE) say that he preferred Axel?

He asked Kairi to call him Axel when they were training together. I think he said it somewhere else as well, but I can't find it. He also uses it himself, as in "No-one axes Axel."

 

[Chie]

I hold them accountable for their actions regardless what their past was like because if that's the case then any character with a bad childhood can justify being a villain too.

What I'm getting at here isn't just "they were hurt and then hurt others", but that their "hurting others" was under the express orders of the people who hurt them and were still actively hurting them.

Ienzo, Lea and Isa all joined the castle crew as children (not with any choice in Ienzo's case), and stayed with them as they became the Organization, something they also had seemingly little choice in. They remained there for most of their lives. If you were brought into a cult from a young age by a bunch of adults, and in at least Ienzo's case had no other family to speak of, and they were deliberately manipulating you and lying to you, what else would you know how to do other than what they tell you? How else can you function in that situation?

Sadly, this is how group abuse and cults work in real life.

 

[SweetYetSalty]

Ansem is definitely worse than all of them. Dilan, Aeleus and Ienzo are not as bad as Isa and Lea. Even is maybe on Isa and Lea's level.

Well if Ansem and his group don't like the beach, then why not have a separate party with them at the Radiant Garden castle with Leon and his friends?

Honestly I'd put Even on the other apprentices level. He hasn't really done anything onscreen. We can only go by what we're told about the experiments they did in the castle. As for why not have a Radiant Garden party, why do the heroes need to party with Ansem's crew? They barely know them. Again, these are grown men likely more concerned with restoring their world then partying on the beach with some kids. As funny as it would be to see Dilan and Aeleus on the beach looking out of place and not talking lol.

What I'm getting at here isn't just "they were hurt and then hurt others", but that their "hurting others" was under the express orders of the people who hurt them and were still actively hurting them.

Ienzo, Lea and Isa all joined the castle crew as children (not with any choice in Ienzo's case), and stayed with them as they became the Organization, something they also had seemingly little choice in. They remained there for most of their lives. If you were brought into a cult from a young age by a bunch of adults, and in at least Ienzo's case had no other family to speak of, and they were deliberately manipulating you and lying to you, what else would you know how to do other than what they tell you? How else can you function in that situation?

Sadly, this is how group abuse and cults work in real life.

I get it, but I stand by what I said about them. And we've seen Axel/Lea and Saix/Isa do plenty of shit without direct orders from Xemnas, due to their own desires or pettiness. This really should be it's own topic thread by my point here is if Saix/Isa is all forgive and allowed on the beach then anyone in the series who was once a villain and "atoned" should be as well. And I'd argue Ansem, Ienzo, and even Even have done more to earn it too.